National Forum

2023 WEXFORD FOOTBALL C SHIP

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Replying To Onfor15:  "1. Pikeman has explained the situation exactly as it is.

2. It would stand up no problem to challenge because the rules allow each county to make bye laws which deviate from the general rule.

3. In relation to consistency, counties have different rules for different things all of the time, and no rule is ever set in stone. Every rule can be changed so if you believe it needs to be countrywide then bring forward a motion to repeal the regulation which allows counties to decide individually

4. Rules for ladies football or camogie competitions are not under the control of the GAA so therefore are not relevant to this discussion"
I m only asking the questions as I dont know all the rules thats for sure . Inc separate bye laws for different counties etc . Inc special dispensation that allows the almalgzmtion if tara rocks and kilanerin and possibly others already discussed hear
Just one more question as I referred all quslestions towards coiste age limits country or county wide etc . If a club or player is appealing any punishment or fine are all such committees dealing with said same hearing not made up of people from each of the coiste groups ie hurling football / ladies football and camogie . If they all have different rules how can they come to a unanimous nd conclusive decision if all working from different set of rules
I assumed the underage code of best practice covers all underage gaa groups and not just boys games Is this not the case ?
TIA for any clarification I don't know the definitive rules and am eager to get my head round it all and learn .

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 151 - 24/10/2023 13:30:30    2510059

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Another referee incident at the weekend. I was chatting to a ref and he was saying that they constantly have to take guff coming off the field from players and mentors but they just never report it. Reporters from the papers are at the games perhaps they could highlight it. I have never seen a report of a game mention any abuse from the sideline or players to officials, nothing was reported in the paper about the mentor approaching the ref after the game in the county final or the same mentor also having words with a ref the day before after their junior team were beaten. A particular player got slated and some on here had choice words about the Shels but silent of other aspects. Until everyone calls it out nothing will change - obviously the vast majority don't do it but unless it called out by everyone the minority will continue to get away with it and another referee will be assaulted.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1770 - 24/10/2023 14:35:52    2510075

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Replying To Formertownie:  "I m only asking the questions as I dont know all the rules thats for sure . Inc separate bye laws for different counties etc . Inc special dispensation that allows the almalgzmtion if tara rocks and kilanerin and possibly others already discussed hear
Just one more question as I referred all quslestions towards coiste age limits country or county wide etc . If a club or player is appealing any punishment or fine are all such committees dealing with said same hearing not made up of people from each of the coiste groups ie hurling football / ladies football and camogie . If they all have different rules how can they come to a unanimous nd conclusive decision if all working from different set of rules
I assumed the underage code of best practice covers all underage gaa groups and not just boys games Is this not the case ?
TIA for any clarification I don't know the definitive rules and am eager to get my head round it all and learn ."
Short answer is that you seem to be of the mistaken belief that there's just one Disciplinary Committee across all codes (i.e. hurling, football, ladies football and camogie) to hand out punishments for offences, and just one Hearings Committee if any of those punishments are being appealed.

There's not. The GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association are still separate associations, with their own rules, committees, and procedures.

There's a Code of Behaviour for underage games agreed across all three associations all right, but this is mainly just common sense "respect the ref, don't abuse your opponents" sort of stuff.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2148 - 24/10/2023 14:57:29    2510076

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Short answer is that you seem to be of the mistaken belief that there's just one Disciplinary Committee across all codes (i.e. hurling, football, ladies football and camogie) to hand out punishments for offences, and just one Hearings Committee if any of those punishments are being appealed.

There's not. The GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association are still separate associations, with their own rules, committees, and procedures.

There's a Code of Behaviour for underage games agreed across all three associations all right, but this is mainly just common sense "respect the ref, don't abuse your opponents" sort of stuff."
Think the code of behaviour is little bit more than thst now. Encompasses some serious issues

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 151 - 24/10/2023 17:45:12    2510121

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Think the code of behaviour is little bit more than thst now. Encompasses some serious issues"
There are two separate ones.

There's one that's shared across the three associations, and I mentioned this one because you've made a couple of mentions yourself of some sort of 'umbrella' code - I was just pointing out that while such a thing does exist, it's fairly broad strokes stuff.

There's also a much more detailed one that's specific to the GAA, and which does indeed encompass serious issues, like child safeguarding, vetting, dealing with bullying or other breaches, and best practice for everything from regular training sessions to overnight trips or weekends away.

Somewhat confusingly, they're both called "Code of Behaviour".

