Plastic Paddy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 151

249470 Being a United fan, I hope we get rid of him in the summer. He can score goals for fun against the likes of West Brom, Hull etc... but when it comes til the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool etc... he's not there atall. When he loses the ball he doesnt track back while Tevez and Rooney work their socks off to get the ball back. We should have sold him last year when the big money was on the table. We didnt and now he should go in the summer before he loses even more value with his useless performances.

Some Utd fan you are Paddy!!! Who scored Utds goal against Liverpool? Who scored against Chelsea in the biggest game of the season last year? He was class against chelsea in the league (having a good goal disallowed) and has scored several goals against Arsenal. He's scored in the World Cup and in the European Championships. What more does he have to do to silence the begrudgers?

You're right though, he should track back a LOT more, but as Patrique would say Matt Le Tissier never tracked back and never should have.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 15:30:51    249599

Sorry Denzel,

I inexplicably read "If you were picking Fergies greatest ever 11" as greatest ever no.11.

My bad.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 15:36:23    249607

no it dosnt show they are bad defensively as bayern won it 2 more times around 99 and milan won it 2 years after and got to the semis the following year. liverpool and united just had unbelievable luck. sure another english team won there in the uefa cup in peno's a few weeks back after being out played for the whole game. i remember bolton flucking their way over atletico madrid 2 years ago in the uefa cup. call it bad defense or attack if you want but the english teams have been a much luckier than the other countrys since 99. i ever remember liverpool beating barca in the 03 or 04 champions league aswell after being completely outplayed AGAIN. although liverpool deserve their luck because they are actually able to raise the tempo in the big games unlike the other english teams. against madrid 09, milan07, barca in 08. united couldnt. in fact ive never seen united raise the tempo in the champions league. they just seem to sit back and pray to the lords that they opposition dont score and hope they get lucky (which they usually do). we already seen this against inter, barca last year. we seen milan thrast them in 07 and they again could not raise the tempo. they are not a great team. they are only european champios as the standard around europe is so poor at the moment but its improving as we seen this year and united definately wont win it with barca in the draw. well we never know once we take in account uniteds luck

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 15:42:35    249617

the liverpool goal was a peno. anyone could have scored it. he is good at getting goals but that dosnt make him the best

le tissier was a playmaker if you knew anything about football i.e they dont track back. they are the brains of the team and pick out passes. wingers like ronaldo job is to run up and down the wings for the whole game with no brain unless your messi who can eith be a winger, full forward, centre mid or attacking mid and excel in every position

you dont see riquelme tracking back either ie he's a playmaker, ronaldo isnt

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 15:47:34    249631

Where was the luck when utd thrashed Roma 7-1 or Juventus 3-0 away or when Liverpool beat Real 4-0 or Arsenal beat Inter 5-1 away. Arsenal and Liverpool have easily dispensed with Inter and Juve in the knockout stages in recent years. There's no luck involved in beating a team over two legs.

Barca are a great club who often play brilliant football, but if you're gonna go that far back then Celtic beat Barca over two legs too. NOthing lucky about it, just Spanish and Italian teams having an inflated notion of themselves.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 15:50:50    249638

the liverpool goal was a peno. anyone could have scored it

That's right cos nobody ever missed a peno.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 15:54:10    249644

Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 461

249644 the liverpool goal was a peno. anyone could have scored it

That's right cos nobody ever missed a peno.

Yeah. Not even Ronaldo in a Champions League Final when the pressure was really on. Or in other high pressure, high stakes matches. He'd never miss one in a Champion's League semi either, would he?

Get a grip lads, he's a show pony, he can only beat a player if he's isolated one-on-one out wide, he never plays well through the middle, because he doesn't have the skill, ability, brains or work-rate to survive in there.

an-lu-abu (Louth) - Posts: 118 - 06/04/2009 16:21:50    249693

32_4_1 conceding 2 identical goals in the last minute isnt bad defending? Losing a 3-0 lead in a half isnt bad defending? attacking midfielders dont have to defend? Lets hope ur not thinking of doing some management!

