Datsrite I am not going to discus Sligo schools on this national forum as it is getting away from the point 'the value of schools football'.But i will have no problem with that on the Sligo forum.
Datsrite how can you say school football is a 'meaningless exercise'.??Have you ever played schools football??Do you leisten to Development officers???Or to you think they are wrong in saying getting coaches out is the way forward??
I feel giving students a break for sport is very important in schools.Even if games are not played every week coaches are still out in schools.Is that not a good thing or is it 'meaningless' too.

SLIGO111 (Sligo) - Posts: 73 - 17/11/2009 22:59:44    486829

datsrite, from what you say there seems to be a major problem in Sligo among smaller schools who have difficlulty in fulfilling fixtures - is this because of schools being unable to field a team, is there no teacher to take the team or what is the problem? Whatever the reason, the schools involved should not be entering competitions in the first place if they are going to be unable to fulfil fixtures. It doesn't make sense to enter a team into a competition when there is not enough interest within that school - a club wouldn't enter a second team into the Junior B championship if there wasn't enough interest. I suggested amalgamating schools where there was not enough interest/talent to field a worthwhile team, and you said that it couldn't be done successfully. Wrong! It has been done successfully by Dublin Colleges in the Leinster hurling. Any Dublin hurling follower will tell you of the benefits it brought to the game in the capital. It has also been done by Dundalk Schools in the football championship and now by Carlow Colleges. Schools football/hurling is a massive part of the GAA, the rivalry between schools is huge. I have extremely fond memories of playing for my school, it was almost as good to me as playing for my county. I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of it datsrite, you obviously went to a school without a huge GAA tradition and the game does seem to be in disarray at the lower levels in Sligo. This does not mean it is not worthwhile, it just means that the structures in place in your area (and possibly other areas) need to be looked at. There is no way playing football with my school hindered my education, if anything it kept me interested in school. Any schoolwork that members of the teams missed had to be caught up on (just as pupils doing other extra-curricular activities e.g. rehearsing for plays etc. had to), "Oh I was at a match, Sir" could never be used as an excuse. Furthermore there are students I know who stayed in school all the way til Leaving Cert just so that they could play Senior football. These lads would otherwise have left after their Junior Cert, but the lure of putting on the jersey kept them in education. Others who did poor Leaving Certs went back and repeated just so they would get another chance to represent their schools. These lads then did better Leavings and gained enough points to go on to further education instead of taking up unskilled jobs. P.S. Your petty jibe at Carlow was uncalled for and I think you should retract that remark.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 17/11/2009 23:39:44    486872

Sligo111 it was you who said there was nothing wrong with schools football in Sligo and now you don't want to discuss it. Also you keep making statements but don't actually say what impact it has. As someone who is constantly listening to clubs saying theyre county development officers don't fulfill their duties is it any wonder that I think they need to be shoke from the boots. And I my jibe at Carlow was in response to get with it's view saying I'm removed from the scene, not with it etc. Now the amalgamated schools issue. Yes I can see how this works in Dublin and Dundalk and large urban areas but here in Sligo the issue is not with the Sligo town teams. Its with the schools outside Sligo town. How could you successfully amalgamate schools that are twenty miles apart. Certainly I agree that it can work where you have schools located less than five miles or whatever apart from each other but not twenty plus. I know for a fact that the schools I have mentioned in Sligo that haven't fulfilled their fixtures are still training their players and have coaches coming in and a teacher/s assigned to overview it all. And two of these schools are located in the heart land of Sligo football. So tradition here has nothing got to do with it. And sligo111 I played a small bit of schools football but was fed up training for nothing. But am I not entitled to an opinion because I didn't play much football? Of course its meaningless. You don't realise the expense of getting coaches out. Each club in Sligo pays a coaching and development fee yearly and for what? I knoe that for my own club the members are not at all happy with what they've been paying for. Nocky, I agree that in some schools you have teachers who don't accept the gone to football excuse but it was something that was tolerated in my time and to see people who would give out stink about the GAA and go out for the doss is unacceptable. Finally to Sligo111 the statistics speak for themselves. These are Connacht stats so now tell me that there doesn't need to be something done.

