National Forum

'Benefits' Of Integration

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Replying To zinny:  "It has been said of club in Wexford that has used the GAAs own rules to prevent players from playing with other clubs. A hurling only club at underage putting in a football team so that the players wouldn't join another club for football only, then giving walkovers.
The answer to your problem is simple and should also apply to the GAA, if a player was a member of a football club prior to the club where they live setting up a football club, then they could continue to play with the club in Football only. What's so difficult to solve about that? seems like you are still looking for reasons to be against it."
He is!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17255 - 16/08/2023 10:12:44    2500728

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Yesterday was tribute to LGFA and local volunteers as are. I seriously cannot see how that will benefit from integration. Self reliance and initiative is the key to most good things in this country and elsewhere. Creating bigger bureaucracies with more full time adminstrators tends to dilute core values."
LGFA have zero infrastructure they rely completely and totally on GAA good will. If Camogie go ahead and integrate as it looks like they are going to do, club juvenile and adult games will be centrally controlled by GAA the LGFA will loose out. Currently you have the ridiculous arrangement where uneven days are LGFA fixtures and Even days are Camogie. Yet with GAA Hurling/Football its alternate weeks. Its not good for duel players so I cannot see the benefit long tern in current arrangements. I am an administrator in Na Fianna in Dublin and all four codes are equally catered for. In terms of benefits for the GAA I would have thought the sheer dynamic of so many kids/famillies able to access and be part of same organisation is a superb win/win.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4958 - 16/08/2023 11:25:02    2500748

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Replying To zinny:  "It has been said of club in Wexford that has used the GAAs own rules to prevent players from playing with other clubs. A hurling only club at underage putting in a football team so that the players wouldn't join another club for football only, then giving walkovers.
The answer to your problem is simple and should also apply to the GAA, if a player was a member of a football club prior to the club where they live setting up a football club, then they could continue to play with the club in Football only. What's so difficult to solve about that? seems like you are still looking for reasons to be against it."
Zinny, you're still barking up a wrong tree here, and accusing me of something I never said or suggested.

I've never said I'm against integration, and I'm not looking for reasons to oppose it. The discussion I started was simply to question the narrative of "integration will bring benefits for all three associations". There are clear and obvious potential benefits for two of them, but not so many clear and obvious benefits for the other.

Questioning that narrative does not mean I'm against the principle of integration, or looking for reasons for it not to happen. It just means I'm thinking in depth about what exactly it would mean for all three associations.

Discussion has since moved on to some of the challenges that integration will bring. But again, pointing out there would be difficulties in certain elements of a new coordinated Rule Book is not the same thing as saying "ah, it would be too hard, so we shouldn't even try."

By the way, your proposed solution to the one being discussed right now is another that seems logical and straightforward on the face of it, but it goes against the ethos of any "parish rule" to protect small clubs. For example:

- A club in a small area has 18 players in let's say its U14 squad. For whatever reason, they decide to enter only a hurling team that year. Five of their players go off to play football with a neighbouring club under the "isolated player" rule.
- Two years later, when they have the same numbers for U16, they decide to enter football after all. Under your proposal, the five who went to the neighbouring club would be entitled to stay there. This means the other 13 still couldn't play football, even though their own club has 18 players who should be available to it.
- And for how long would those five be allowed to continue to play football for the other club, on the grounds that their own club wasn't offering them football at the time they made the move? All the way up through their adult career - i.e. up to maybe 25 years?

Again, just an example of the difficulties that an apparently straightforward solution would face when you dig into the details and possible consequences. But not a reason to not even try to do it.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 16/08/2023 12:28:52    2500770

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Replying To Viking66:  "Helmets were made mandatory at underage 1st."
Okay, I see what you mean. Semantics really, over difference between "grace period" and "staggered implementation".

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 16/08/2023 12:32:34    2500772

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Replying To Viking66:  "In other words whatever changes are made to Camogies eligibility rules would need to come into effect at u12 as they do currently in the GAA as regards which club you end up playing for. And then in a period of years as lads retire etc eventually it would be the same rule for everyone."
Yes, the same rule would eventually apply across the board all right. But the potential difficulty would still remain in the intervening years, when there would still be different membership rules based solely on gender in the same organisation.

