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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You could reduce the length of the competition and have 2 mixed groups of 6 (or even 7)

You'd have a group of 6 be 1 half of the Munster draw and 1 half of the Leinster draw.

Provincial championship games count towards the group fixtures.

Provincial finals would be a bonus round for the participants.

Whilst the Munster championship group has been great to date, it's not actually that future proofed.

If Limerick start to dominate and if say Waterford get cut off from rest it is more likely to grow stale compared to a more mixed up format."
On balance, the best format is divisions of 6 in the league. Knockout Munster and Leinster featuring the 12 McCarthy Cup counties only. The All-Ireland then in 2 groups of 6. Provincial champions Seed 1, provincial runners-up Seed 2 and all other teams seeded on league placing. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. 6th placed teams into relegation final.
The only problem is I don't see the GAA realistically reverting back to divisions of 6 anytime soon.
Hurling divisions of 6 could just have a final in Division 1A. All other divisions could see a relegation/promotion playoff between 5th from the higher division and 2nd from the lower division.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 14/12/2023 22:30:44    2516846

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Replying To legendzxix:  "On balance, the best format is divisions of 6 in the league. Knockout Munster and Leinster featuring the 12 McCarthy Cup counties only. The All-Ireland then in 2 groups of 6. Provincial champions Seed 1, provincial runners-up Seed 2 and all other teams seeded on league placing. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. 6th placed teams into relegation final.
The only problem is I don't see the GAA realistically reverting back to divisions of 6 anytime soon.
Hurling divisions of 6 could just have a final in Division 1A. All other divisions could see a relegation/promotion playoff between 5th from the higher division and 2nd from the lower division."
You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12982 - 15/12/2023 08:09:59    2516866

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Replying To Viking66:  "You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too."
I did and I agree with it. There is merit in Whammo's suggestion however, especially if the winds of change decide the McCarthy Cup should increase to 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 15/12/2023 11:32:56    2516898

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Replying To Viking66:  "You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too."
I think a season could be played with divisions of 7, knockout provincials and 2 mixed groups of 6 for the All Ireland.

16 weeks from April to All Ireland hurling final weekend to play 11 rounds is tight but doable. It's roughly 2 rounds break, 2 rounds break.

Teams playing in a Provincial final would be straight out the next week but you could pair them up so the it's Leinster winner v Munster loser.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 15/12/2023 11:36:27    2516900

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I did and I agree with it. There is merit in Whammo's suggestion however, especially if the winds of change decide the McCarthy Cup should increase to 12."
Would be great longterm if it could get back to 15 or 16 tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12982 - 15/12/2023 12:14:04    2516909

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Replying To Viking66:  "Would be great longterm if it could get back to 15 or 16 tbh."
Is it realistic? Outside of the established top 9 and Offaly, other counties are not bringing crowds.
The current provincial structure is probably fine.
The GAA top brass were suggesting having the McDonagh final as curtain raiser to an All-Ireland semi-final. Expanding the McDonagh to 8 and having semi-finals for the top 4 is possibly the best way to achieve that, and decoupling the McDonagh from the McCarthy. The preliminary quarter-final should be unnecessary.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 15/12/2023 23:41:44    2517012

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is it realistic? Outside of the established top 9 and Offaly, other counties are not bringing crowds.
The current provincial structure is probably fine.
The GAA top brass were suggesting having the McDonagh final as curtain raiser to an All-Ireland semi-final. Expanding the McDonagh to 8 and having semi-finals for the top 4 is possibly the best way to achieve that, and decoupling the McDonagh from the McCarthy. The preliminary quarter-final should be unnecessary."
As Pikeman pointed out in another thread about Wexfords footballers if any of the middle tier counties got truly competitive the crowds would probably come out.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12982 - 16/12/2023 10:39:47    2517026

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think a season could be played with divisions of 7, knockout provincials and 2 mixed groups of 6 for the All Ireland.

16 weeks from April to All Ireland hurling final weekend to play 11 rounds is tight but doable. It's roughly 2 rounds break, 2 rounds break.

Teams playing in a Provincial final would be straight out the next week but you could pair them up so the it's Leinster winner v Munster loser."
Would you insist on matches in the 7s, Provs and 6s be played separately? - or allow ties to double-up (or even triple up) to reduce the match count?