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 16:20:00    487489

I'm just after scanning through the whole thread again. Ye seem to think I want schools football to be scrapped completly and never to return. This is not my intention. What I want is value for money, time and effort. We're in a time of economic crisis and as an amatuer organisation we cannot afford to spend the states money on something that is not run properly. I know that there are schools out there who make the most of these competitions but if you look the vast majority of them are in the upper tier of the competitions.

It is totally unfair that schools fork out bills of amble proportions that is used by 30 odd percent of the students to get nothing in return. And no one has yet addressed the burn out issue. Can you see how schools trainings games etc can add to this problem. And need I say again why train for nothing. Provinical councils clearly are not monitoring what is going on in schools compeitions especially here in Connacht for the most part.

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 16:53:19    487540

Just saw this thread and have to question the two Carlow posters who claim it's harder to get onto a school team than a county team. What sort of rubbish is that? If that's the case in Carlow then it would suggest major problems with the county minor team. I played for Summerhill in Sligo and some of my best (and worst) memories from school revolve around the team. In my day the county board didn't even bother to organise blitzes or anything else for secondary schools, all we had was the Connacht competitions, and a few challenge matches. That was it. Games were frequently re-arranged, but that was usually down to pitches being unplayable, and given that games are being played in November and December I think that's fairly understandable. I can't comment on how things were run for teams below A grade, but we never had much of a problem. As for the burn-out argument, a non-runner as far as I'm concerned. The year I did my Leaving I was playing football, soccer and rugby for a total of 9 teams, and I still was able to do well enough in the Leaving to gain a scholarship to University. I played a Connacht semi-final with Sligo minors three weeks before the leaving started, and was involved with a Sligo-Leitrim soccer team until 5 weeks beforehand. Sports are a very good distraction from the study, and a good way to avoid overstressing about the academics.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 18/11/2009 17:16:29    487574

black&white - I agree fully that a break from studies is required and on the burn out issue I'm glad to hear that it didnt affect you. Personally I don't believe in the burn out theory too much myself. I think everyone knows their own limits but its the buzz word of the GAA this last few years and if they're so concerned about it why do they overlook schools football?

Let me ask you a question black&white. Summerhill has a great sporting tradition in all codes. Is the present way of organising GAA games adaquet in comparison with Rugby and Soccer?

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 18:17:24    487654

Look Datsrite my point is it is not a waste of time for a coach to come to schools.If qualifed coaches come to schools and students learn something or take something on board then in my opinion it is not a waste of time or money.

SLIGO111 (Sligo) - Posts: 73 - 18/11/2009 18:40:03    487677

And what do they take on board that they don't take on board in their clubs?

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 19:14:49    487700

You seem to be moving away from some of your earlier assertions on this issue datsrite. You now say that you don't even believe in the player "burnout theory", despite using it as an argument against schools football in you original post (sic) "School football also can aid to burn out".

You also now "fully agree that a break from studies is needed", but argued that football was getting in the way of a students' studies in your earlier post. I pointed out how beneficial football was to some students who were poor academically and how it even lead to many students sticking it out to play Senior and getting a Leaving Cert instead of dropping out after the Junior Cert. You had no comment to make on this.

I also asked the question why there were so many cancellations of games involving the smaller schools in Sligo, an issue which you raised, but you made no comment on that despite commenting on other parts of my post. I understand that there is a problem with GAA in smaller schools, we have it with some smaller schools in Wexford too, but I would like to know whether the problems in Sligo are due to lack of student interest or lack of teachers/coaches or something else.

You say that amalgamating schools which are 20 miles apart could not work, how do you think Dublin Colleges worked? Are all secondary schools in Dublin within a 5-mile radius? I don't even think amalgamating these schools is the best option, it should be a last option if the schools cannot otherwise field a team in my opinion, but to say that it just couldn't be done is not true. Train at a pitch halfway between the two schools if the will is there.

