RMDrive, I know what you mean but you just can't make Public Sector workers redundant just to please the Private sector either. What is happening now in the Public Sector is that people who are retiring are not being replaced, which will in turn run down the numbers in this sector. No new nurses, teachers, garda etc until 2011 at least. I believe there are 2,000 teachers who have left or are leaving before the end of the year, 1,000 garda, and as the recent Prime Time programme has shown all the nurses trained this year have gone to other countries. So the Public Sector has and is being hit !! A relation of mine is a Garda and he says that the Govt are playing down the numbers who have left in case there is a huge rise in crime (which usually comes with a recession) and a public outcry, plus they have nearly a complete overtime ban (only emergencies) no crime scene etc on weekends !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/11/2009 15:32:14    494925

26/11/2009 15:32:14 Cavan_Slasher County: Cavan Posts: 3308 494925 RMDrive, I know what you mean but you just can't make Public Sector workers redundant just to please the Private sector either. What is happening now in the Public Sector is that people who are retiring are not being replaced, which will in turn run down the numbers in this sector. No new nurses, teachers, garda etc until 2011 at least. I believe there are 2,000 teachers who have left or are leaving before the end of the year, 1,000 garda, and as the recent Prime Time programme has shown all the nurses trained this year have gone to other countries. So the Public Sector has and is being hit !! A relation of mine is a Garda and he says that the Govt are playing down the numbers who have left in case there is a huge rise in crime (which usually comes with a recession) and a public outcry, plus they have nearly a complete overtime ban (only emergencies) no crime scene etc on weekends !! Yeah but what's needed in that case is a reshuffle. Put the people from planning (as an example) doing some of the desk work that ties up Gardai. Move people around. You have admitted yourself that there is an excess of people in certain areas (e.g. the HSE). I know that this will not be possible in all cases but in the vast majority, it should be. It's not enough that the wage bill is cut. Where is the other 22 billion going to come from? Part (and I emphasise PART) will have to come from the PS absorbing natural attrition without replacement. That will demand flexibility and creative thinking.

RMDrive (Donegal) - Posts: 2202 - 26/11/2009 16:00:49    494980

the 16th man:

After seven pages someone makes sense....maith an fear!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13830 - 26/11/2009 16:16:38    494996

I have to say that I think that the arguments have gotten far too confrontational in this debate lately. All that does is play into the hands of union chiefs who want to consolidate their power, and the Government who want to distract people from their own failings. From my own debates with posters, and from reading others I have reached the following conclusions: The majority agree that the current level of spending is unsustainable. There is significant disagreement on whether increased taxes are the way forward. Equally well, there is no consensus on whether public sector pay cuts should be implemented. Nearly everyone seems to agree that there is significant excess at the administrative/middle-management level of the public sector, with overloaded bureaucracy being the prime driver of this excess. The vast majority of us seem to agree that the number of front line workers (nurses, guards, teachers, etc.) should not be cut, but their is disagreement as to whether their pay should be impacted. So, would everyone on here agree that the first move the Government should make is to streamline the bureacracy that exists within the public sector? Cut the bloated levels of middle-management and paper pushers, and then see if what level of further action is required. I personally believe this is the way forward, but I don't believe the Government have the cajones to do so - the unions would kick up stink and the Government would crawl back into their shell.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 26/11/2009 16:23:07    495005

The_16th_Man "I'm a teacher and the strike is absolutely ridiculous. I stood for my few hours in the rain in limerick with my colleagues but i realise that it is pointless striking without public support." "I am willing to take a pay cut, as are the vast majority of teachers" Why on earth did you stand out in the rain for a few hours picketing when you believe that striking is ridiculous. Do many of your colleagues feel likewise or are you alone in your views ?. I'm interested to know if there are teachers out there young ones in particular who are being pressurised to some extent by there union/colleagues to partake in the protests . Are some teachers afraid to speak out openly and publicly about how they actually feel for fear of reprisals from their union /colleagues . You say that you are willing to take a pay cut as are the vast majority of your teacher colleagues. This is news to me because as I understood it teachers were not prepared to take a pay cut/pay freeze and that the threat to teachers pay, pensions and terms and conditions of employment were the reasons giving by the teachers union for the protests. Do you or any of your closest teacher colleagues feel that ye are being bullied/harassed by other members of your union or its leadership with regard to this matter?.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 26/11/2009 18:44:35    495221

Black & White, at last we are begining to agree on some things. Cut middle management and some top management and direct funds to the coalface for a better more efficient Public Service. Middle management are tripping over themselves in the H.S.E., one trying to out-do the other with nonsensical schemes. Its at middle and higher management that many of the problems lie in the Public Sector. Just look at the Clerical Sex Abuse Report released today. At the higher levels of the Garda it was found that they were too cosy with the top levels of the clergy and were hiding the truth to save the big men in the church. At the coalface the Judge found that the Garda on the ground were very dedicated and professional in their investigations and followed reported incidents through to the letter of the law. Makes the same point i was making all along !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 26/11/2009 19:59:27    495313