Say - with all three competitions set up/drawn at the outset, and the 6s having 3 from each province - you could, depending on the group compositions, have a Limerick v Clare Munster SF potentially counting towards the 7 & 6 as well. If not, this pairing could be played 3 or 4 times a year (just like now) while say, Limerick might not meet Kilkenny at all, all year.

Would it be better to have League and AIC group stages merge and count more meaningfully, with more opponents played once, toward AIC qualification?

Although, isn't it great watching Limerick v Clare play 3 times a year? - should we have our cake and not want to eat it?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2766 - 17/12/2023 14:02:45    2517164

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Firstly I'm neutral in this. It would depend is the glass half full or half empty. Would teams want to qualify for provincial finals for the safety net of a quarter-final spot or settle for a preliminary quarter-final spot without a safety net with a quarter-final the following week if they get through?"
Munster 3rd/4th more likely happy with settling, cruising to QFs - Leinster 3rd/4th not so.

How about 4 groups, each team playing in 2 of them, with repeat ties doubling up [3 Leinster teams play 8 games (with 3 crossover), all 8 other teams play 7 games].

Munster 5
Leinster 6
Group A with Munster 3 Leinster 3
Group B with Munster 2 Leinster 3

Top 2 in each group advance.
Top 2 in Munster & Leinster to Prov Finals.
2 Champs to AIC SFs, with all 6 others competing for 2 other SF berths (the 6 playing 2 KO rounds, with teams qualifying twice with 'best Pts/SD per game average' earning byes to QFs). If 4 teams qualify twice - treat the Prov Finals as AIC SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2766 - 17/12/2023 14:58:49    2517175

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The All Ireland needs to be 12 teams, one table, 6 or 8 games each. Include Provincial championship games (knockout format but teams will still play most of their provincial rivals) and interprovincial fixtures in the league phase.

6 teams to the knockout round.

More matches, still a high enough bar to qualify for the knockout rounds. Knockout rounds themselves simplified.

You don't have provincial finalists being able to meet 3 times in the championship.

3 developing counties get their chance at big games each year. 1 down."
I really like this.

No safety net for losing Prov finalists as well to make the league table more valuable?

Maybe no net for Prov Champs as well?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2766 - 17/12/2023 15:07:38    2517179

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Replying To omahant:  "Would you insist on matches in the 7s, Provs and 6s be played separately? - or allow ties to double-up (or even triple up) to reduce the match count?

Say - with all three competitions set up/drawn at the outset, and the 6s having 3 from each province - you could, depending on the group compositions, have a Limerick v Clare Munster SF potentially counting towards the 7 & 6 as well. If not, this pairing could be played 3 or 4 times a year (just like now) while say, Limerick might not meet Kilkenny at all, all year.

Would it be better to have League and AIC group stages merge and count more meaningfully, with more opponents played once, toward AIC qualification?

Although, isn't it great watching Limerick v Clare play 3 times a year? - should we have our cake and not want to eat it?"
I don't think people would be very receptive to an all in merger of league and championship.

To be fair they'd have a point too, there'd maybe be too many low stakes games.

It's hard to design a season with a lot of guaranteed games in one competition without it just being games for games sake a making the climax of the league phase uninteresting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 18/12/2023 11:05:08    2517272

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Replying To omahant:  "I really like this.

No safety net for losing Prov finalists as well to make the league table more valuable?

Maybe no net for Prov Champs as well?"
Yeah no safety net for Provincial champions, their results count to the table as is and if they hadn't qualified they'd likely have performed quite badly in their other games to miss out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 18/12/2023 15:30:26    2517312