And again - pointing out there would be potential difficulties does not mean I'm against it in the first place.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 16/08/2023 12:38:14    2500773

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Replying To arock:  "LGFA have zero infrastructure they rely completely and totally on GAA good will. If Camogie go ahead and integrate as it looks like they are going to do, club juvenile and adult games will be centrally controlled by GAA the LGFA will loose out. Currently you have the ridiculous arrangement where uneven days are LGFA fixtures and Even days are Camogie. Yet with GAA Hurling/Football its alternate weeks. Its not good for duel players so I cannot see the benefit long tern in current arrangements. I am an administrator in Na Fianna in Dublin and all four codes are equally catered for. In terms of benefits for the GAA I would have thought the sheer dynamic of so many kids/famillies able to access and be part of same organisation is a superb win/win."
I think so too. But I'm not an administrator I'm primarily considering the bigger picture and the longterm future.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17255 - 16/08/2023 17:09:54    2500862

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Obviously there is differences in rules between hurling and camogie.
Similarly between the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football (In terms of football the differences will be bigger after FRC rule changes).

Regarding the GAA merger-
Will we see the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football converging?
Similarly will we see the rules of the Hurling/ Camogie converge.

Ladies football would definitely benefit from adopting (or adapting) some of the FRC rule changes which have improved the men's game this year.

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 116 - 01/10/2025 15:52:02    2638164

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Replying To GreenMan1987:  "Obviously there is differences in rules between hurling and camogie.
Similarly between the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football (In terms of football the differences will be bigger after FRC rule changes).

Regarding the GAA merger-
Will we see the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football converging?
Similarly will we see the rules of the Hurling/ Camogie converge.

Ladies football would definitely benefit from adopting (or adapting) some of the FRC rule changes which have improved the men's game this year."
I don't actually see an issue with different playing rules applying in different codes. Camogie and/or ladies football might benefit from more closely aligning with the rules of hurling and men's football right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'd have to do it.

I did find something interesting in the most recent statement from the Integration Steering Committee. For the first time, it made mention of clubs, and what the statement said under Point 8 was this:
Clubs - Following integration, all clubs will be formally affiliated with the new GAA. In certain instances, this may result in duplication, such as where separate Camogie, GAA or Ladies Football clubs currently exist within the same area. Decisions regarding potential mergers or amalgamations will remain at the discretion of the local units, with both the approach and timing to be determined locally.

To me, this reads as though it won't follow that all GAA clubs will be automatically joined with their corresponding Camogie & LGFA clubs. Say for example, that in a place called Ballymore, there are currently clubs/teams for hurling, men's football, camogie, and ladies football. The statement suggests to me that after integration, there'd actually be three different Ballymore GAA clubs:
- one of them would be concerned with hurling & men's football.
- one of them would be concerned with camogie.
- and one of them would be concerned with ladies football.

It would remain up to these separate clubs to decide themselves if any or all wanted to join together.

That's my reading of it anyway, and I just hope the next statement is clearer. At its most basic, that most recent one - across many of its nine main points - really just seemed to say "not much will change".

Incidentally, can't help wondering if it's just coincidence that the CEOs of both the Camogie Association and the LGFA are standing down. But that'd be a whole other story.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 01/10/2025 17:34:27    2638183

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"To me, this reads as though it won't follow that all GAA clubs will be automatically joined with their corresponding Camogie & LGFA clubs"

I don't think it can. In our area for example the LGFA includes members from a rival GAA club. Integration cannot and won't happen. Many LFGA clubs may share a ground with the local GAA club but have different name/colours.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11797 - 01/10/2025 20:48:55    2638199

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Replying To GreenMan1987:  "Obviously there is differences in rules between hurling and camogie.
Similarly between the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football (In terms of football the differences will be bigger after FRC rule changes).

Regarding the GAA merger-
Will we see the rules of mens & ladies Gaelic football converging?
Similarly will we see the rules of the Hurling/ Camogie converge.

