Cavan_Slasher
County: Cavan
Posts: 3200

483160
Patrique, very well said sir !!



My own Union, the biggest Public Sector union in the North, is trying to support private sector workers.

This is not just about jobs, this is about SERVICES, especially schools and hospitals.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 13/11/2009 23:07:09    483420

BartleDoo County: Monaghan Posts: 160 483299 Patrique, have you ever hear of the saying"An injury to one is a concern to all" I'm quite sure you have well let me say this the individual who first uttered those words would turn in his grave if he could now see how the fat cat union leaders who in good times turned their backs on the individual worker when they cosily sat around the table with employers their representatives and the government and subscribed to the 1990 Industrial Relations Act. I was a member of SIPTU for 15 years and prior to that I was a member of the ITGWU and my advice to anyone contemplating joining a union is DONT do it. I can clearly remember a bloke approaching me shortly after I commenced employment in one particular company,he shoved a union membership application form under my nose and told me to sign it. I was young back then and I didn't know what a union even was. I was giving a clear ultimatum by the bloke to sign the form or no one would work with me. I subsequently found out that the bloke was the head shop steward within the company who I may add always did what he liked, he did very little work and always got away with it as someone like myself would end up doing his work. The Unions bullying days are over as is its days of bullying members who may not agree with some of their policies and practices. Well, if we were all as soft as you. You know what I mean. I need to get ELECTED every year, if I was a a bully It wouldn't happen. I opposed the Social Contract, knew it wouldn't work. I know there are Fat cat Union leaders, and skivers and bullies, as in any walk of life. But a union is the members, and is only as strong as the members. I actually believe that, and MY members are the best informed members in Europe. If the membership is weak, you will get weak leaders.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 13/11/2009 23:11:21    483424

Thought I might ask a simple question.

Does anyone believe that the bosses/rulers will be defending YOUR jobs or services?

Just thought I would ask.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 13/11/2009 23:21:47    483437

BartleDoo, sorry but your original post refrers to a child who appears to be yours !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 14/11/2009 00:38:06    483488

Pack of Jokers!!

My youngest started in September. The class size is 24. My class was 40+ in size back in the 70s. My child's teacher so far has been out sick twice, we have had 1 week off for a mid-term and a day and a half off for a parent meeting and a staff meeting - all in the space of 9 weeks that the school is back. Soon we will have another couple of weeks off for Xmas before Easter is upon us with a sprinkling of holy days followed by a couple of months in the sun or, for most, working a bit on the side - giving grinds, jobbing abroad etc. - the kind of activities that a guaranteed 2 months leave in the summer affords you. My daughter's school have 7 language assistants (or whatever they are called) assigned to them this year. Even the principal joked about it!! How many classes are there?? 5!!

Please spare me this rubbish of class sizes and cut-backs. Where is the massive public outcry that INTO and TUI predicted as a result of the last budget cuts. Do we really need all of these extra schools now bearing in mind all of the emigration??? Class sizes are dropping in areas where schools were built to accommodate children of eastern europeans who were working in the buulding trade for example. Don't get me wrong I sumpathise with people livinf in isolated areas wheret he school is 5 miles away and the class size is over 35. My brother told me of a teacher in Bray who retired last year and this year has come back as a special needs teacher. Total size of her class this year 0. There are no special needs pupils this year in the school so money for jam. This sums up the public sector in general for me. No accountability, no management and no consequences. There is a bottomless pit of taxpayers money to be tapped into so let's just keep milking!!

As for the nurses, again please spare me. I work closely with the HSE and I see first hand what is going on. Let them emigrate if conditions (translate "pay" here) in other countries are better. Heaven forbid if they should actually have to pay 20% into a dying pension fund, take a 10% pay cut, risk getting the axe because of falling profits, receive 20 leave days a year and not get paid overtime and a myriad of allowances, like us who live in the real world.

It's time for teachers, nurses, guards, firemen, and the oversized dinosaur that is the administrative arm of the public sector, to get real. One only has to have watched the Late Late Show tonight to see what real people are going through and not these whingers who have been living a sheltered existence for the duration of their working lives.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4746 - 14/11/2009 00:57:16    483497

Does anyone believe that the bosses/rulers will be defending YOUR jobs

Patrique - I go into an interview for a welders job, for example.

I tell them I will only start work at 9 a.m. and I'm going home at 3 p.m. Every day. And absolutely no week-ends. Ever.
I want 3 months paid holidays in the Summer and a month off at Christmas. Also paid.
I want 3 mid-term breaks and enough sick-days to take a nice relaxing 2 week holiday in Alicante.
I want to be part of a bench-marking process that is basically "turn-up" money.
I also want to attend conferences where I can tell the world how harshly treated, underpaid and victimised I am.