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The current McDonagh Cup evolved from the old Leinster qualifier group. The top two from the old Leinster qualifier group used to qualify for the Leinster quarter-finals. It was a tier between Leinster and the Christy Ring Cup.
The early provincial round robins originally had 5 teams each and 5 also in the McDonagh Cup. The McDonagh Cup now has 6 teams. The McDonagh Cup also determines which province has 6 teams for the next year.
As the McDonagh 6 are not allowed into the current year's Leinster or Munster championship, it seems fair that McDonagh winner only might take on the third placed team from their province in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final. This year it would have been Offaly v Wexford.
The left field curve ball part to follow! Firstly I would argue that the McDonagh 6 are part of the All-Ireland 17. While there 9 counties truly called Tier 1 counties, 17 counties do start the hurling year with a path to the All-Ireland championship.
There have been comments previously about a Team Ulster entering the All-Ireland. New York have been campaigning to enter the Lory Meagher Cup, and they are to enter next year.
New York could instead be parachuted into an All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final. This year's example would have been Cork v New York. The New York team could be allowed draft in 5 players from lower tier counties, i.e. players that competed in the Ring, Rackard or Meagher. It is a big curve ball for sure. New York would get a hurling championship game. Lower tier players would have an avenue to compete in a one off game against a top tier opponent.
Ideally the Leinster and Munster hurling championship games should be every two weeks. This could allow McDonagh, Ring, Rackard and Meagher finals to be played on the same weekend as provincial round 5. New York's preliminary quarter-final could be a curtain raiser to the Leinster final. In such a scenario, New York could look to the Ring winner's manager to be one of their selectors as he would know first hand the 5 players to draft in. There could be a stipulation of no more than one player per county. The likes of Meath, Derry, Sligo, Tyrone and Mayo could see one of their star players lining out for New York v Cork in a one off game in Croke Park!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 29/06/2024 12:32:30    2555531

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The current McDonagh Cup evolved from the old Leinster qualifier group. The top two from the old Leinster qualifier group used to qualify for the Leinster quarter-finals. It was a tier between Leinster and the Christy Ring Cup.
The early provincial round robins originally had 5 teams each and 5 also in the McDonagh Cup. The McDonagh Cup now has 6 teams. The McDonagh Cup also determines which province has 6 teams for the next year.
As the McDonagh 6 are not allowed into the current year's Leinster or Munster championship, it seems fair that McDonagh winner only might take on the third placed team from their province in the All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final. This year it would have been Offaly v Wexford.
The left field curve ball part to follow! Firstly I would argue that the McDonagh 6 are part of the All-Ireland 17. While there 9 counties truly called Tier 1 counties, 17 counties do start the hurling year with a path to the All-Ireland championship.
There have been comments previously about a Team Ulster entering the All-Ireland. New York have been campaigning to enter the Lory Meagher Cup, and they are to enter next year.
New York could instead be parachuted into an All-Ireland preliminary quarter-final. This year's example would have been Cork v New York. The New York team could be allowed draft in 5 players from lower tier counties, i.e. players that competed in the Ring, Rackard or Meagher. It is a big curve ball for sure. New York would get a hurling championship game. Lower tier players would have an avenue to compete in a one off game against a top tier opponent.
Ideally the Leinster and Munster hurling championship games should be every two weeks. This could allow McDonagh, Ring, Rackard and Meagher finals to be played on the same weekend as provincial round 5. New York's preliminary quarter-final could be a curtain raiser to the Leinster final. In such a scenario, New York could look to the Ring winner's manager to be one of their selectors as he would know first hand the 5 players to draft in. There could be a stipulation of no more than one player per county. The likes of Meath, Derry, Sligo, Tyrone and Mayo could see one of their star players lining out for New York v Cork in a one off game in Croke Park!"
the best thing you could do is climb Carantwohill stay there for a week or two and lose your mobie or tablet because you my friend are delerious.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1536 - 29/06/2024 22:20:02    2555775

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Replying To jobber:  "the best thing you could do is climb Carantwohill stay there for a week or two and lose your mobie or tablet because you my friend are delerious."
LOL! I'll take the hit, like any forward bearing down on goal, shrugging off a hefty challenge.
Donal Óg Cusack has spoken before about a Team Ulster. Kerry and Cork have divisional clubs in football.
15 of 32 counties compete in the Ring, Rackard or Meagher. If the divisional concept could be brought in to the All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship in some form, the best of players from those 15 counties would be given the opportunity to compete in a preliminary quarter-final. Left field for sure but not a million miles away from the idea Donal Óg Cusack has been floating.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 30/06/2024 07:25:42    2555844