Ladies football would definitely benefit from adopting (or adapting) some of the FRC rule changes which have improved the men's game this year."
The playing rules aren't part of the integration. It's focusing on structures, facilities etc.
The playing rules can be different for all codes, and can be updated and changed as they see fit. There's no requirement at all for camogie to be the same as hurling for example, and nor would it make any sense.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2598 - 01/10/2025 23:45:16    2638209

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I don't actually see an issue with different playing rules applying in different codes. Camogie and/or ladies football might benefit from more closely aligning with the rules of hurling and men's football right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'd have to do it.

I did find something interesting in the most recent statement from the Integration Steering Committee. For the first time, it made mention of clubs, and what the statement said under Point 8 was this:
Clubs - Following integration, all clubs will be formally affiliated with the new GAA. In certain instances, this may result in duplication, such as where separate Camogie, GAA or Ladies Football clubs currently exist within the same area. Decisions regarding potential mergers or amalgamations will remain at the discretion of the local units, with both the approach and timing to be determined locally.

To me, this reads as though it won't follow that all GAA clubs will be automatically joined with their corresponding Camogie & LGFA clubs. Say for example, that in a place called Ballymore, there are currently clubs/teams for hurling, men's football, camogie, and ladies football. The statement suggests to me that after integration, there'd actually be three different Ballymore GAA clubs:
- one of them would be concerned with hurling & men's football.
- one of them would be concerned with camogie.
- and one of them would be concerned with ladies football.

It would remain up to these separate clubs to decide themselves if any or all wanted to join together.

That's my reading of it anyway, and I just hope the next statement is clearer. At its most basic, that most recent one - across many of its nine main points - really just seemed to say "not much will change".

Incidentally, can't help wondering if it's just coincidence that the CEOs of both the Camogie Association and the LGFA are standing down. But that'd be a whole other story."
You can have a separate Hurling and a Football Club in the same area, logically it may not make sense but there is nothing to stop it from existing.
If the barriers to integration have taken so long to break down at the top, forcing a timeline on clubs would be madness at this point. For some it will come easier than others but there some entrenched views, egos and personalities that will take time to resolve. However basically the governance structure above clubs would all be one.

Units/Jurisdiction
The Association is a democratic organisation comprising the following units:
(a) Clubs
(b) CountyCommittees
(c) Provincial Councils
(d) Central Council
(e) Annual Congress

Rules - perhaps they can learn from each other however if you look at rugby they try to keep it the same as men's which has not helped their cause even the size of the ball - ultimately makes it a slower game. The more the rules are the same the more people will try and compare them and expect the same so differences can be a good. The one part I hope they do make the same is player welfare. Rules around who can play adult games need to be brought in line with the GAA, its a black mark on the others that they still have not adopted these limitations.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2100 - 02/10/2025 09:46:33    2638224

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Replying To yew_tree:  ""To me, this reads as though it won't follow that all GAA clubs will be automatically joined with their corresponding Camogie & LGFA clubs"

I don't think it can. In our area for example the LGFA includes members from a rival GAA club. Integration cannot and won't happen. Many LFGA clubs may share a ground with the local GAA club but have different name/colours."
In Wexford for example, Oylgate Camogie Club includes Crossabeg/Ballymurn and Crossabeg/Ballymurn LGFA includes Oylgate. Neither will want to be combined with the Hurling and Football clubs. Perhaps in the future if numbers grow they could but there is no timeline you can put on it.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2100 - 02/10/2025 09:50:39    2638225

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "The playing rules aren't part of the integration. It's focusing on structures, facilities etc.
The playing rules can be different for all codes, and can be updated and changed as they see fit. There's no requirement at all for camogie to be the same as hurling for example, and nor would it make any sense."
Exactly. The playing rules for Football and Hurling are different as it is.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17255 - 02/10/2025 10:11:40    2638226

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Replying To zinny:  "In Wexford for example, Oylgate Camogie Club includes Crossabeg/Ballymurn and Crossabeg/Ballymurn LGFA includes Oylgate. Neither will want to be combined with the Hurling and Football clubs. Perhaps in the future if numbers grow they could but there is no timeline you can put on it."
There's a perfect example of one of the difficulties.

