Firstly
I did'nt think the budget was fair. I felt that everyone needed to take a bit of pain including public sector workers. However People on good income in the private sector should have got some element of a hit maybe by brinding down the entry point for the top tax band etc.

however looking at it from a public sector viewpoint if I wanted to blame anyone I would blame the unions that you pay your dues to.

1. At the last budget in March Lenihan says the next budget would focus on cutting spending
2. In July Lenihan tells Europe that he is goiing to save 4 billion in the budget
3. In July Lenihan says in the radio and press that he is not going to cut taxes
4. In August a ESRI report comes out stating that PS salaries are much higher than Europe
5. Somehwere in the middle of that you have the Mccarthy report

Now I'm no spindoctor but it was fairly clear where things were going - When did the unions decide to strike NOVEMBER.

so I think you need to ask the union bosses

1. What did they not understand about what Lenihan was hinting at
2. What did they do from March to November
3. As their salaries are pegged to Assistant Sec General level are they taking a 15% pay cut

IT WAS TOO LATE IN NOVEMBER AND ITS DEFINETLY TOO LATE NOW

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 10/12/2009 18:19:01    509987

Right ireland is at deficit 13% GDP, European Union's Stability and Growth Pact says it should be 3%. I aggree the government is to blame but my protest will be with my vote the next time around. So why can't the picket on their free time instead depriving the public (of which they should be serving) of services they need if they feel so bad about it. The only one's taking the brunt of it are the public which is ironic really. I have a lot more respect for them if they did that.

The majority picketed for an hour when strike action was taken, that's not really striking to me.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 18:37:50    510015

Ruanua, Do you think there will be industrial action as it looks like it. I think that if there is it will not take the form of street protests as that would mean losing wages. It will be along the lines of non-cooperation and everyone just going by job descriptions and doing nothing else. According to the news the garda are taking their ballot. I have already said what they would do to disrupt big events, not use their own personal phones and not take calls at home etc. How do you see it panning out as you are usually near the mark ?

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/12/2009 18:51:26    510028

Hag, there will be No strike, they seem to have other ways !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/12/2009 18:52:32    510030

Fair enough slasher, I thought you meant that the Government was going to target the private sector.

Private sector wages have already come down, but I agree that they are likely to be more cuts in store. How much will probably depend on how the economy performs in the next 3-months.

I agree with rua on the budget seeming to be unfair in some parts. The tax bands should have been reduced in line with the fall in the CPI. It would have meant more people paying tax at higher rates, and would at the very least have meant that the budget didn't exclusively seem to focus on the public sector.
I think the move the ensure that wealthy non-residents make a contribution to the exchequer if they want to keep their passports is quite a sensible move, as it will ensure that these tax exiles contribute something, but I would have liked to see the residency limit brought in a bit. It's crazy that someone can spend 182 days a year in the state and still be non-resident.
I think the social welfare cuts for U25s were needed, but I would have liked to see some form of scheme (grants or otherwise) brought in to further incentivise a return to education for young people. Bring in a some-form of clawback mechanism to ensure that courses are completed and that way the grants won't just turn into a dole substitute.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 10/12/2009 19:13:29    510079

Slasher

So you agree that sector such and police and healthcare workers should take action taking away vital emergance public services?? I mean it in the constitution that policing can't be withdrawn and inciting this like what's being proposed with the gardai taking a ballot is a criminal offence can be punishable with up to 5 years prison i think.... What is going on is just creating a bigger public sector private sector divide.

Interesting that you didn't point any of the implications of the budget on any other part except the public sector?? I know this is harsh but i was surprised that social welfare wasn't cut more it's still alot more than most countries. I do think younger people being cut was harsh they should have given an incentive to return to education (dole based on results actually working for the dole then) instead of total cuts I'm not saying that because i'm in that age bracket it's a long time since i was under 25.