It's a case of one having to row in with what the more established members of staff are doing, 30years + (while still teaching only English Irish and Maths!) And as they did 30 years ago! Not bullying but unwritten rules and all that, ie it looks bad. I made my point and everyone in the staffroom knows exactly where i stand on the matter. Did not go down well but younger staff agree with me. I did not want to strike but out of what i can only call a sense of loyalty felt I had to man the picket. May I add that from 1pm on, as in when i got home, till 4 I was correcting copies and making out Christmas tests for my 6th class pupils and not in Newry or anywhere else. Swear to Jaysus if a reporter/ video camera/ microphone came near me last tuesday morning i haven't a clue what i'd say in order to make sense while trying to follow union statements. The two are worlds apart! Every teacher in the country knows that we must take a pay cut. Any of them who say otherwise are not living in reality. 5% is fair, anything more puts alot of people including me under an enormous amount of pressure, while others in the public sector top end could afford to have 100% cut and would be receiving a fair pay for their zero productivity. The ordinary teacher is not an enemy of the state. I note your kids seem to have had poor teacher experience but please do not tar us with the same brush. It is no secret that there are too many teachers who are skivers but it is very offensive to those of us who give our all for the job. I have bought copies, stationery, even English and irish dictionaries and calculators for kids in my class because "parents" wouldn't get them for their kids. I drive a 98 corolla and will be for quite a while! The bureaucratic institutions in health, education, planning should not only be the target of the private sector's outrage but of every hard working public sector worker as well. To answer your question, it's not bullying or pressure, rather a sense of loyalty to those who are struggling to make ends meet and to make a point against the government.

The_16th_Man (Clare) - Posts: 251 - 26/11/2009 20:50:51    495373

The_16th_Man
County: Clare
Posts: 121

______________
Fair play boss

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 26/11/2009 21:19:39    495433

Fair play 16th man. I also teach 6th class and was writing reports for parent teachers meetings Tues afternoon after I took my turn on the picket line. Following that, I left school at 7.25pm on Wed eve after the meetings and then attended a school related course until 9.30pm. I resent this public backlash because we're working hard for our wages! The problem is that too many teachers didn't vote at all so the YES vote carried. I don't want a cut in pay but would be more than willing to take a payfreeze for several years. It's frustrating!

BoyneView (Meath) - Posts: 60 - 26/11/2009 21:29:20    495449

The_16th_Man

Your my kinda teacher and I would have no difficulty having you to teach my kids. Don't be a fool with your money either by buying school stuff that cheeky parents blatantly refuse to buy for their kids.

I sincerely wish you the very best with your teaching career.

BartleDoo.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 26/11/2009 21:47:26    495474

As a student I think its ridicuolous havin me with a day of no work with my Xmas Exams next Monday DUNN DUN DUN

gaamad1996 (Wexford) - Posts: 439 - 26/11/2009 22:01:51    495502

Why don't the teachers stay on strike constantly if they want to prove a point..Their actions are only to get a day of to go shopping for xmas..Joke

tomaoo7 (Dublin) - Posts: 5896 - 26/11/2009 22:02:13    495503

BoyneView

Did the unions release the figures on how many votes were actually cast. I understand 79% of teachers were in favour of strike action. However if a large proportion of union members didn't vote I cant see how the union could say that they got a mandate from their members to engage in national protests.

Is it not accepted and agreed that the majority of union members have to participate in a secret ballot for the ballot to be official. Can anyone throw light on this.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 26/11/2009 22:08:19    495515

tomaoo7

That would be a last resort for the unions and a highly unlikely scenario. If for instance an all out strike were to take place then unions would have to pay out strike money to its members and lets say the government refuse to yield well the the union coffers would take one hell of a fleecing so this is not going to happen. The unions are not going to allow 'their funds' sorry their members funds be touched. The teachers are losing a days wages every day they protest Peter Mcloone and co their full time union representatives are not out of pocket on those days nor will they be.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 26/11/2009 22:37:15    495572

Without going into any great detail I can tell ye all now that my children's NS will be opening its doors on this Thursday 3rd Nov regardless of what happens at the talks between the Government and the unions.

Fair play to the teachers involved.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 01/12/2009 16:37:36    499585

BartleDoo, yes i also heard that. I think they got their rise !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 01/12/2009 18:24:37    499741

Cavan_Slasher

"I think they got their rise" !!

You're clearly jesticulating Slasher <):)

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 01/12/2009 18:55:36    499789