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2148 - 24/10/2023 23:59:33    2510151

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Ya pure arrogance from them, anyway they are the most disliked them in Wexford with the carry on"
Doubt it, Thats the Vol's.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 628 - 25/10/2023 08:54:05    2510161

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "There are two separate ones.

There's one that's shared across the three associations, and I mentioned this one because you've made a couple of mentions yourself of some sort of 'umbrella' code - I was just pointing out that while such a thing does exist, it's fairly broad strokes stuff.

There's also a much more detailed one that's specific to the GAA, and which does indeed encompass serious issues, like child safeguarding, vetting, dealing with bullying or other breaches, and best practice for everything from regular training sessions to overnight trips or weekends away.

Somewhat confusingly, they're both called "Code of Behaviour"."
Thanks pikeman I m just making the point and by yiur answers surely by now yiu would agree
That not all rules regulations are black and white or set in stone especially with different counties , bye laws age differentials . 2 codes of behaviour etc .
One ring u do agree on is the safety and protection of children .
I would find it hard to believe that most or high majority within the discipline committees or at hearings they are all up to date and coherent on all rules etc .
Can reference rule book but in occasion when I ve seen or done this it most definitely can be misinterpreted or manipulated to cover a certain direction or way of thinking .
I m not trying to prove u wrong or have go at you . You do seem to have an in depth knowledge of such things . I m just saying the pepole that adjudicate may not and leave the door open if someone want to appeal an outcome that's all . It's happened as well u know . Where legalveagles have have outcomes overturned .
One being the suspension of players for specific offences in local championship being allowed play in leinstr and relegation games as treated as separate completions.
Depending on the seriousness of punishment and offence . I personally u dont have to agree its not a chalengene would believe it could be appealed challenged and overturned . Due to lack of clarity or know how and adherence to rules or procedures .

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 151 - 25/10/2023 10:32:06    2510180

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Doubt it, Thats the Vol's."
Why would anyone team disklike the Vols they are only intermediate A, but goin Tru the records they are one of the most successful clubs in senior football, maybe other clubs are jealous,

Lockerroomboy (Wexford) - Posts: 425 - 25/10/2023 10:34:56    2510181

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "Why would anyone team disklike the Vols they are only intermediate A, but goin Tru the records they are one of the most successful clubs in senior football, maybe other clubs are jealous,"
He's just winding you up....

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1503 - 25/10/2023 11:04:39    2510190

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "He's just winding you up...."
No point in winding me up i not a Vols man, I played with two clubs in Wexford district , I just don't like other teams having a go at other clubs via social media

Lockerroomboy (Wexford) - Posts: 425 - 25/10/2023 11:53:12    2510203

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Thanks pikeman I m just making the point and by yiur answers surely by now yiu would agree
That not all rules regulations are black and white or set in stone especially with different counties , bye laws age differentials . 2 codes of behaviour etc .
One ring u do agree on is the safety and protection of children .
I would find it hard to believe that most or high majority within the discipline committees or at hearings they are all up to date and coherent on all rules etc .
Can reference rule book but in occasion when I ve seen or done this it most definitely can be misinterpreted or manipulated to cover a certain direction or way of thinking .
I m not trying to prove u wrong or have go at you . You do seem to have an in depth knowledge of such things . I m just saying the pepole that adjudicate may not and leave the door open if someone want to appeal an outcome that's all . It's happened as well u know . Where legalveagles have have outcomes overturned .
One being the suspension of players for specific offences in local championship being allowed play in leinstr and relegation games as treated as separate completions.
Depending on the seriousness of punishment and offence . I personally u dont have to agree its not a chalengene would believe it could be appealed challenged and overturned . Due to lack of clarity or know how and adherence to rules or procedures ."
It's true that some rules are not the same across all counties. This is because counties are allowed set their own bye-laws in certain areas - e.g. how they operate club catchment areas ("the parish rule"), transfers within the county, and underage grades (i.e. U13/15/17 or U14/16/18). But that doesn't make any county's rules or bye-laws any less valid.

Can assure you that the people who sit on Disciplinary and Hearings Committees do indeed know the rules. I've sat on one of those committees in the past, and I've also been on the other side of them when representing my club in appeals.

The vast majority of appeals are unsuccessful, precisely because the rules are indeed clear and set in stone. However, you almost never hear about these ones, and they certainly don't get widespread attention unless they're particularly high profile.