In your opinion, what would be the first two little words the employer would say to me?

RAM85 (Westmeath) - Posts: 978 - 14/11/2009 08:29:08    483520

I have chistmas exams the following week but most of my subjects have work that is uncovered by my teachers yet and I think that this day is necessary. A day like this is not going to make biffo and co. want to make teachers get a raise

gaamad1996 (Wexford) - Posts: 439 - 14/11/2009 08:55:49    483523

13/11/2009 23:21:47
patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 5351
___________________
can I ask a question re union leadership

1. We had a budget in April where the Minister for finance increased taxes significantly and advised that next time round he would look at expenditure
2. We had economic forecasts doing the rounds in April / May suggesting 3.5% economic contraction in 2010 and possibly 14% unemployment
3. All monthly tax reports in May/June/July point towards a budget defecit of 2bn per month heading towards 13% of GDP which is 3 times EU requirement
4. Minister for finance goes on radio in july and does a "read my lips no more taxes speech"
5. Minister tells Europe that he will reduce rate of budget defecit by 4bn
6 Europe makes positive soundings and gives Ireland 12 months extension on coming back to defecit norms
7. Government starts talks about where exactly in Public sector/Social welfare or Child benefit 4bn cuts might arise which are the only pots big enough
8. Budget is planned for 9 December
9. Teachers decide to go on strike in Late November


Ie from a pro-union perspective - At what point above was it likely that Teachers salaries were going to be cut and at what point would it be appropriate to take action.


1. In April/May time when it was clear that the next action might be pay cuts
2. September when it was very clear that the next action would be pay cuts
3. 2 weeks before the budget when the pay cuts have probably been finalised.

What do union leadership do the 50 weeks of the year before the budget ?
Do they read the Newspapers
Do they understand economic trends
Are they worth the subscriptions

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 14/11/2009 09:15:25    483529

13/11/2009 22:27:46
Duffy89
County: Wexford
Posts: 1974

not much going down in your life anyway
________________________

Hmmm, saying that another person who posts on the same internet forum as yourself has a boring life. And that person has 1,400 less posts than you. That makes sense.

I wasn't the one posting posting on a thread about a band I had never even heard at half four the other morning either.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 14/11/2009 10:44:18    483554

Well, if we were all as soft as you.

You know what I mean. I need to get ELECTED every year, if I was a a bully It wouldn't happen.

I opposed the Social Contract, knew it wouldn't work.

I know there are Fat cat Union leaders, and skivers and bullies, as in any walk of life.

But a union is the members, and is only as strong as the members. I actually believe that, and MY members are the best informed members in Europe.

If the membership is weak, you will get weak leaders.


Patrique, I take that you are not a full time union official but instead you maybe a shop steward or the equivalent off. You say you need to get elected every year I'm glad you mentioned this because this is something that I have fairly good knowledge and experience of down through the years.
I have seen union representatives holding down positions for many years merely because nobody opposed them at election time. In cases like these I do not accept that these representatives have been elected by the members following a secret ballot therefore many shop stewards hold their positions by default. All anyone of these long time shop stewards need is two cronies, one to propose them and the other to second that proposal for them to get re-elected.

Many employers clearly do not like changes in union representatives as it's often a case of better the devil they know as change often spells trouble for many in a number of areas you should know what I mean without me having to spell it out. This also applies to the union itself as more often than not when changes occur in shop stewards it can pose many problems for the union but that is usually only short lived when the YES union people get working on them.

I can remember an occasion when a company I worked for wanted to change the terms and conditions of the union members employment. The union, the company and its representatives IBEC drew up this very comprehensive agreement which was seen by them as being the best way forward for everyone. The union leaders fully endorsed this document from the outset however the general membership rejected it as it was seen to contain many many flaws. This was a major set back for many giving the time and effort that had gone into preparing the document. This story is reminisce of the Lisbon Treaty in so many many ways. What happened next was the union communicated the result of the ballot back to the company the company advised the union that the decision taken by the union members was not being accepted and that unless they got the members to change their minds the company would pull all investment and move to England.

The unions full time reps and shop stewards subsequently scare the living daylights out of many of the members and I don't need to tell you what transpired thereafter. Strong union representatives can in my opinion break the spirits and resistance of the unions most hardcore members if and when the need rises and once that is done the rest is very easy.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 14/11/2009 11:54:04    483578

Cavan-Slasher, my point is that teachers earn more than most with all the nixers they do out of school hours. I believe it is wrong for them to use children as a means of securing that their pay and pensions are not affected at a time when everybody else has to put their shoulder to the wheel. Yes I do fork out 20 euro for grinds but I don't have to do it. I do because I want my child to have every opportunity that is going but that does not mean I believe that the school the child attends is not providing adequate education to the children. I basically want to go that wee bit extra and this teacher provides the service I and others like me want for the children.
Many teacher are earning far more than we know about and yet they complain and vote to go out on strike when they are asked to pull their weight.