It should be accepted move make sure finna fail don't get back in, everyone including myself were happy to sit back in the good times and live off an economy fueled by construction. Ask yourself how many times have you commented about the price of house saying the ar** will fall out of that eventually well low and behold that's what's happened. Ireland isn't really used to boom times like then at least hopefully lessons have been learned. Granted blame the government but some of the blame lies with us too.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 19:39:48    510109

Hag & Cheese, i believe that workers have to fight for their pay and conditions. I also think that they are entitled to refuse to use their own phones and do overtime to suit the Govt. That is not breaking any rules at all. I agree that dole is higher here than in many countries but so is the cost of living. When we joined the "one market" i also thought that v.r.t., v.a.t. etc would be the same all over but our crowd ripped us off. I do not want to see anyone suffering but my point is that the high earners are escaping all the time. There was a man on the Joe Duffy show today who said that he and his wife earned 80,000 each in the Private Sector and the budget took nothing at all from them and that they never had a pay cut either. Yet people on very little have to pay. Is this fair ? I am actually getting it hard to wait for the general election to get this crowd out !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/12/2009 20:24:32    510158

i took a 30% pay cut at the start of last year,and was on a 3 day week on top of that,luckily im back on a 5 day week,but was informed today that i wont have any work for at least all of jan.i know for a fact that the bussiness im working in is losing money on every job it does.the private sector is easily taking twice the hit the PS are.cop on,and get on with it.

shapes42 (Cavan) - Posts: 383 - 10/12/2009 20:25:03    510159

Same old story, 'get the money you need, but dont take it out of my pocket'. There are 300,000 people now unemployed that were recently in the private sector, surely its only fair that those in the public sector take a similar hit. Of second houses being sold in the last 12 months, something like 80% are being bought by those in the public sector. That tells you all you need to know

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 10/12/2009 20:41:34    510176

shapes, did the Public Sector cause your trouble ? No, i didn't think so but to read your post would give the impression they did !! You just sit back and take so they will come after you again !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/12/2009 20:52:04    510185

The Master, seeing that you like statistics 70% of the Private Sector took NO hit !! Not that i want them to either !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 10/12/2009 21:16:25    510215

Think it of this way who are ye serving the government or the public.... grand protest in a way that dosen't effect the country in a bad way, as public servants ye have a duty to serve the public. Ok to save money what would you say to mass layoffs within the public sector the simple fact is its cuts or layoffs. And don't say the government owe ye, ye did ok in the boom times and don't even try to mention benchmarking you can't effectively benchmark against the private sector the top 10% make most of the money not the way as much in the public sector.

Dole is nearly twice as high as u.k (correct me if i'm wrong) yet we don't have twice the cost of living?? Also the cost of living has fallen by about 10-11% (i'm not fully sure about that) so would a 10% dole cut be then justified??

Yes i agree they should be taxed more but taxing of higher income is probably on a part with most economies taxing of mid and low income still well below many countries. Also you say that they weren't touched by the budget but what about the private sector pay cuts and job losses, they might be 2 of the few lucky people.
I don't mean to blow my own trumpet but before i was let go i helped out when needed took unpaid leave took pay cuts when asked as i knew the company was in trouble and wanted to hold on to my job.... lets flip it to the public sector the country is in financial trouble can they not help out.
Have a look what's going on in the greek financial crisis we aint so far behind them!!

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 21:16:54    510216

Also in no way bigging up the government as they are most to blame for getting us in this state but

"As the Minister was exhorting people to accept the tough decisions that he believes will allow the Irish economy to continue on the road to recovery, the Greeks were coming to terms with the unthinkable prospect of defaulting on their sovereign debt. And to rub salt in their wounds even ahead of the Minister's Budget speech, Ireland - that other sick boy of the European Union - is being held up as an example of the path the Greeks need to take.

Even before Mr Lenihan's speech yesterday, one EU official was citing Ireland in media reports as an example of a country that was biting the bullet and making draconian spending cuts, including reducing public sector pay and pensions, to cope with the impact of the financial crisis."