Successful appeals are normally successful on foot of procedural matters rather than anomalies or loopholes in the rules themselves. For example, a referee sends somebody off and cites him for striking with the hurl. The Disciplinary Committee hands down the mandatory two-match suspension. The club lodges an appeal, produces video evidence, and convinces the Hearings Committee that the appropriate offence was actually striking with the hurl with minimum force. The two-match suspension is overturned and the lesser mandatory suspension of just one match is applied instead.

Sometimes there are successful appeals because a county's bye-laws haven't been properly written or properly introduced. However, there hasn't been a case like this in Wexford for several years now.

Can't think offhand of an example of somebody who's suspended from local championship still being allowed to play in Leinster championship - do you have one in mind?

Rule Book is clear that promotion/relegation play-offs are separate competitions, and this applies nationally. I'm honestly not sure of the reason why, but I suspect it's to allow for a situation where play-offs also include round-robin games. If they were the same competitions, then scoring difference etc. from the group games of the main stage of the championship would have to be carried over into the play-offs, and could severely distort things.

Finally, yes, sometimes "legal eagles" get involved and successfully argue that there's a loophole in a rule, or that it doesn't properly cover off a situation in the way intended. But remember they do this in actual legal settings all the time too, from the District Court right up to the Supreme Court. If they can pick holes in laws of the land that are written by professional drafters, it's not surprising they can sometimes pick holes in certain GAA rules too.

Anyway, maybe that's enough about rules. If you ever do want a look at the official Rule Book yourself, all three parts of it are here: https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations/
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Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2148 - 25/10/2023 12:14:07    2510215

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "No point in winding me up i not a Vols man, I played with two clubs in Wexford district , I just don't like other teams having a go at other clubs via social media"
Somebody down in Wexford district who has had two clubs, that sounds about right.

countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 628 - 25/10/2023 13:33:08    2510235

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Somebody down in Wexford district who has had two clubs, that sounds about right."
Ya Wexford district is pretty big, when you move house and getting on in years not much choice, not as easy to change clubs now unless u stop playing for a year

Lockerroomboy (Wexford) - Posts: 425 - 25/10/2023 14:10:27    2510243

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Replying To Lockerroomboy:  "No point in winding me up i not a Vols man, I played with two clubs in Wexford district , I just don't like other teams having a go at other clubs via social media"
Not sure why but I used to think you were a Vols man too. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11215 - 25/10/2023 14:15:46    2510245

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's true that some rules are not the same across all counties. This is because counties are allowed set their own bye-laws in certain areas - e.g. how they operate club catchment areas ("the parish rule"), transfers within the county, and underage grades (i.e. U13/15/17 or U14/16/18). But that doesn't make any county's rules or bye-laws any less valid.

Can assure you that the people who sit on Disciplinary and Hearings Committees do indeed know the rules. I've sat on one of those committees in the past, and I've also been on the other side of them when representing my club in appeals.

The vast majority of appeals are unsuccessful, precisely because the rules are indeed clear and set in stone. However, you almost never hear about these ones, and they certainly don't get widespread attention unless they're particularly high profile.

Successful appeals are normally successful on foot of procedural matters rather than anomalies or loopholes in the rules themselves. For example, a referee sends somebody off and cites him for striking with the hurl. The Disciplinary Committee hands down the mandatory two-match suspension. The club lodges an appeal, produces video evidence, and convinces the Hearings Committee that the appropriate offence was actually striking with the hurl with minimum force. The two-match suspension is overturned and the lesser mandatory suspension of just one match is applied instead.

Sometimes there are successful appeals because a county's bye-laws haven't been properly written or properly introduced. However, there hasn't been a case like this in Wexford for several years now.

Can't think offhand of an example of somebody who's suspended from local championship still being allowed to play in Leinster championship - do you have one in mind?

Rule Book is clear that promotion/relegation play-offs are separate competitions, and this applies nationally. I'm honestly not sure of the reason why, but I suspect it's to allow for a situation where play-offs also include round-robin games. If they were the same competitions, then scoring difference etc. from the group games of the main stage of the championship would have to be carried over into the play-offs, and could severely distort things.

Finally, yes, sometimes "legal eagles" get involved and successfully argue that there's a loophole in a rule, or that it doesn't properly cover off a situation in the way intended. But remember they do this in actual legal settings all the time too, from the District Court right up to the Supreme Court. If they can pick holes in laws of the land that are written by professional drafters, it's not surprising they can sometimes pick holes in certain GAA rules too.