You seem to think that since some schools are poorer than others, schools football isn't worthwhile. Isn't it the case throughout the GAA (and every other sport for that matter) at club, county and colleges level that some teams are stronger than others? Having young people playing GAA in our schools, whatever the level, is beneficial to the GAA, end of.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 18/11/2009 19:25:42    487709

Last time I spell this out for the Sligo lads. Senior A schools football at an under 19 age group in a good school produces better teams than county minor teams. In Carlow town there is a mix of Carlow, Laois, Kildare and Wicklow students. It is not unusual for County minors to not make their Schools Under 19 Senior A team. FACT. It says nothing about Carlow or any other county. This fact would be borne out in challenge matchs between Schools teams and Minor County teams. Secondly, again in Senior A schools, if the standard is higher than County Minor then it is also higher than club. How would a guy.girl not improve playing against and with players of a higher standard! At lower levels, (is there an A school in Sligo, apart from Summerhill?) perhaps these facts do not bear out?

getonwithit (Carlow) - Posts: 527 - 18/11/2009 19:43:07    487725

nocky:
I dont agree in the burn out theory but as I said its the new buzz word. Everytime theres an issue with fixtures in intercounty burn out it brought into question. In winter time there is a closed season because of burn out theory. The fact is that the GAA will use burn out as an excuse for tiddly squat but how come it never comes into question here. One rule for one and different for others.

Yes of course a break from studies is needed but come exam time school football is finished so this argument does not hold. People can take a break from studies by playing/training with their clubs.

On the schools issue. These schools are not too small to be fair. I don't know why they dont go ahead but its not just Sligo schools. Every county is affected by it. I just picked out Sligo because Sligo111 said there wasn't. As I previously said coaches are still attending these schools so obviously students are coming out to schools and I know a few teachers in these schools who would be very active GAA wise. So the structure is there but its not being used.

First of all in clubs I cannot stand amalgamations. I would presume that I'd have the same issues with schools amalgamating but whatever about neighbouring clubs amalgamating schools located a great distance away is just plain silly. After searching for how many schools in dublin I got a figure of 95. Thats an average of one school per 3.7 mile squared. Compare that with Sligo where there are nine schools and well I'll just tell you the area of Sligo is 709 sq miles.
Also I know that things differ in other schools but training always takes place here during class time (or it did anyway). I know in Dublin some schools give a half day or 3/4 day to allow for all extra curricular activity.

Schools wealth has nothing got to do with it. Every school is poor. If its not theres something wrong. Why are the teachers going out on strike next Tuesday if schools had bags of money hidden away? Every school is in the same boat financially or they should be at least and it costs the same to play football anywhere. What I'm saying is schools can often get their spending priorities wrong. What if I'm the prinicpal of a school and the teacher in charge of football says we need 1500 for all the schools football expenses up front and I say ok. Three and four months later I realise I've given money out to train for a competition we don't enter in. Well managed money is it? If it was a government department there'd be murder.

Think about this for a minute. Suppose schools decide no we're not going funding the money anymore for football, soccer, rugby. Let each of the organisations pay for it. How many county boards would be willing to pay then to keep schools in a competition the board doesnt care about as it is?

Nocky the main aim I'm getting at is that there needs to be a change in attitude towards school football. There needs to be a change in how schools organise it as well as the provinical councils. Then and only then will the system work in my view.

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 20:04:17    487742

How many A schools in Carlow?

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 20:07:58    487745

2 including Knockbeg in the boys and St Leos in the girls. Your problems appear to be with the organisation in your area, province etc. Its got massive value, last comment full stop!

getonwithit (Carlow) - Posts: 527 - 18/11/2009 21:08:43    487765

Well getonwithit no one forced you to comment each time. And why should it be over just because you say so. I have a right to an opinion just as much as anyone else is but if you don't want to post then simple answer. DON'T!!! It wouldn't suprise me if your on one of those teams with your insolent attitude and eargerness to wrap it all up when you feel like it.

