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@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1371 - 06/05/2025
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I add some comments below.
- 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'intra-group' ties - i.e. play other 'crossover' 12), with all 'intra-tier' Prov KO ties included in the 12
✓ how are you getting 12 games from provincial and league matches
✓ URC is a 16-team league with '4 regional groups of 4' (that also play for Shield titles, like GAA Provs).
URC plays 18 games - twice against own group, once v rest.
For my AILC, I start with URC schedule, but avoid own group - play the "rest" only (other 3 groups of 4 = 12 games).
Prov opponents are drawn to 'any other group' to ensure inclusion in the 'crossover 12' (would be incorrectly avoided in same group).
I'm only using 'groups' to reduce a 15-game league to 12.
- Limit each group to 'no more than one' Prov SF team from each province (this way, all 'possible' Prov Finals & Prelim, QF & SF ties can 'cross over')
✓✓ You have lost me at this point
✓✓ At time of AILC Draw (after Prov QFs), it's uncertain who will meet in Prov Finals. To cover all possibilities, spreading SFs thin (one to a group) guarantees a 'crossover Final' (and SFs). Pre-draw Prov Prelim & QF opponents can easily by drawn to 'another group' as well.
✓✓✓ This might look good drawn up but cannot be followed trying to accommodate a dysfunctional provincial system into what should be a straight forward league or championship just makes a dogs dinner of the whole thing.
✓✓✓ OK, a fair point - my 'procedural gymnastics' accommodates that Prov dysfunction.
But bare in mind - I counter-balance each Prov's imbalance - i.e. each team plays '3 groups of 4', 3 from each of 4 seeding pots, including their own - so a shot at a 'fair' competition, don't you think?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 06/05/2025 19:35:38
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "If the All Ireland had 3 tiers (12,12 and 9). All groups could have 3 teams and have the top 2 going up.
A Sam Maguire cup with with 4 groups of 3, would give everyone what they want - a chance to recover from a defeat but no chance of a dead rubber.
Having relegation play offs for the bottom 4 teams, breaks the link to the league as well.
Have a league structure of Div 1A/B and Div 2A/B (4 up and 4 down promotion)
- gives lower ranked teams a shot at higher ranked teams
The Alternative is provincial leagues - then the All Ireland.
Leinster
GROUP 1 - Dublin, Louth, Meath, Kildare,
GROUP 2 - Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Wexford
GROUP 3 - Longford, Carlow, Wicklow, London
Connacht
Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, Lietrim
Munster
Kerry, Cork, Clare, Tipp, Waterford
Ulster
Group 1: Donegal, Armagh, Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry
Group 2: Cavan, Fermanagh, Down, Antrim" That proposal is still a league followed by another league which i believe isn't a go. The main issue here is the provincials won't be sacked. There's too much power in provincial councils and turkeys won't vote for Xmas. Whatever ingenuity of structure is drawn up it's going to have to factor them in and it inevitably will result in repetition and boredom.
The easiest and most practical in my view is the leagues as the corner stone of the season followed by running off both last 8's to win the AI competitions.
seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1663 - 07/05/2025 10:04:24
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If 10:10:12 could be fitted in, it would be a competitive championship. All Ireland in 2 groups of 5. 4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 5 league qualifiers. 3 home games each. 2nd and 3rd into quarter finals.
Similar format for Tailteann. Provincial runners up guaranteed at least a Tailteann spot. Tier 3 then possibly 3 group of 4 or 2 groups of 6. Whatever is agreeable really.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 07/05/2025 12:35:00
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Replying To seany16: "A man and his dog will tell you the season needs to extend into August for a multitude of reasons. All we are trying to do here is find the fairest and best means to a last 8 knockout. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. The best way the teams are ordered is via the league but the 4 v 3 home/away scenario skews things year to year. The leagues need to go up in status and that's achieved via seedings for the knockout stage. However, the provincial loop undermines the entire thing and the runner up placing simply has to go. The provincials also have to run concurrently during the league season. There's just no appetite for groups in football. It works in Munster Hurling because of local rivalries, its very much hit and miss in Leinster." I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
Getting a fair system for determining the teams playing in the latter stages.
It just is not practical to have a home and away league schedule, Provincials and say 4 round All Ireland playoffs in whatever form.
That's 22 potential weeks of action and to then have to factor in breaks just takes up too much of the year.
Club, as is, only has about 23 weeks available to it including Provincials and All Ireland club. We are at the bare bones of what can be shaved off those competitions and to be honest even now there's desent around the allocation of county players to their clubs.
That 2nd round of league games would suffer from the same repetition that you rightly dislike about the current group stage.
Moving the All Ireland finals out to August could work but there would need to be club breaks earlier in the season.
The Provincials could be played in parallel with the league and their contribution to the All Ireland minimised.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 07/05/2025 13:15:37
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I heard John Mulliane looking to get hurling championship changed as Munster is too cut throat with 3 from 5 whereas Leinster is too soft. Wanting 4 from each.
True but then Munster loses it bite.
Football same boat. Ulster worth preserving, Galway v Mayo always great occasions and I'm really looking forward to Leinster for first time since Kildare were putting it up to Dubs.
The anomaly will always be Kerry playing sub standard sides and playing two games to win there's, Leinster sides seeded whereas for Ulster teams you get this years scenario where the previous two champions meet in preliminary round.
Whatever happens afterwards it's still not or never will be level playing field but how can that be fixed without ruining one of the best competitions in the game.
Whatever system we come up with has to make each tournament special in its own merit. The speed and compression has devalued the league, blitzed the provincial championships and barely any build up to the beauty of the three critical rounds in Croke Park squeezed into July.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 322 - 07/05/2025 13:47:32
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@shaggykev and all.
