Offaly are rivalled in the 90s only by Kilkenny 1992/93. A wonderful, skilful team, superior to most when they decided to play. In 1995 they underestimated Clare and surprisingly lost.

In 1998 Offaly should have won the first game with Clare, denied by a very suspect free at the death.

In the second game they were awful, but rallied and may have won only for the ref blowing up early.

They won the 3rd game with some comfort. How anyone can say Clare were robbed is beyond me.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 12/01/2009 17:57:41    178615

Clare were a great team, very physical with some great players - seanie, the lohans, jamsie etc.. but the offaly team were all skill - incredible touch and wrists. I was lucky enough to be at the '5 minute final'. One of the most incredible things ive ever seen in croke park

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4678 - 12/01/2009 18:35:29    178650

In response to Eden from Offaly, I have to disagree with you there buddy, massively......you say Clare would have been beaten by Kilkenny in the 98 All Ireland....what do you base that opinion on????? Clare were Munster and All Ireland Champions and had beaten Kilkenny the previous year in the 1997 All Ireland semi final.....so why would you be so sure they would lose???

Someone also mentioned that Clare fell away in 96 and then came back, but Clare lost to a great Limerick team (by a ciaran Cary point) that won Munster and went on to lose again in the All Ireland to Wexford in a game they should have won just like in 1994 against yous lads.

ALSO HAVE TO SAY NO TEAM IN HISTORY HAD AN ALL IRELAND HANDED TO THEM LIKE OFFALY IN 1998......JESUS IT WAS TRAGIC FOR CLARE....only team ever to lose twice and win an All Ireland. Someone also mentioned that Offaly were a skilful and stylish team...I do agree with that. A great team but NOT THE GREATEST........also it's a fact that Munster was and is now 100% fact a much harder Provence to come out off....SO CLARE WOULD GET THE NOD FOR ME AND MOST....ONLY OFFALY PEOPLE WILL ARGUE WITH THAT...I suppose you got to another final in 2000, but Kilkenny destroyed you after your customary yearly surprise performance against Cork....

But for me....Offaly were handed the all Ireland in 1998 which should never happen, in the modern game. 1994 is the only All Ireland Offaly won in the 90's.....just like Wexford and it was Clare who battled and worked hard for two all Irelands in 95 and 97 and 98 (only to have it taken off them in the board room).....

Just telling it how it is.

IrishRover (Fermanagh) - Posts: 488 - 12/01/2009 20:04:35    178706

Tonrio
County: Offaly
Posts: 43

178556 Offaly did have a bit of luck in 98 but people tend to forget they had the first game one until the ref gave a free against Hubert Rigney for using his hurl to protect the ball. If anythin it was a free out, so the second game was just things evening out.. the 3rd game no one can deny the better team one.. and also 95 Clare were trailing for most of the game until the late goal so some might say they were lucky.... However not for a second am i saying Clare were lucky I believe they deserved to win in 95 just like we did in 98

In response to this message, the free against Hubert Rigney for using his hurl to protect the ball is a matter of opinion (the referee's opinion in fact). YOU AS AN OFFALY MAN WOULD SAY IT WAS NO FREE....WOULDNT EXPECT YOU TO SAY FAIR PLAY...OFFALY DIDNT HAVE LUCK IN 1998, THEY HAD IT HANDED TO THEM...
At least its part and parcel of sport frees for and against you, that's the luck of sport....wining All Irelands because the referee blew the whistle two minutes early in a match Offaly were being beaten well is not sport....it's tragic...all be it Offaly rallied and were closing the gap, Clare led by 10+ at one stage in the middle of the second half, just telling you the truth.

IrishRover (Fermanagh) - Posts: 488 - 12/01/2009 20:16:03    178711

Irish Rover, Offaly lost once in 1998, to Kilkenny, a couple of DJ 21 yard frees doing for them in the Leinster final.

I am not from Offaly and believe Rigney did not commit a foul.

Offaly were written off before the first game, and should have won it. In the third game they won handily. In the second game, we will never know who might have won. All this talk about only three minutes left. I refer everyone to look at the finish of the 1994 final, when I think they were in a worse position against Limerick. Offaly won that game.

Clare to me were a breadth of fresh air, but I still point out that when Antrim played the same Clare team in 1994 in the league quarter at Croke, the bookies had Antrim as favourites, and we expected to win. We were never favourites to beat Offaly in a big game in the 90s.

