Some of those points are fair enough HAG. There was a lot of greed about and there were indeed those, in both private & public sector, who tried to make a fast buck out of the property market and some have nobody to blame but themselves and their own greed. However lending practices were a bit dodgy to say the least as the banks were only too happy to hand over 100's of thousands without real regulation or checks of the circumstances to those they were lending too. Of course there has to be a banking system but what happened to the free market and the capitalist mantra of letting it find it's own level? When thousands are dumped on to the dole because of the 'free market' you don't hear too many calls from them for government intervention BECAUSE then it's called SOCIALISM. However when the private sector f**ks up and cries for government intervention it's called NECESSITY. HYPOCRISY how are ye? NO don't allow the private sector to waste BILLIONS and then expect the public sector to take the hits. EVERY public sector employee has a DUTY to stand up and say NO.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9825 - 10/12/2009 23:44:35    510409

10/12/2009 22:58:29
Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 1425

510369 Most low wage slave driven private sector workers will not be content until public sector employees are as downtrodden and unhappy as them. The private sector knows it gets a raw deal but doesn't have the backbone or balls to take on their wealthy profit driven employers. REMEMBER this is the same private sector that f**ked the property market up, destroyed the banking system, whose massive profit margins are killing the retail and tourist industries AND ensured that many many decent Southern citizens have to go North to make ends meet and feed their families. YET they still have the gall and bloody cheek to tell the public sector to shut up and take ALL the hits for the ROTTEN, CORRUPT dealings of the private sector.It is no wonder that people have had enough and are rebelling. The Dublin government has just pumped 60 Billion into the banking system to bail it out and STILL these corporate banking fools want to award themselves MILLION Euro bonuses. GET OFF YOUR KNEES AND SPEAK OUT! RISE, MARCH ON LEINSTER HOUSE AND TELL THEM, TELL THEM!
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Lets have a revolution and overthrow the private sector employers and give ourselves 50% pay rises. Lets also give the public sector another 50% in case they feel left out. Lets leave the banks go bust.

1. Who will we sell to if we increase wages by 50% and prices we can't compete with the UK/north as it is
2. Who will lend money to us - No banks left
3. Who will pay the taxes - No profits
4. Where will the wages come from - Cant borrow and no sales
5. Who will contact Bob geldof and let him know we need help

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 10/12/2009 23:45:05    510412

As regards who caused the recession yes the banks are to blame and yes the property developers are to blame but what about

1. The banking regulators
2. The planners
3. The town councils
4. The government strategists
5. The department of finance and its property tax incentives
6. The politicians

All Private sector ???

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 10/12/2009 23:51:54    510423

dhorse, i will vote for an independent next time. Look what Jackie Healy-Rae has succeeded in achieving .... a 42 bed hospital for some remote town in Kerry and Dermot Ahern has colluded in the running down and possibly closing of the hospital in Dundalk. A T.D. in Galway has had a meeting with Brian Cowan and came out smiling like a cat that got the cream. The govt at the moment is the Independents and the Greens, just look at the carbon tax and the water rates coming in in 2011. The whole thing is crazy. The actual thing that annoys me most is that the Private Sector should have rowed in behind the Public Sector protests as a strong P.S. would have helped them in the long run but they let themselves be used by the likes of I.B.E.C. and they will be targets yet again in 2010, just wait and see !! Divide and conquor worked for the Govt and I.B.E.C. Don't get me wrong i have a lot of family members in the Private Sector but they actually protested against our cuts as they knew it would effect them later if we were cut !! On a personal note i recently got a three day week which suits me and will not be effected too badly by the cuts but i have deep sympathy for those who have in both sectors and that is why i believe in protest !! If we let them walk on us they won't stop !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 00:05:07    510433

Ulsterman Sorry i'm not getting you how did the whole private section **** as you call it there was a minority and also a minority in the public sector i.e no proper regulation.... effect 200,000 private sector now on the dole queue thus less tax to pay for the private sector so therefore therefore their needs to be cuts there no? Banking sector and government are most to blame but also everyone both private and public are to blame too, we should have been more like the german's their savings propped up our borrowing. We've got a lot from the e.u and basically i think what they'll saying is sort it our or get out and we need the e.u now more than ever. Again it the banking sector that called for intervention that's not the whole private sector.... me and 200,000 like me have got no intervention. I not getting the point your making.... sorry i not being smart about it or anything.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 00:17:29    510443

Fair enough rua but behind many of those public sector workers and departments you had politicians hanging over and threatening them. Ultimately local councils and their planning authorities were/are at the mercy of councillors and TD's and that unfortunately is how local and national politics work in Ireland. It is basically rotten to the core as EVERY decision in the public sector is/has effectively been made because of political influence brought on by private sector interests. I would never say that there are NOT those in the public sector who weren't bought off but effectively the corruption and dodgy dealing of the private sector has brought Ireland to it's knees. That is indisputable!