If it became just one Oylegate GAA club to cover hurling/football/camogie, and one Crossabeg/Ballymurn GAA club to cover hurling/football/ladies football, then a girl or woman couldn't be a playing member of both.

You'd be into all sorts of other complications revolving around either the "isolated player" rules or having to come up with some combination of Oylegate/Glenbrien & Crossabeg/Ballymurn for the women's codes. And if it's to be just one Rule Book to cover all, the current GAA Rules have various stipulations re. the governance and financing of such independent teams.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 02/10/2025 11:45:51    2638238

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Replying To zinny:  "
Replying To Pikeman96:  "I don't actually see an issue with different playing rules applying in different codes. Camogie and/or ladies football might benefit from more closely aligning with the rules of hurling and men's football right, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'd have to do it. I did find something interesting in the most recent statement from the Integration Steering Committee. For the first time, it made mention of clubs, and what the statement said under Point 8 was this: <i>Clubs - Following integration, all clubs will be formally affiliated with the new GAA. In certain instances, this may result in duplication, such as where separate Camogie, GAA or Ladies Football clubs currently exist within the same area. Decisions regarding potential mergers or amalgamations will remain at the discretion of the local units, with both the approach and timing to be determined locally.</i> To me, this reads as though it won't follow that all GAA clubs will be automatically joined with their corresponding Camogie & LGFA clubs. Say for example, that in a place called Ballymore, there are currently clubs/teams for hurling, men's football, camogie, and ladies football. The statement suggests to me that after integration, there'd actually be <u>three different</u> Ballymore GAA clubs: - one of them would be concerned with hurling & men's football. - one of them would be concerned with camogie. - and one of them would be concerned with ladies football. It would remain up to these separate clubs to decide themselves if any or all wanted to join together. That's my reading of it anyway, and I just hope the next statement is clearer. At its most basic, that most recent one - across many of its nine main points - really just seemed to say "not much will change". Incidentally, can't help wondering if it's just coincidence that the CEOs of both the Camogie Association and the LGFA are standing down. But that'd be a whole other story."</div>You can have a separate Hurling and a Football Club in the same area, logically it may not make sense but there is nothing to stop it from existing. If the barriers to integration have taken so long to break down at the top, forcing a timeline on clubs would be madness at this point. For some it will come easier than others but there some entrenched views, egos and personalities that will take time to resolve. However basically the governance structure above clubs would all be one. Units/Jurisdiction The Association is a democratic organisation comprising the following units: (a) Clubs (b) CountyCommittees (c) Provincial Councils (d) Central Council (e) Annual Congress Rules - perhaps they can learn from each other however if you look at rugby they try to keep it the same as men's which has not helped their cause even the size of the ball - ultimately makes it a slower game. The more the rules are the same the more people will try and compare them and expect the same so differences can be a good. The one part I hope they do make the same is player welfare. Rules around who can play adult games need to be brought in line with the GAA, its a black mark on the others that they still have not adopted these limitations."
There should be no issue with the integration of structures above club level. There really is no need to priortise the integration of clubs themselves, some may happen organically, others may never happen. For example, in Leitrim, a lot of the ladies clubs are amalgamations... St Francis (Drumshanbo / Ballinagleara), St Joseph's (Carrigallen / Aughavas), St Bridgets (Aughawillan / Drumreilly / Aughnasheelin), Keeldra Gaels (Cloone / Gortletteragh) .... it's unlikely any of the clubs that make up the amalgamations would be able to field themselves and it is highly unlikely that the men would amalgamate across. In the past, the most successful team in the county, Aughawillan used to have their own team made up of players from Aughawillan / Ballinamore / Aughnasheelin / Drumreilly until Ballinamore decided to form their own club. Other clubs still don't have a ladies team at all (Bornacoola but I'm not sure if their ladies join in with Annaduff... they more than likely do). As for camogie, there's only 1 team in the county, St Mary's Kiltoghert. Integration should be no issue there as it's all the one club effectively with men's, women's, hurling & camogie & underage teams. I guess the point I'm making is that none of this should be used an an excuse to delay integration of the organisations.