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Replying To legendzxix:  "LOL! I'll take the hit, like any forward bearing down on goal, shrugging off a hefty challenge.
Donal Óg Cusack has spoken before about a Team Ulster. Kerry and Cork have divisional clubs in football.
15 of 32 counties compete in the Ring, Rackard or Meagher. If the divisional concept could be brought in to the All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship in some form, the best of players from those 15 counties would be given the opportunity to compete in a preliminary quarter-final. Left field for sure but not a million miles away from the idea Donal Óg Cusack has been floating."
I know you think deeply about our second tier counties but relax Joe Mcdonagh is a great competition marketed badly.Offaly the 2024 winners will survive in Mccarthy next year and grow afrer that.The 2025 winners Laois or Westmeath(Sorry Carlow this years effort will cost) will do the same in 2026.
.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1536 - 01/07/2024 22:55:23    2556406

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Replying To jobber:  "I know you think deeply about our second tier counties but relax Joe Mcdonagh is a great competition marketed badly.Offaly the 2024 winners will survive in Mccarthy next year and grow afrer that.The 2025 winners Laois or Westmeath(Sorry Carlow this years effort will cost) will do the same in 2026.
."
The McDonagh is great indeed and in my opinion should be marketed more as being part of the All-Ireland 17.
It's the 15 of 32 counties in the Ring, Rackard and Meagher that could benefit from Donal Og Cusack's Team Ulster approach. Definitely a curve ball but why not offer the best players from these counties an opportunity as an amalgamation against a third placed provincial county. Call the amalgamation "Cú Chulainn" or something appropriate.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 02/07/2024 10:37:38    2556451

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if they ran the McDonogh Cup parallel to the AI series they could:
Expand it to 8 teams (so Kildare and Derry would come up, nobody would go down at least the first year, subsequent years you would have one up one down from provincials and Ring)
This would allow more games and also space games out more. Teams in McDonogh have shallower talent pools so more important to have more recovery time
Play games on weekends when there are no or fewer provincial or AI games (I dont like football, and would much rather watch a McDonogh hurling game than a football game. The goal would be hurling every championship weekend but fewer weekends with both McDonogh and provincial or AI games. More TV coverage
Give the competition more time to breathe- right now its played off in an indecent haste in order to have two sacrifical lambs go into the AI series
Allow for a knockout series (semis) at the end of it. This would mean few dead rubbers (jeopardy for most games with top 4 qualifying and bottom team going down. You could reward the top two with home semis
Allow the final to be played on the AI weekend (Saturday evening, under lights in Croke Park or even say Portlaoise
End this meaningless charade of pretending to support weaker counties by allowing them to play a preliminary QF the week after the most important game of their season. One team devestated by a loss the other celebrating a win and players from both taking their holidays

Yadse (Limerick) - Posts: 37 - 02/07/2024 14:34:52    2556537

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Replying To Yadse:  "if they ran the McDonogh Cup parallel to the AI series they could:
Expand it to 8 teams (so Kildare and Derry would come up, nobody would go down at least the first year, subsequent years you would have one up one down from provincials and Ring)
This would allow more games and also space games out more. Teams in McDonogh have shallower talent pools so more important to have more recovery time
Play games on weekends when there are no or fewer provincial or AI games (I dont like football, and would much rather watch a McDonogh hurling game than a football game. The goal would be hurling every championship weekend but fewer weekends with both McDonogh and provincial or AI games. More TV coverage
Give the competition more time to breathe- right now its played off in an indecent haste in order to have two sacrifical lambs go into the AI series
Allow for a knockout series (semis) at the end of it. This would mean few dead rubbers (jeopardy for most games with top 4 qualifying and bottom team going down. You could reward the top two with home semis
Allow the final to be played on the AI weekend (Saturday evening, under lights in Croke Park or even say Portlaoise
End this meaningless charade of pretending to support weaker counties by allowing them to play a preliminary QF the week after the most important game of their season. One team devestated by a loss the other celebrating a win and players from both taking their holidays"
That is a good point about playing Q/ Final a week after the JMcD Final. Players on both teams will experience different emotions post Final.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1829 - 02/07/2024 20:14:30    2556604

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