Anyway, maybe that's enough about rules. If you ever do want a look at the official Rule Book yourself, all three parts of it are here: https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations/
link"
Thank you clears up a lot
Gorey player few years back in leinster .
Don't like mentioning names.
I ll save that Web address for future reference .
Think most times people accept their punishment as its most likely deserved .
Unless it is felt harsh/based on lies, exaggeration of facts etc . or player crucial for next game/games and depending on how far or resources at the disposal what they do . Can't they find that loophole .
As I said most times deserved and accepted

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 151 - 25/10/2023 14:31:56    2510250

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's true that some rules are not the same across all counties. This is because counties are allowed set their own bye-laws in certain areas - e.g. how they operate club catchment areas ("the parish rule"), transfers within the county, and underage grades (i.e. U13/15/17 or U14/16/18). But that doesn't make any county's rules or bye-laws any less valid.

Can assure you that the people who sit on Disciplinary and Hearings Committees do indeed know the rules. I've sat on one of those committees in the past, and I've also been on the other side of them when representing my club in appeals.

The vast majority of appeals are unsuccessful, precisely because the rules are indeed clear and set in stone. However, you almost never hear about these ones, and they certainly don't get widespread attention unless they're particularly high profile.

Successful appeals are normally successful on foot of procedural matters rather than anomalies or loopholes in the rules themselves. For example, a referee sends somebody off and cites him for striking with the hurl. The Disciplinary Committee hands down the mandatory two-match suspension. The club lodges an appeal, produces video evidence, and convinces the Hearings Committee that the appropriate offence was actually striking with the hurl with minimum force. The two-match suspension is overturned and the lesser mandatory suspension of just one match is applied instead.

Sometimes there are successful appeals because a county's bye-laws haven't been properly written or properly introduced. However, there hasn't been a case like this in Wexford for several years now.

Can't think offhand of an example of somebody who's suspended from local championship still being allowed to play in Leinster championship - do you have one in mind?

Rule Book is clear that promotion/relegation play-offs are separate competitions, and this applies nationally. I'm honestly not sure of the reason why, but I suspect it's to allow for a situation where play-offs also include round-robin games. If they were the same competitions, then scoring difference etc. from the group games of the main stage of the championship would have to be carried over into the play-offs, and could severely distort things.

Finally, yes, sometimes "legal eagles" get involved and successfully argue that there's a loophole in a rule, or that it doesn't properly cover off a situation in the way intended. But remember they do this in actual legal settings all the time too, from the District Court right up to the Supreme Court. If they can pick holes in laws of the land that are written by professional drafters, it's not surprising they can sometimes pick holes in certain GAA rules too.

Anyway, maybe that's enough about rules. If you ever do want a look at the official Rule Book yourself, all three parts of it are here: https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations/
link"
Where would you find the bye laws

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 151 - 25/10/2023 14:34:12    2510252

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Replying To Formertownie:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's true that some rules are not the same across all counties. This is because counties are allowed set their own bye-laws in certain areas - e.g. how they operate club catchment areas ("the parish rule"), transfers within the county, and underage grades (i.e. U13/15/17 or U14/16/18). But that doesn't make any county's rules or bye-laws any less valid.

Can assure you that the people who sit on Disciplinary and Hearings Committees do indeed know the rules. I've sat on one of those committees in the past, and I've also been on the other side of them when representing my club in appeals.

The vast majority of appeals are unsuccessful, precisely because the rules are indeed clear and set in stone. However, you almost never hear about these ones, and they certainly don't get widespread attention unless they're particularly high profile.

Successful appeals are normally successful on foot of procedural matters rather than anomalies or loopholes in the rules themselves. For example, a referee sends somebody off and cites him for striking with the hurl. The Disciplinary Committee hands down the mandatory two-match suspension. The club lodges an appeal, produces video evidence, and convinces the Hearings Committee that the appropriate offence was actually striking with the hurl with minimum force. The two-match suspension is overturned and the lesser mandatory suspension of just one match is applied instead.

Sometimes there are successful appeals because a county's bye-laws haven't been properly written or properly introduced. However, there hasn't been a case like this in Wexford for several years now.

Can't think offhand of an example of somebody who's suspended from local championship still being allowed to play in Leinster championship - do you have one in mind?

Rule Book is clear that promotion/relegation play-offs are separate competitions, and this applies nationally. I'm honestly not sure of the reason why, but I suspect it's to allow for a situation where play-offs also include round-robin games. If they were the same competitions, then scoring difference etc. from the group games of the main stage of the championship would have to be carried over into the play-offs, and could severely distort things.