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 21:22:37    510225

Slasher, None of us Joe Soaps caused the problem. But all the pay rises and Welfare increases which we all enjoyed for the past decade came on the back of this unsustainable bubble that we are all now cribbing about. We are still better off now then we were at the start of the Celtic Tiger. This year the cost of living has come down, previous pay increases were based on an increase in the Cost of Living Index so with the cost of living falling it is not unreasonable that pay should track it. I do agree however that the tax bands should have been changed and that more people should have been brought into the tax band. However if that had been done this time Public Servants would have been caught there too and suffered a double whammy. My guess is that it will happen next year along with Property and Water Charges and this new Universal Levy to replace PRSI and Health and Income Levies. The reality is that regardless of what Public Servants do this will not be reversed simply because if the Government did buckle, the International Financial Markets would surely recognise us as a basket case and wash their hands of us completely.

corkcelt (Cork) - Posts: 4388 - 10/12/2009 21:29:10    510235

Slasher

Interesting is that 70% of the people still employed in private sector (that have had pay cuts) or dose the 30% effected include people that were laid off... if the public sector was a company that just wanted to even breakeven there would layoffs left right and center. The private sector is a lot more brutal than the public sector you take risks work wise hence there are benefits when things go well when things go bad you loose your job.

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 21:34:26    510251

Ruanua, Do you think there will be industrial action as it looks like it. I think that if there is it will not take the form of street protests as that would mean losing wages. It will be along the lines of non-cooperation and everyone just going by job descriptions and doing nothing else. According to the news the garda are taking their ballot. I have already said what they would do to disrupt big events, not use their own personal phones and not take calls at home etc. How do you see it panning out as you are usually near the mark ?

____________________
Slasher don't tempt me with posts like that - I don't want to raise the hackles so I won't make the obvious comment- I'LL leave it to DHORSE !!

Seriously though ITS TOO LATE. I don't honestly think that come next february that the public sector would get a majority for a work to rule. Its a bit like the Henry handball - time to move on. The union leaders should be sacked and make sure you have guys that don;t get outmanouvered next time round. Also its fairly clear that the unions can get a voice with Cowen and Coughlan. Make your point there - harney and Lenihan are better at playing hardball.

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 10/12/2009 21:55:14    510274

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 3501

510030 Hag, there will be No strike, they seem to have other ways !!

True, the dail Ushers could do their work in the nude on mondays.
Clerical Officers might refuse to share their kit kat with senior clerical officers.
Planning officers might refuse to take a weeks special leave to brush up on irish.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 10/12/2009 22:12:59    510309

Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 3501

I am actually getting it hard to wait for the general election to get this crowd out !!

In reality slasher, who do you think would do it any differently.

dhorse (Laois) - Posts: 11374 - 10/12/2009 22:16:55    510316

Most low wage slave driven private sector workers will not be content until public sector employees are as downtrodden and unhappy as them. The private sector knows it gets a raw deal but doesn't have the backbone or balls to take on their wealthy profit driven employers. REMEMBER this is the same private sector that f**ked the property market up, destroyed the banking system, whose massive profit margins are killing the retail and tourist industries AND ensured that many many decent Southern citizens have to go North to make ends meet and feed their families. YET they still have the gall and bloody cheek to tell the public sector to shut up and take ALL the hits for the ROTTEN, CORRUPT dealings of the private sector.It is no wonder that people have had enough and are rebelling. The Dublin government has just pumped 60 Billion into the banking system to bail it out and STILL these corporate banking fools want to award themselves MILLION Euro bonuses. GET OFF YOUR KNEES AND SPEAK OUT! RISE, MARCH ON LEINSTER HOUSE AND TELL THEM, TELL THEM!

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9825 - 10/12/2009 22:58:29    510369

slasher
one more thing "When we joined the "one market" i also thought that v.r.t., v.a.t. etc would be the same all over but our crowd ripped us off." so what about corporate tax then if that was the same there would never have been a celtic tiger

Ulsterman
Can't agree with that dose the banking sector comprise the whole private sector, you might make the arguement that they took the money well so did public sector people some are saying they can't pay mortgages that means they borrowerd too much too. You can't just blame the whole private sector. The problem was there was little or no regulation and an economy based mainly on construction. As much as i hated seening the banks being bailed out it had to be done or the same thing that happened in iceland. I've seen people complaining here but little giving an alternative on how 4 billion savings could otherwise have been found?

Hag_and_Cheese (Tipperary) - Posts: 6103 - 10/12/2009 23:15:46    510389