Clare had a great defence, one very good mid-fielder and one battling mid-fielder but a mediocre forward line. The big surprise is that they won so much. They relied more on strength and fitness than hurling ability. Never mind Whelehan, John Troy and Johnny Dooley eased pure class. Kinahan was the best full back in the country and Hannamy was challenged only by Willie O'Connor for the accolade of best corner back. Throw in the great but inconsistent Pilkington, and Daithi Regan, and Offaly certainly had the better 15. Even when Clare won out in 1995, the outstanding display was Offaly in the Leinster final.

Clare deserved their two titles, and Offaly deserved their two, but Offaly could have won more.

patrique (Antrim) - Posts: 13709 - 12/01/2009 21:40:53    178781

For my views on this topic please refer to my earlier post on page 1 but one thing must be settled. And before anyone accuses me of bias I will state only facts and try to keep my opinion restrained.

That is the issue of time remaining in the second game against Clare. Many incorrectly believe that there were only two minutes remaining. This is not true. There were two minutes of normal time remaining (the game was blown in the 68th minute) PLUS three minutes of additional time.
That means that the game was blown up 5 minutes early. The referee in question has said many times that the root of his mistake was that he played a 30 minute half. I repeat the game was blown up 5 and not 2 minutes early. 5 not 2. 5 not 2. 5 not 2. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. Hopefully you get the picture.

Now given that Offaly were only trailing by 3 points having being down by 10, surely to be denied 5 minutes is suspect to say the least. How many times have any of us seen any team at least draw if not win from a similar situation? Limerick v Tipperary 2nd game 2007 is just one recent example off the top of my head. And Limerick levelled by scoring three seperate points. A goal could be achieved much quicker. Imagine if it was your club or county.

Furthermore it states clearly in the rulebook that should a game be ended before the alloted time that game shall then be replayed. Why people complain over a fair rule being applied is beyond me. I am also reasonably sure but not certain that a precedent had been set regarding a similar situation decades previously. A reply was the outcome in that situation.

Anyway in 1998 a reply was ordered, another chance for both teams. We know what happened.

Vector (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 12/01/2009 23:00:49    178852

A true debate.... Offaly had never anything EVER handed to them, they had to win them all! Munster being a harder province to get out of, is a matter of opinion not fact.

That Offaly team lasted the pace, they all had great resilience and tenacity, never knew when they were beaten, knew how to celebrate victory too!

One of the truly amazing things about Offaly is the fact that the hurling fraternity in Offaly is so small, a real wonder that they were able to forget about club rivalries or 'suspend' them until the intercounty was over.

Offaly really did provide great highlights, especially when they hammered Cork who were raging hot favourites in 2000. Remember Joe Deane in the second half? Had not a clue how to get away from the Offaly defence who were transformed from their performance in the first half. Kevin Kinahan... an unsung hero.

Correct about Hanamy, a quiet hurler who was most effective, and as for Brian, Sid? One of the purest strikers ever off both left and right, perfect ground to hand action and his vision and use of the ball was ... as good or better than any previous or recent half back. Magical.

As for John Troy... he gave a lot of players the run around, very skilful, would have been even better if he stayed off the cigs.
But overall , Offaly were a great hurling team, are coming again too!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1903 - 12/01/2009 23:55:26    178873