I continue to 'polish' my AILC - made a few other changes.
Your suggested further enhancements are welcome.
All-Ireland League-Championship (AILC)
i.e. a 'two-tier' Swiss model league,
encompassing Prov KO doubling as league ties,
leading to a concluding 'three-tier' AIC KO.
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TWO OPTIONS:
OPTION ONE
✓ Two league tiers of 16
✓ Prov KO ties (Draw in Oct of prior year)
'double as league ties' (all 4 Prov rds, intra-tier only); any tier-crossover ties (Tier 1v2) are Prov KO only
✓ Play Prov Prelim & QF Rds early (1st half of Feb); and defer Prov SFs (end of Apr) & Finals (2nd & 3rd weeks of May)
✓ After Prov QFs, draw '4 groups of 4' in each tier
(from 4 seeding pots of 4)
✓ 12-match Regular Season (URC schedule, less 'intra-group' ties - i.e. play other 'crossover' 12), with all 'intra-tier' Prov KO ties included in the 12
✓ Limit each group to 'no more than one' Prov SF team from each province (this way, all 'possible' Prov Finals - like Prelim, QF & SF ties - 'cross over')
✓ Rank teams 1-16 & 17-32, based on 12-match Swiss model/ partial round robin, 16-team tables, prior to a 'three-tier' AIC for Sam, Shield & Plate
✓ Teams placed 1 & 17 win "League 1" & "League 2"
✓ Top 8 advance to AI Sam AFL-style playoffs;
9-20 participate in the middle tier AI Shield KO;
21-28 contest the AI Plate KO (or Tailteann Cup); &
29-32 do not advance
✓ Prov Champs advance based on League placing (no Sam berth guarantee)
✓ 'Shield QF 8' earn/retain Tier 1 status the next year, with '2, 3 or 4 teams' promoted & relegated
(after PQFs: 11,12,13,14 host 20,19,16,15; and
QFs: 9,10,17,18 host PQF 'reverse seed' winners).
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Or, alternatively:
OPTION TWO
10-match Regular Season - similar to "Option One", with the following changes:
✓ After Prov QFs, draw groups of 6, 5 & 5 in each tier
✓ 10-match schedule (6 v both 5s; each 5 v own round-robin group), with all intra-tier Prov ties 'likely' included in the 10
✓ To optimise this 'likelihood' in the draw,
restrict each 'same-province, SF set', as follows:
a) put all of the set in 'one Group of 5' (not both); or
b) split it between 'one Group of 5 & the Group of 6'
[i.e. try to avoid Prov Finals between two 'Group of 6' teams, as they are KO only and do not double up].
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CALENDAR
Week Activity
-2 (mid Jan) Start of '2-3 game' Pre-Season
0 (end of Jan) End of Pre-Season Warm-Up
1 (start of Feb) 4 Prov Prelim Rd ties; and up to
12 pre-selected, pre-AILC Draw,
inter-province, 'league ties'
2 13 Prov QF Rd ties; and up to
3 pre-selected, pre-AILC Draw,
inter-province, 'league ties'
2 (after QFs) AILC Draw (2 tiers of 4x4 or 6,5,5)
2 (after Draw) Add 'Week 1 & 2 results' to tables
3 Bye Week
4 (end of Feb) Third Regular Season Round
13 (end of Apr) Rd includes all 8 Prov SFs
15 & 16 Rds include 4 Prov Finals
20 Last Regular Season Round
21 (end of June) Bye Week
22 AI Sam PSFs/PQFs, Shield PQFs & Plate QFs
23 AI Sam QFs & AI Shield QFs
24 AI Plate SFs
25 AI Sam SFs & AI Shield SFs
26 (end of July) AI Plate Final
27 (start of Aug) AI Sam Final & AI Shield Final
NOTE - As each participating team plays a schedule of 12 (or 10) 'staggered' regular season games;
a likely '0 to 2' tier-crossover Prov KO games; and
'0 to 4' AIC/post-season games over 27 weeks, the remaining 'off weeks' provide sufficient rest time.
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omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 07/05/2025 14:39:03
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@shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 322 - 07/05/2025
Following the Muns SHC model, the SFC could have:
Ulster 5 (Champ + League top 4)
"Connacht" 5 (Galway, Mayo, Rosc, Kerry, Dublin)
"Leinster" 5 (League top 5 from among 'Other 22')
Uls 3, Conn 3 & Lein 2 to AIC KO QFs.
'Remaining 17' play for Tailteann Cup, w/groups of 5, 5 & 7.
The 7 also plays 4 games, i.e. 3 v 2&2; 2s pair up.
For Mullane's SHC reform:
Muns 3 & Lein 3 in Group A; Other 5 (or 6) in B.
Highest Muns team in each group to Muns Final.
Highest Lein team in each group to Lein Final.
Highest non-Prov Final team in each group to AI QFs.
Prov Champs to AI SFs; two losing Finalists to AI QFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 07/05/2025 15:07:53
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The hurling championship should be 14 teams with whatever provincial make up.
Leinster and Munster played as knockouts.
Provincial finalists straight through to the last 10 of 2 groups of 5.
Other 10 play in 2 groups of 5. Top 3 in each group to last 10 where their group is completed by a Provincial champion plus losing finalist.
Top 3 to the All Ireland last 6.
4 teams eliminated in the first group phase go into the relegation group. Where they play the 2 teams from the other group. Bottom team relegated, 3rd placed team plays off against the tier 2 losing finalist.
You get the Provincials used for seeding the group stage, the competition is opened up a little bit to those developing counties without them having to be playing preliminary quarterfinals.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 09/05/2025 03:18:43
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