Finally, yes, sometimes "legal eagles" get involved and successfully argue that there's a loophole in a rule, or that it doesn't properly cover off a situation in the way intended. But remember they do this in actual legal settings all the time too, from the District Court right up to the Supreme Court. If they can pick holes in laws of the land that are written by professional drafters, it's not surprising they can sometimes pick holes in certain GAA rules too.

Anyway, maybe that's enough about rules. If you ever do want a look at the official Rule Book yourself, all three parts of it are here: https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations/
link"
Thank you clears up a lot
Gorey player few years back in leinster .
Don't like mentioning names.
I ll save that Web address for future reference .
Think most times people accept their punishment as its most likely deserved .
Unless it is felt harsh/based on lies, exaggeration of facts etc . or player crucial for next game/games and depending on how far or resources at the disposal what they do . Can't they find that loophole .
As I said most times deserved and accepted"
That gorey player was sent off in county semi final, was suspended for the county final. Gorey successfully delayed the suspension by appealing. Because the matter wasnt settled until after the county final he was able to play the county final but was subsequently suspended for the first round of the leinster championship

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 524 - 25/10/2023 15:22:34    2510268

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@formertownie -
if by "Gorey player going back a few years", you mean Cathal Dunbar in 2018, then I'm afraid you've got that one wrong as well.

He was sent off in the county semi-final for interfering with an opponent's helmet, and was handed the mandatory one-match ban. Gorey appealed but lost their appeal at both county and provincial level, before going all the way to the DRA in Croke Park on the Saturday night.

Things there ended up focusing on how the referee hadn't included the words "with intent" in his report, to properly reflect the rule that he was sent off under. It was decided to seek clarification from the referee (i.e. have him send in a new report), as is permitted in such circumstances, and to have another hearing then. However, this was Saturday night, and the county final was fixed for Sunday afternoon, so there was no way this was all going to happen before then, and the suspension then couldn't stand in the meantime.

Wexford CCC then had the choice of postponing the county final until the matter was resolved, or letting it go ahead with Dunbar allowed to play. Rightly or wrongly, they let it go ahead, Dunbar scored four points, and Gorey won by four.

The new hearing then took place the following week. It found that all was in order with the sending off, the updated referee's report, and the one-match ban. Dunbar served his suspension in the first round of the Leinster Championship instead.

It wasn't a case of somebody being allowed play in Leinster while suspended for Wexford Club Championship.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2148 - 25/10/2023 15:34:01    2510271

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "@formertownie -
if by "Gorey player going back a few years", you mean Cathal Dunbar in 2018, then I'm afraid you've got that one wrong as well.

He was sent off in the county semi-final for interfering with an opponent's helmet, and was handed the mandatory one-match ban. Gorey appealed but lost their appeal at both county and provincial level, before going all the way to the DRA in Croke Park on the Saturday night.

Things there ended up focusing on how the referee hadn't included the words "with intent" in his report, to properly reflect the rule that he was sent off under. It was decided to seek clarification from the referee (i.e. have him send in a new report), as is permitted in such circumstances, and to have another hearing then. However, this was Saturday night, and the county final was fixed for Sunday afternoon, so there was no way this was all going to happen before then, and the suspension then couldn't stand in the meantime.

Wexford CCC then had the choice of postponing the county final until the matter was resolved, or letting it go ahead with Dunbar allowed to play. Rightly or wrongly, they let it go ahead, Dunbar scored four points, and Gorey won by four.

The new hearing then took place the following week. It found that all was in order with the sending off, the updated referee's report, and the one-match ban. Dunbar served his suspension in the first round of the Leinster Championship instead.

It wasn't a case of somebody being allowed play in Leinster while suspended for Wexford Club Championship."
So a relegation final is a different competition but the Leinster championship isn't? Hard to get your head around all these rules

WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 145 - 25/10/2023 16:10:29    2510292

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By the way, you'll get the bye-laws from your Club Secretary, as they're circulated that way each year. There'll be a new set circulated after Convention in December, to reflect any changes made there.

They used to be on the Wexford GAA website but seem to have slipped off it during the redesign that was done a few months ago. I suspect it was an oversight rather than a deliberate decision to remove them. Maybe the updated ones will go up there as well when they're done.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2148 - 25/10/2023 16:16:27    2510294

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