Fair play to partiquie, I take your point with a lot of what you said, but for me Offaly lost twice in 1998, once to Kilkenny and once to Clare....I stand by what I said about the Rigney free in the first match between Clare and Offaly, a match you are quite right Offaly went in as underdogs and many people taught Clare would win handy but Offaly were unlucky not to hold out for the win. But saying it was or wasn't a free is crazy. That's part and parcel of sport and happens all the time in matches, a great example of this is the 2005 All Ireland Football Semi Final between Armagh and Tyrone, Tyrone were awarded a last kick of the game free to win an extremely tight epic contest. It was a severely harsh free. I am surprised Offaly didn't have a sit down protest over it when Rigney was adjudged to have fouled the ball (TOUNGE IN CHEEK) But Clare got the late free and drew the game, much down to their sheer determination and effort, much the characteristics of that great team...you had to beat them the first day or they would get you the second. This was the case and Clare completely overwhelmed Offaly the second day and were a county mile in front, Clare were magnificent, fair play Clare took the foot off the gas and Offaly got themselves back in the game, there is no doubt for me Clare would have won the game if the extra two minutes were played, four points up and David Forde about to hit the ball over the bar for a 5 point lead with less than two minutes left. Look these are the facts, fair play Offaly were awarded a reply, and fair play to Clare they allowed them a replay, which by right they didn't have to, it wasn't Clare's fault that the ref blew the whistle. But Clare took it like men and Offaly won the reply fair and square, but Clare were broken for that match, no Lynch and a clear psychological advantage was with Offaly as they had been beaten twice and still had a chance of an All Ireland. Clare on the other hand had been robbed of a place in the final and never over came that, it was obvious from early in that match that Offaly were hurling like they had been give the keys to an All Ireland and weren't going to give up a third shot in the one year. Clare must have been down and feeling gutted going into that match, only one winner....completely unfair.

IrishRover (Fermanagh) - Posts: 488 - 13/01/2009 00:49:55    178884

vector when does 2000 final be considered the 90s. ok that offaly team was great but still 3rd best of decade after cats and the banner, jimmy cooney gave u one in 98. kilkenny won 5 leinsters , offaly 3.

richiescats (USA) - Posts: 420 - 13/01/2009 03:34:15    178892

Yes Rigney did use his hurl to protect the ball. No rule against it, its similiar to someone hooking another player from behind a legal play. And in the game blown early Offaly were 10 points behind, had whittled it down to 3 and there were 5 mins left by all reports at the time, (2 in normal time + 3 injury time). Sure we won an All Ireland in 5 mins who is to say what would have happened.

Every team needs luck to win an All Ireland, look in 95. Last minute goal against Cork, Hughes dropping the ball at Taffes feet. No one is saying Clare deserved their All Ireland in 95 and 97 just like we deserved ours in 94 and 98

Tonrio (Offaly) - Posts: 54 - 13/01/2009 08:42:05    178910

Irish Rover with all respect you are talking rubbish!! You keep saying that Offaly were handed the All-Ireland in 1998 but this is nonsense......5 minutes left in the second game (inc. stoppage time as the ref himself says) and only 3 points in it and Offaly had all the momentum!!

OFFALY STILL HAD TO GO TO SEMPLE AND BEAT CLARE NOT TO MENTION BEATING KILKENNY IN THE ALL-IRELAND FINAL WHICH IS PRETTY HARD TO DO (ASK WATERFORD).

If playing three semi-finals and a final is getting it handed to you I'd hate to see what earning one is like!!

eden (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 13/01/2009 09:08:45    178918

Mr Eden with all the respect to you it's obvious you are a passionate Offaly man who will never say anything but back up Offaly's credentials. You however are over looking the fact that Clare hadn't a chance in the third semi final, after playing out a hard Munster Championship which is far more demanding than a Lenister, they played Offaly the first day and nearly lost but managed a draw. The second day they were magnificent, they were 10+ ahead at one stage in the second half and allowed Offaly to knock over a few scores and get relatively back into the game. BUT YOU SAY "OH THERE WAS TWO PLUS 5.5..5.5.5.5.5.5.5..5.NOT 2.BUT 5.MINUTES LEFT"..YOU HAVENT MENTIONED THAT CLARE'S DAVID FORDE HAD POSSESSION OF THE BALL AND WAS ABOUT TO PUT IT OVER THE BAR FOR A 5 POINT LEAD HAVE YOU????? You keep saying two or three points Clare were up, but Clare were 4points up and about to make it 5 when Cooney blew his whistle...now I am not picking on Offaly, it's the whole point of this debate, are Offaly the forgotten team of the 90's..the answer a plain and simple no. We remember, they lost two games in the 1998 Championship and still won the All Ireland. Credit to Offaly in 94 fantastic and great in 95, that fantastic performance against Cork in 2000 also but facts are the referee won you the All Ireland in 1998. The moment he blew the whistle the second day against Clare when there were 68minutes played and yes at the referee's discretion "injury time" remaining. Offaly were thorough to the All Ireland to face a Kilkenny team that didn't expect to see them there.

THE MOMENT HE BLEW THAT WHISTLE CLARE WERE ROBBED AND OFFALY WERE THROUGH...