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9825 - 11/12/2009 00:34:01    510456

Where will protest find 4 billion??? have a read of this http://www.bankruptcy.ie/articles/2/1/The-Bankrupt-Irish-Economy/Page1.html "According to ESRI, wage increases for the public sector mean the average public-sector worker now earns 20% more than their private-sector counterpart, as well as enjoying job security and a state-guaranteed pension linked to final salary." "1997:public-sector employment soared, and in the same period the public-sector pay bill doubled from EUR10bn to EUR20bn" ok in the boom times that could be supported it just cannot be supported now. You want people to wade in behind and bankrupt the country, where will that leave simple fact is there is new 200000 private sector on the dole there will be little or no job cuts in the public sector so how else will savings be made. It's easy to say its it there government fault they made the boom got greeded as did everyone hard times call for the majority to be effected that's whats happening and happened. Best way to protest is with your vote and stop the stupid antics (strikes ballots etc.) its doing no-one any good.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 00:53:54    510467

Hag & Cheese, the ratio of public sector workers to population is quite similar to that of many other countries so the need to expand was necessary. I agree with you that they cannot be sacked and that it is a safe job but when the shoe was on the other foot i did not hear anyone in the Private Sector complaining. It was mentioned again this morning on the radio (P*at Kenny) how only a small percentage of Private Sector workers actually suffered cuts. I know many lost jobs through employers re-locating - bigger profits, but that is not our fault !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 11:01:30    510602

slasher:

But the wage ratio is not!!! similar positions in the u.k pay half the wages and do not say that the cost of living here is twice that of the u.k. My point is the complaining about the cuts when they simply had to be made.

That 70 percent you talk about is from a irish times poll i think, in taking samples you need to ask what sectors they were taken from also and also the question that was asked. I not sure what sectors were sampled but question was asked to people still working in the private sector "Where you effected by pay cuts" 70% said no because companies saved money by shedding jobs as the 200000 new private sector people on the dole were any of the surveyed?? Your not addressing the total bias of such a survey. The public sector will not shed jobs so its obvious savings have to be made in pay cuts.... it simple economics.

Tell me why the OECD said this?

"THE Government was advised yesterday to cut the numbers working in the public sector and reduce pay in line with the private sector. " Think they might know what their talking about instead of a straw pole.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 12:22:30    510694

slasher:

"how only a small percentage of Private Sector workers actually suffered cuts" me and the 200000 private sector workers would take that as an insult!!!! 100% pay cuts not count??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 12:31:49    510711

slasher also i asked this question 4 or 5 times now still no answear. where else could the savings have been made?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 12:39:46    510721

Hag & Cheese, The Public Sector are taking the hit too. The Embargo has been seriously effecting numbers and will do till 2011 at least. Over 2,000 teachers, 1,500 garda, none of the newly trained nurses will get employment here and many have already left. Its not all one way you know as by the time 2011 arrives there will have been a serious decrease in numbers. Next year 2,000 teachers will retire and the same in the garda where the college is now completely empty and this is not to mention health where many have retired and will not be replaced !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 12:40:13    510723

11/12/2009 12:31:49
HAG_AND_CHEESE
County: Tipperary
Posts: 1969

510711 slasher:

"how only a small percentage of Private Sector workers actually suffered cuts" me and the 200000 private sector workers would take that as an insult!!!! 100% pay cuts not count??
___________________
Slasher

did you read the CSO report ? We've had this argument before the average wage in the private sector is not down due to the simple fact that many of the jobs that have been lost have been in blue collar or service. however that does not mean that the majority of private sector workers have not taken paycuts. The average wage in financial services is down 10%. Anyone on a DC pension has lost 40% of their pension fund. I don't know anyone in the private sector that has not had a paycut and/or a reduction in bonus and/or a signicant reduction in pension fund.

The total wages paid to private sector workers is 20% lower than it was 2 years ago. I'm not saying thats the public sector's fault but its hardly a reason to support strikes that if succesful will increase the tax burden on every worker.

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 11/12/2009 12:42:06    510724

Hag & Cheese, it should have been done by across the board taxes as the very rich have still not had any hit. Like a married couple, no kids, earning 160,000 and no hit at all says everything !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 12:52:03    510736

slasher what about the 40,000 graduates from colleges and also secondary school leavers than can't get a job in the private sector??

"2,000 teachers will retire" do you mean retire and go back working in schools again. 3 teachers in my area did that exact thing. So the public sector isn't greedy at all then.

yes they should have been cut but what percentage of the population make this sort of money that will not give you the 4 billion. Taxation of higer income is on par with many countries other taxation levels are well below so to say the taxing the higher income is the solution is false. This budget was about spending cuts lenihan said this in july so really there's no major surprises.

Again I'm getting blue in the face from saying it we can't support a public sector like the boom times as the money is not there do you not understand this.... ye don't want job cuts ye don't want pay cuts, but you say that taxing the small proportion of high earners will find 4 billion??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 13:18:03    510759

taxes had the hit in the last budget!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 13:22:02    510764

Cavan_Slasher

" I agree with you that they cannot be sacked "

If anyone thinks for one minute that you cant be sacked from your job I strongly suggest you think again. If your face no longer fits or you misbehave yourself your employment can be terminated forth with. The onus then shifts onto you as to what action if any you will take against your employer. You may decide to seek recompense for wrongful or unfair dismissal or you you may choose to seek reinstatement or re-engagement. It is extremely rare for either reinstatement or re-engagement to be awarded in the event of an unfair dismissal claim being upheld. And by the way the maximum compensation that can be awarded is 104 weeks or 2 years remuneration and this is also very rare.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 11/12/2009 13:42:21    510789

Hag & Cheese, i have asked that very question of a headmaster i know. The reason that teachers are going back on a part-time basis is because these are the only people who will do 1 or max 2 hours every second or third day. These kinds of hours are no good to anyone else and the headmaster has a defined budget which will only cover that amount. It would not be worth anyones time working 3 or 4 hours only when needed so the retired people are filling in. Thats the answer i got right or wrong !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 13:58:23    510802

slasher:

I think the graduates you talked of would love those 3 or 4 hours??

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 11/12/2009 14:15:34    510831

BartleDoo, ok i meant laid off !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 11/12/2009 14:30:15    510854