Playmakers like le tissier dont track back? No its lazy players like le tissier (and ronaldo) who dont track back... Why is it Gerrard ans Scholes (although not very well) can do it but not them?
Ronaldo scored and created more goals last season than le tissier done in his two best seasons put together... Ronaldo and messi basically play the same position so as far as i can see you'v totally undermined ur own argument... Look you dont like the guy, im not a fan myself, but you cant deny that he's a world class attacker. You dont see madrid offering 90 million for le tissier now do ya

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 06/04/2009 16:22:39    249695

i never said nobody has ever missed a peno but you implied that because ronaldo scored it he played well. there are several players on utd that are better dead ball kickers. ronaldos scored about 2 free kicks in about his last 70 attempts. he's terrible at dead ball situations and 90% of players score peno's i see when you talked about english teams winning heavily its always against italians you mentioned. not the spanish, germans, dutch. once any team gets at the italian defense and get the better of it (which was rare a few years back) they are in for a hammering as they dont like to attack too much over two legged games. celtic didnt beat barce well either in the uefa cup. they were hanging on and barca were going through a transition period. i think the game you are talking about, barca were 13th in the league at the time and had an out of form saviola and kluivert up front. anyway i was more refering to united as liverpool can raise the tempo and european football suits arsenal. uniteds big win over roma is nothing to be proud of. they were playing in league where inter won 18 games in a row and the standard in italy 2 years ago was terrible and roma were way behind in 2nd, something like 25 points by the time the league had finished in 07. its a fact united cant up their intensity when its needed therefore are not a great team. they have also been very lucky in europe in recent seasons along with other english teams, but not so much the other teams

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 16:28:48    249703

take le tissier out of a team and ronaldo and then we'll see which teams form will decline dramatically. le tissiers position is much more important. just like when they russia brought in playmaker arshavin they suddenly end up in a european cup semi-final for the first time in years. and zenit win their league for the 1st time in 20 years and win the uefa cup. arshavin leaves and they are out of the uefa cup and behind in the league. playmakers talent goes undernoticed a lot unless they play with flare like kaka or fabregas at the start of last season. and thats why there are such things as defensive midfields. to counter playmakers non tracking back. and gerrard and scholes are centre mids. not attacking mids/playmakers. theres a difference between riquelme/arshavins role to lampards/gerrards. again you football knowledge is tested the 07 and 99 finals were luck. end of. liverpool got on a role and everything went right for them. even the deflection that went in to dudeks save in extra time from a meter out. 99 munich outplayed them for the whole match. they hit the post about 3 times. you dont get unluckier than that

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 16:40:53    249730

I NEVER said Robinho was the best player in the world, I said he was the best player in a city called Manchester.


And Kevin Keegan was twice European Footballer of the year. That says it all about awards. Or Dave Clarke of Limerick being all star right half instead of Whelahan, who was hurler of the year the same year.

Mind you Clarke had a great year. but as the two awards were picked by more or less the same people, it says it all about awards.

And I think Pele once said I was the best player in the world so I wouldn't listen too much to what ex players say, they are merely being polite.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/04/2009 17:31:37    249854

Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 461

249599
Plastic Paddy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 151 He's scored in the World Cup and in the European Championships. What more does he have to do to silence the begrudgers?



That settles it. The record holder for most goals in European qualifiers with 14, yes FOURTEEN, must be the best player in the world.

Step forward David Healy.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/04/2009 17:34:07    249863

this says it all about football awards. fifa put up a poll to give the award for greatest player ever. there was only going to be one award. fifa didnt like maradonna and were expecting pele to win. so when maradonna finally did win the never gave it to him and gave it to pele instead even though maradonna won fair and square. instead they made up a second award and gave maradonna the people choice award. absolute rubbish. footbal awards by fifa and uefa cant be taken seriously

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 17:36:45    249869

patrique
County: Antrim
Posts: 2755

249863 Breffni39
County: Cavan
Posts: 461

249599
Plastic Paddy
County: Tyrone
Posts: 151 He's scored in the World Cup and in the European Championships. What more does he have to do to silence the begrudgers?



That settles it. The record holder for most goals in European qualifiers with 14, yes FOURTEEN, must be the best player in the world.

Step forward David Healy.

Come on now Patrique you know thats not relevant, stop trolling and try to discuss these things in an adult fashion. Great achievment for Healy and fair play to him, but that was a qualifying campaign I'm talking about the finals tournaments and Champions league finals and you know it.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 18:01:28    249930

32_4_1
County: Meath
Posts: 149


I agree with you on the pele/maradona awards thing - that was a sham.