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 23:24:11    487864

Agreed.The value of schools football is huge.I played it for 5 years in 'SLIGO' datsrite and injoyed every moment of it.

SLIGO111 (Sligo) - Posts: 73 - 18/11/2009 23:28:30    487872

Sure Knockbeg is a boarding school isnt it? Its well known that boarding schools have strong traditions in football. Any wonder ye have players from Laois,Kildare,Wicklow etc.

datsrite (Sligo) - Posts: 473 - 18/11/2009 23:29:34    487875

18/11/2009 23:29:34
datsrite
County: Sligo
Posts: 267

487875
Sure Knockbeg is a boarding school isnt it? Its well known that boarding schools have strong traditions in football. Any wonder ye have players from Laois,Kildare,Wicklow etc.
_____________

I suggest you get out a map and look at the geographical location of Carlow town datsrite.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 18/11/2009 23:52:51    487902

getonwithit

Very rare instances that schools teams are stronger than county teams. Carlow would definitely be an exception to the rule in this case. It's very rare for a school to pull many students from outside the county, unless they near a border, or are a boarding school. Normally a county minor panel is spread out across a county, and it'd be rare for any one school to provide more than half of the team. Jarlath's is the only school in Connacht that would draw in players from multiple counties, and even then it'd be very unusual for their team to be stronger than Galway's minors.

In any one year the school team would have at most 9-10 county panelists in their team, and the rest would be made up of lads who aren't of a county standard.

Simply put, schools football tends to be of a higher standard than club, because the schools pull their players from a number of clubs. Likewise, county football will be to higher standards than schools because the players are spread across a number of schools.


datsrite

In Summerhill I felt the organisation in each sport varied from year to year depending on who was running the team. The rugby was a bit better run in the school, but my Leaving Cert year was the first year that we entered the Senior Cup, so extra effort was being made.
The soccer organisation was usually on a par with the football. Matches would sometimes be cancelled because of clashes, or because of weather, but in general there wasn't much to pick between them in terms of administration.

black&white (Sligo) - Posts: 1628 - 18/11/2009 23:58:44    487913

Datsrite of course you have a right to an opinion, as do I. But this is going in circles at this stage. I wanted to call a halt to my own participation as I feel you have your mind made up, and had it made up when you started the thread. Rather than take on anything that anyone has said in here you have continued with the same spiel you started the thread with. At this stage you are taking it all a little personal! The thread is on the value of schoold football. You have recieved back replies from guys in Carlow/Wexford/Sligo/Meath all emphasising the value of it, but it has made little difference as you have attempted to ram your own opinion, which you started with, back down everyone's throat. The fact that a boarding school, with a football tradition, can call on students from a number of schools is surely a good thing? In Leinster the move is away from theses traditional boarding schools in the A championship towards schools with bigger numbers, something that theses schools as they move from boarding to day boy status are struggling with. St Mels in longford are a prime example. Now less of the insolence from you and try and take on board the valid, well thought out, insightful comments your thread was offered.

getonwithit (Carlow) - Posts: 527 - 19/11/2009 10:20:52    488073

b&w, as getonwithit pointed out schools football/hurling is played at a different, older, age group than county minor. This alone makes it tougher for young 17year-olds off the county minor panel who will be up against more physically developed players in schools - players who are ineligable for minor.

I don't know what the situation in Connacht is, but in Wexford the better GAA players willl tend to go to the better GAA schools, often travelling long distances rather than attending local secondary schools etc. This means that the core of the county minor teams (in particular the football team) will often be in just a few schools.

Furthermore, Wexford students who attend Good Counsel New Ross will have to compete with Kilkenny players for a place on their school team - players who they will not have to compete with for a place on the Wexford minor panel.

Carlow (like Good Counsel New Ross) attracts students from neighbouring counties because of its geographical location, and yours and datsrite's disparaging comments about Carlow GAA are unnecessary and I feel obliged, as an impartial observer, to defend my neighbouring county.

nocky (Wexford) - Posts: 2059 - 19/11/2009 16:03:41    488498