Square_B (Leitrim) - Posts: 1546 - 02/10/2025 12:59:36    2638246

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "There's a perfect example of one of the difficulties.

If it became just one Oylegate GAA club to cover hurling/football/camogie, and one Crossabeg/Ballymurn GAA club to cover hurling/football/ladies football, then a girl or woman couldn't be a playing member of both.

You'd be into all sorts of other complications revolving around either the "isolated player" rules or having to come up with some combination of Oylegate/Glenbrien & Crossabeg/Ballymurn for the women's codes. And if it's to be just one Rule Book to cover all, the current GAA Rules have various stipulations re. the governance and financing of such independent teams."
In most cases I'm not sure amalgamating GAA/ LGFA and Camogie will face the complications your saying.

My local GAA club is a dual club.
There is also a local LGFA Club here (which was set up about 10 years ago) but no camogie club.
Girls go to a neighbouring Camogie club to play camogie.
I doubt if that would change if the local GAA and LGFA clubs officially combined into one club as I doubt the combined club would field camogie teams.
And anyway the same issue would be there if someone decides to form a local camogie club.

Many GAA clubs only play one code and their players also play for a neighbouring club in the other code so I don't see what's the issue.

I thought the main driver for amalgamating the GAA/ LGFA and camogie associations was that local LGFA and camogie associations didn't own facilities so have to rely on local GAA clubs. Without GAA/ LGFA/ Camogie club amalgamations that would still be the case.

GreenMan1987 (Meath) - Posts: 116 - 04/10/2025 08:00:53    2638407

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "There's a perfect example of one of the difficulties.

If it became just one Oylegate GAA club to cover hurling/football/camogie, and one Crossabeg/Ballymurn GAA club to cover hurling/football/ladies football, then a girl or woman couldn't be a playing member of both.

You'd be into all sorts of other complications revolving around either the "isolated player" rules or having to come up with some combination of Oylegate/Glenbrien & Crossabeg/Ballymurn for the women's codes. And if it's to be just one Rule Book to cover all, the current GAA Rules have various stipulations re. the governance and financing of such independent teams."
I don't see it that way - the isolated player rule is designed for when a club still tried to maintain that they have both a Hurling and Football Club - this is unique to Wexford - outside of the towns do you ever think the Hurling only or Football only clubs would ever register as a Hurling or Football only club and therefore open up their parish to be amalgamated with a neighboring club in the other code - its all allowed under the rules - just never used in Wexford.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2100 - 04/10/2025 16:27:56    2638435

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Replying To zinny:  "I don't see it that way - the isolated player rule is designed for when a club still tried to maintain that they have both a Hurling and Football Club - this is unique to Wexford - outside of the towns do you ever think the Hurling only or Football only clubs would ever register as a Hurling or Football only club and therefore open up their parish to be amalgamated with a neighboring club in the other code - its all allowed under the rules - just never used in Wexford."
Sorry, have been meaning to come back to this one.

Thinking further about it, you're probably right that it wouldn't be as complicated as I first thought. A female player here joining an Oylegate-Glenbrien GAA club for camogie and joining a Crossabeg-Ballymurn GAA Club for ladies football would be no different in essence to e.g. a male player in Wicklow joining Rathnew for football and Glenealy for hurling.

Could also name any number of other examples in other counties where a male player joins one club for one code and and a different club for the other.

But the fact that this actually is so commonplace just shows that the "isolated player" rule isn't unique to Wexford. Worth bearing in mind that the term "isolated player" doesn't actually appear in the Rule Book anywhere, any more than the term "Parish Rule" does. But that example of Rathnew/Glenealy is an example of it in operation.

Somebody in Rathnew who wants to play hurling is "isolated" in the sense that Rathnew don't offer huring, so he's free to join Glenealy instead. And conversely, somebody in Glenealy who wants to play football is "isolated" because Glenealy don't do football, so he joins Rathnew for that.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3158 - 06/10/2025 23:20:13    2638767

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