Look, I don't think Ronaldo is the best player in the world -messi is, but Ronaldo is definitely up there, anyone who thinks otherwise needs to watch a bit of football - he deserved World player of the year last cos he had a phenomenally good season, winning practically everything and contributing handsomely to his teams success.

On the post about, foreign teams, I didn't pick just Italian, I picked Real as well if you re-read.

You're entitled to your opinion on the English teams, but do you honestly think so many games over a lengthy period of time can be put down to luck and nothing else? Seems a bit strange to me no matter how much I try to see your point.

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12436 - 06/04/2009 18:06:21    249937

Ronaldo is the best player in the world and playing for the best team in the world .

Dellboypolecat (Tyrone) - Posts: 15069 - 06/04/2009 19:01:45    249987

i said i wasnt talking about liverpool as much. i said liverpool can raise their tempo when it matters especially in europe as we seen against real. but they beat a nothing madrid team. the current useless ajax team would have beaten them 4-0 without breaking a sweat. united cant raise the tempo. when teams in europe put it up to them they are no where to be seen. luck dosnt describe the united-barca game last year (and remember barca had gone 9 games without scoring and still were all over united)

but over recent years english teams have gotten luckier especially united.

and dellboypolecat you obvioulsy dont know anything about football. barca would smash united to bits if they got them now or in the next round

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 19:47:31    250027

Good point about the awards, 34 2 1.

Ronaldo has scored ONE goal in Champions league finals, a free header from 6 yards. Puskas used to score hat tricks on a losing team, 4 the night he won it.

Ronaldo? Pace, but so does Usain Bolt, good shooting ability, excellent in the air, can score, and can link play. A very good player, but over hyped if not over rated. Internationally he was dreadful in the Euros, had a reasonable world cup.

In his own team Rooney can do most of the above, and has a better "footballing" brain. Scholes in a different role, and a few others. And that is just at United.

Now Le Tissier, what a player. If he had been French or Spanish or Italian or German they would have built a team around him, and he would have been world player of the year ten times, although awards mean nothing.

If United win the league and such, Vidic or Rooney or Giggs or Van Der Sar will be footballer of the year. If Liverpool win it will be Gerard.


And Messi? Wonderful. The only current player who can beat three men from a standing start using guile and technique. Even Robinho isn't that good, or Kaka. Zidane was the last person with that skill.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 06/04/2009 20:00:09    250047

32_4_1
I dont know where to start! First off le tissier was at a rubbish club and was happy being a big fish in a small pond, he was their only player, so dropping them might relegate them instead of finishing 17 with him in the side, drop ronaldo and there is good players behind him although it would have an effect i.e. wouldnt have won on sunday, however it wouldnt matter it you dropped le tissier from utd because he wouldnt be starting in the first place...
Second off, andrei arshavin is 27, he just didnt appear in the russian national team he's been there for ages, something like 50 caps... Again zenit didnt have much of a team after they sold a fair few starters from the uefa cup side... And anyway he's more of a second striker, like robbie keane, not a central midfield playmaker, he is also one of ur 'headless wingers' when needs be... gerrard, scholes and fabregas are also playmakers, they just also happen to be able to track back... Playmakers by their very name, make play, these three guys have as many assists as ur famed 'playmakers' and also chip in with a sizeable amount of goals... Mikeal Arteta is a prime example, never used to track then IMPROVED his game by adding this attribute... Here you might want this dunces hat

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 06/04/2009 20:24:17    250087

i didnt mean arshavin came out of nowhere. recently with the team built around him in russia and zenit both had huge improvments. you think if they took out arshavin and stuck in the one trick pony ronaldo zenit would have won the uefa cup. dont think so just as sporting lisbon were average when he was there.

and your wrong every zenit player is still there except arshavin and they are a shadow of the team they were last year. just like russias first two euro 08 games they done nothing until arshavin came on in the 2nd game.

just like before playmaker van der vaart went to hamburg they were up to nothing and all of a sudden they were playing champions league football. just like when aimar went to relegation threatened real zaragoza all of a sudden they finish 5th and 2 points outside champions league football. these are the great players who make a difference. not ronaldo and players like him. take them out and theres no difference

32_4_1 (Meath) - Posts: 4174 - 06/04/2009 21:25:07    250153