"OFFALY STILL HAD TO GO TO SEMPLE AND BEAT CLARE NOT TO MENTION BEATING KILKENNY IN THE ALL-IRELAND FINAL WHICH IS PRETTY HARD TO DO (ASK WATERFORD)."

Eden (Offaly)

That is rubbish Eden; do you have any idea how hard it would be to come back from a psychological blow like that?????? Facts are Clare had hurled their hearts out and when Cooney blew that whistle, they were back in the All Ireland to defend their title. ONLY TO HAVE IT RIPPED AWAY FROM THEM AGAIN....CLARE HAD NO CHANCE THE THIRD DAY...YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT ALL THE MOMENTUM IN THE WORLD WAS WITH OFFALY THAT DAY...CLARE WENT TO SEMPLE STADIUM AND FAUGHT HARD, BUT THERE WAS ONLY EVER ONE WINNER AFTER THE EVENTS OF THE LAST DAY..THINK ABOUT IT IF THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT FOR OFFALY?????? NO WAY WOULD YOU NOT BE A LITLLE BITTER..OFFALY FACED A CLARE TEAM THAT ALREADY HAD THEM BEATEN THE LAST DAY AND BELIEVED THEY WERE IN THE FINAL..........

(CAN YOU EVEN COMPREHEND WHAT THAT MUST FEEL LIKE????).

TO WIN AND THEN BE TOLD IT DOESN'T COUNT, TO LOSE LIKE OFFALY AND BE TOLD OH BY THE WAY LADS YOU GOT ANOTHER CHANCE"...

ONLY ONE WINNER IN SEMPLE..OFFALY.BEFORE A BALL WAS THROWN.

OFFALY ON THE OTHER HAD WERE FULL OF EXUBERANTS
AND HAD EVERY REASON TO BE AS THEY HAD MORE LIVES THAN A CAT THAT YEAR...

FACTS ARE ITS DISGUSTING WHAT HAPPENED TO CLARE THAT YEAR..

1998 JUST A BIG SHAME

But still Eden if that's what you call earning an All Ireland..Offaly are the so the team of the 90's.

IrishRover (Fermanagh) - Posts: 488 - 13/01/2009 10:40:51    178995

Irish Rover, firstly its great to see a fermanagh man so passionte about his hurling...anyway I know it was hard on Clare I wont argue with that but I still believe its going overboard to say it was handed to Offaly. They played some terriffic hurlin' that year to win it.

1998 might be a shame for you and Clare people but for Offaly it was amazing to see the whole county getting behind hurling not just the Birr area.

My original point still stands - Offaly do not get the recognition they deserve compared to Clare in particular. Remember Offaly had to overcome a big defeat to Kilkenny and a change in manager afterwards - it was by no means straight forward.

YES I AM BIASED BUT I BELIEVE OFFALY SHOULD BE REMEMBERED AS TEAM OF THE DECADE!!!


plus we didnt introduce a certain Ger to the Country!!! ha ha

eden (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 13/01/2009 13:01:45    179138

Irish Rover, whatever your views are thats fair enough, nothing like a debate. Buts lets get one thing correct.

Clare were 3 points up with 5 minutes left in the fiirst reply when it was blown up early. Clare were not four points up as you believe, check the video if you must.

As for David forde about to put the ball over the bar, well if being 13 yards out by the sideline under the Hogan stand with Kevin Martin on top of you is 'about the put the ball over the bar' then I've heard it all. Even without any pressure from a defender (which their was considerable amounts of in this situation) that angle is far to acute to consider a point a likely outcome. Forde would probably have had to pass the ball and then who knows whjat wpuld have happened. A block or a clearence was just as likely a result if not more so than a score. They are the facts.

Vector (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 13/01/2009 15:01:24    179268

This will clear up a few things


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WeC1N1Ot6k

eden (Offaly) - Posts: 20 - 13/01/2009 15:39:03    179301

mr eden, thank you for the youtube link there....it clears up one mistake i made Clare were only 3points up (SORRY),

BUT IT BACKS EVERYTHING I SAID UP....CLARE WERE ROBBED....AND AS JOE DOOLEY SAID OFFALY KNEW THEY HAD CLARE WHEN THEY WERE GIVEN A REPLAY..OFFALY WERE OVER THE MOON, CLARE FELT SICK...AND THEN TO BE ROBBED OF LYNCH ASWELL....AWFUL.