BartleDoo (Monaghan) - Posts: 389 - 14/11/2009 12:47:31    483596

BartleDoo, yes i understand you now but the teachers already feel that they are pulling their weight. They are doing what they signed up to and its the Govt who are moving the goalposts now !!

Cavan_Slasher (Cavan) - Posts: 10253 - 14/11/2009 13:03:35    483606

RAM85
County: Westmeath
Posts: 735

483520
Does anyone believe that the bosses/rulers will be defending YOUR jobs

Patrique - I go into an interview for a welders job, for example.

I tell them I will only start work at 9 a.m. and I'm going home at 3 p.m. Every day. And absolutely no week-ends. Ever.
I want 3 months paid holidays in the Summer and a month off at Christmas. Also paid.
I want 3 mid-term breaks and enough sick-days to take a nice relaxing 2 week holiday in Alicante.
I want to be part of a bench-marking process that is basically "turn-up" money.
I also want to attend conferences where I can tell the world how harshly treated, underpaid and victimised I am.

In your opinion, what would be the first two little words the employer would say to me?



Try teaching.


They would then add, if you can cope with the stress, threats, abuse, preparation at home, unpaid time given to training/running sports teams so that the GAA can exist.

They would also say, if you fancy an easy life, be a welder.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 14/11/2009 13:47:35    483634

BartleDoo
County: Monaghan
Posts: 162


All anyone of these long time shop stewards need is two cronies, one to propose them and the other to second that proposal for them to get re-elected.

Many employers clearly do not like changes in union representatives as it's often a case of better the devil they know as change often spells trouble for many in a number of areas you should know what I mean without me having to spell it out.

Strong union representatives can in my opinion break the spirits and resistance of the unions most hardcore members if and when the need rises and once that is done the rest is very easy.


On your first point, all YOU need to win is three cronies, one to propose, one to second, and the third to outvote the incumbent.

On your second point, EMPLOYERS have no say in how a union organises, or shouldn't.

On your third point, if the union is run properly, if the members care enough, that scenario could not happen.

Unions are the same as politics. If you can ensure as many people as possible adopt a "what's the point of voting" attitude, and thereby few vote, you can eventually rule the world never mind a union.

The message is, rise up and resist.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 14/11/2009 13:53:55    483636

14/11/2009 10:44:18
nocky
County: Wexford
Posts: 583

483554 13/11/2009 22:27:46
Duffy89
County: Wexford
Posts: 1974

not much going down in your life anyway
________________________

Hmmm, saying that another person who posts on the same internet forum as yourself has a boring life. And that person has 1,400 less posts than you. That makes sense.

I wasn't the one posting posting on a thread about a band I had never even heard at half four the other morning either.



Did you think for a second that I had to do something at half 4 in the morning not that that's any of your business ??????

Duffy89 (Wexford) - Posts: 3320 - 14/11/2009 15:59:34    483719

Will all d universities nd third level b closed dat day?

tadhgo (Westmeath) - Posts: 50 - 14/11/2009 17:55:40    483800

A typical primary teacher, paid an average of €62,000 a year, will lose €170, before tax, for not working on November 24. For an average second-level teacher, on a slightly higher, salary of €67,000, the day's stoppage will mean a before-tax pay loss of €183.

are these figures true or false

david09 (Kildare) - Posts: 115 - 14/11/2009 23:03:23    483957

Yes I saw these figures too. I also saw af figure of €69,000 for a secondary schoold teacher with 20 years experience. Not bad for a few months work a year, guatanteed pension, 7 paid uncertified sick days a year, over 100 days holidays a year and a job for life. Strike!!!

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4746 - 15/11/2009 00:04:01    483995

how much does a teacher earn in the republic

10DLSAM (Derry) - Posts: 266 - 15/11/2009 09:43:13    484050

15/11/2009 09:43:13
ANYCAC
County: Derry
Posts: 177

484050 how much does a teacher earn in the republic
_____________________
with full service they get €65k odd plus Special duties allowance of €4k or €9k if they are classed as assistant to principal
Also an extra few grand dependant on the degree that they have
They get €50 an hour for supervising the "yard" during breaks
Though the biggest perk is that they retire at 55 rather than 65 and receive a pension for that period.
That is worth approx. €400k - The market cost of funding a pension like that would be about €25k per annum

All in including the value of the pension fund they are getting about €100k per annum
They work approx. 160 days a year (assuming no sick days) and work 6 hours a day so works out at about €120 an hour if you break it down

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 15/11/2009 11:34:51    484083