....HOW IN THE NAME OF GOD CAN A TEAM COME BACK FROM A PSYCHOLOGICAL BLOW LIKE THAT.....THAT CLIP CONFIRMS ALL I SAID AND FORM THE PEOPLE INVOLVED THEMSELVES....FAIR PLAY...BUT JESUS CLARE WERE ROBBED IN 1998.....OFFALY HAD A MIRCALE HANDED OUT TO THEM THAT YEAR END OF STORY.

IrishRover (Fermanagh) - Posts: 488 - 14/01/2009 04:42:12    179885

Pathetic. Not even a thread worth responding to(god knows why I am!). I'm only typing this in between fits of laughter about de fella saying offaly were more "skillful" than Clare.

A wind-up thread by the (otherwise sadly mis-guided) BIFFO surely??!

banner_boy (Clare) - Posts: 1285 - 14/01/2009 11:30:08    180024

Are you for real Banner_boy? You cannot compare the artistry of Dooleys, Pilkingtons, Troys et all with the physicality of Clare. I can only think of one or two artists on the Clare team - Jamesie, maybe Lynch. Otherwise it was all about power - Baker, Lohans, Daly etc. Fair play to Clare for winning All Irelands but it was all about force and strength - Offalys were all about skill and subtlety. It doesn't make one win better than the other but thats the way it was. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Dubinmeath (Dublin) - Posts: 1123 - 14/01/2009 12:07:13    180070

To me Offaly were the most skillful team of the 1990s. Absolutely outstanding hurlers and were most dangerous when they were the underdog (as Cork found out in 2000). I also fondly remember the clashes between John Troy and Brian Corcoran-two outstanding hurlers and not a foul stroke between them.

Regarding the Offaly v Clare semi-final, if you want to talk about facts, then please stick to the facts.

1) The game was blown up early and Clare were winning at that time.
2) Though Offaly were making a strong comeback and the evidence may suggest that they would have won, nobody can possibly know that they would have won it. People are only best guessing but it certainly can not be called a fact,the only fact is that CLare were winning.
3) Jimmy Cooney thought it was a 30 minute half and played 3 minutes stoppage time. Some poster thinks that this means there were 5 minutes left. Again this is NOT A FACT for two obvious reasons (i) it was in the days before it was announced how many minutes were to be played and nobody can possibly know how much injury time Jimmy Cooney would have played if he was timing a 35 minute half, it was completely at his discretion (ii) he played 3 minutes as a proportion of a 30 minute half, if he had timed for 35 he may have played less stoppage time as proportionally the stoppages would have been less over a longer half (I Know you are supposed to play all stoppage time but referees rarely do, they do it proportion). Again nobody can possibly know how long was left in the game in terms of injury time. The only thing we can say is that there were two legitimate minutes remaining and clare were winning. That is a FACT, anything else is conjecture.
4) When Jimmy Cooney blew up early, it was human error. There are rules on time-keeping which were not adhered to. However, there are also rules on players striking other players and Michael Duignan should have been sent off in that match. Again, that was human error on the part of the referee. had Duignan been sent off, nobody can say how the game might have changed. What we do know, is that Clare were the legitimate winners of that particular match. they did nothing untoward and they did not have to offer Offaly a replay. They sportingly did offer them a replay. They deserve credit for that.

Above are the facts. Ins aying all of that, Offaly did deserve 2 All-Irelands in 1990s. I feel though, going just on facts and not trying to guess what WOULD or MIGHT have happened, just waht did happen, Clare deserved to be in the 1998 AI final.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 14/01/2009 12:35:46    180107

The 2 Lohans, Doyle, Daly, McMahon, Lynch, Tuohy (who won us all-ireland in 95 single-handedly), O'Connor, Sparrow O'Loughlin.

In terms of skill, how cud you compare the Biffos to them? Yes, we introduced a more physical style of hurling, but we were still FAR more skillful as well!! That fact seems to get lost in translation with some mis-guided people.

To be honest I really don't think I need to spout anything on this. There's an unspoken understanding among real hurling people.

banner_boy (Clare) - Posts: 1285 - 14/01/2009 12:42:54    180116