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Let Leinster and Munster return to the good old days BUT on a round robin format. Set up the JMCD, apparently its a great tournament, so let the counties who were not being challenged sufficiently or getting enough games go into that - again on a round robin. Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, all go in initially too and any other team that does not want to play in their provincial championship - possibly, Kerry, Carlow etc. etc. etc.
For example, Kilkenny and Cork win their provincial finals, they go straight to AI semi finals. Say Galway wins the JMD, They are titled as JMD and Connaught Champions, if say Antrim or Down win it, they are JMCD and Ulster Champions by default. If a Leinster or Munster team win it they are simply JMC champions only, as they have provinces with an active senior hurling championships, they go to semi final - The JMD runner up, joins a 3 way play off against the 2 beat provincial finalists - open draw them 3) the winners of that 3 way play off go in as last AI semi finalist. Usual rules apply, you cannot play a team you played in the current championships again BEFORE the AI final. Other than that the semi final could be a draw either to see who plays the 2 provincial champions.
The bottom teams in both Leinster and Munster round robins each year, drop down to the JMCD the following year, it shouldnt matter if its Cork or Tipp in Munster or Kilkenny or Wexford or Dublin in Leinster..
I know people will pick holes in the above - but its something I think might work, might need to be tweeked but it would give Leinster back its own provincial championship identity, and bring Munster to a par with teams having to drop out of it too if they finish bottom in Munster..no doubt someone else has a version of above mentioned already...
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 25/05/2023 12:31:06
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Replying To Fairplayalways: "Let Leinster and Munster return to the good old days BUT on a round robin format. Set up the JMCD, apparently its a great tournament, so let the counties who were not being challenged sufficiently or getting enough games go into that - again on a round robin. Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, all go in initially too and any other team that does not want to play in their provincial championship - possibly, Kerry, Carlow etc. etc. etc.
For example, Kilkenny and Cork win their provincial finals, they go straight to AI semi finals. Say Galway wins the JMD, They are titled as JMD and Connaught Champions, if say Antrim or Down win it, they are JMCD and Ulster Champions by default. If a Leinster or Munster team win it they are simply JMC champions only, as they have provinces with an active senior hurling championships, they go to semi final - The JMD runner up, joins a 3 way play off against the 2 beat provincial finalists - open draw them 3) the winners of that 3 way play off go in as last AI semi finalist. Usual rules apply, you cannot play a team you played in the current championships again BEFORE the AI final. Other than that the semi final could be a draw either to see who plays the 2 provincial champions.
The bottom teams in both Leinster and Munster round robins each year, drop down to the JMCD the following year, it shouldnt matter if its Cork or Tipp in Munster or Kilkenny or Wexford or Dublin in Leinster..
I know people will pick holes in the above - but its something I think might work, might need to be tweeked but it would give Leinster back its own provincial championship identity, and bring Munster to a par with teams having to drop out of it too if they finish bottom in Munster..no doubt someone else has a version of above mentioned already..." Great ideas, but I wouldn't be letting any Munster or Leinster counties into the JMC either, let them shhtay in their own provinces.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3410 - 25/05/2023 12:55:53
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "Great ideas, but I wouldn't be letting any Munster or Leinster counties into the JMC either, let them shhtay in their own provinces." sure that sort of backs up my argument about yourselves Galway, and Antrim being allowed into Leinster, if provincial isnt strong in both Connaught and Ulster, this (JMD) is the competition you win to get into the AI semi final, with a team each coming down each year from both Leinster and Munster it will have 2 good teams in it the following year to keep it competitive..no one should be barred from dropping to JMCD, if you win it, your treated same as provincial champion, one other spot in AI semi finals is made up from second placed JMC and two beaten provinincial finalists (1 of them 3)
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 25/05/2023 14:01:52
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Replying To Fairplayalways: "Let Leinster and Munster return to the good old days BUT on a round robin format. Set up the JMCD, apparently its a great tournament, so let the counties who were not being challenged sufficiently or getting enough games go into that - again on a round robin. Galway, Antrim, Down, Derry, all go in initially too and any other team that does not want to play in their provincial championship - possibly, Kerry, Carlow etc. etc. etc.
For example, Kilkenny and Cork win their provincial finals, they go straight to AI semi finals. Say Galway wins the JMD, They are titled as JMD and Connaught Champions, if say Antrim or Down win it, they are JMCD and Ulster Champions by default. If a Leinster or Munster team win it they are simply JMC champions only, as they have provinces with an active senior hurling championships, they go to semi final - The JMD runner up, joins a 3 way play off against the 2 beat provincial finalists - open draw them 3) the winners of that 3 way play off go in as last AI semi finalist. Usual rules apply, you cannot play a team you played in the current championships again BEFORE the AI final. Other than that the semi final could be a draw either to see who plays the 2 provincial champions.
The bottom teams in both Leinster and Munster round robins each year, drop down to the JMCD the following year, it shouldnt matter if its Cork or Tipp in Munster or Kilkenny or Wexford or Dublin in Leinster..
I know people will pick holes in the above - but its something I think might work, might need to be tweeked but it would give Leinster back its own provincial championship identity, and bring Munster to a par with teams having to drop out of it too if they finish bottom in Munster..no doubt someone else has a version of above mentioned already..." After 1 year the Munster and Leinster championships probably won't just have Munster and Leinster counties in them though?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11734 - 25/05/2023 14:29:12
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I think the biggest stumbling block to any format change is the Munster Final. If any round robin format can keep the Munster Final in place I think it has a chance. If it doesn't then I can't see it being passed.
I put a proposal on this page below but a few respected posters pointed out the problem that the top sides from one province could finish down the league table, but be guaranteed a provincial final place.
https://www.hoganstand.com/Forum/Details/112166?County=National&PageNumber=24&TopicID=112166
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 25/05/2023 15:15:01
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I still fail to see the issue with knock out provincial championships, followed by a 2 x 6 round robin.
Like, lets be real here. We all want the game to extend beyond the traditional few, or at least most would.
A knock-out provincial championships means for example Kildare or Carlow or whoever (arbitrary examples before anyone jumps) could enter a Leinster championship at the quarter final, give it a rattle and who knows maybe take a scalp which they can then build on. If it goes wrong and they got a bad beating off Kilkenny or Galway for example, its 1 bad day and they can then move in to Joe McDonagh and get games there and hope to build that way.
I don't see any proposal as "saving hurling" (game has never had as many potential winners), but whatever the next iteration of the championship format is, it has to have development of hurling outside the traditional few counties as priority #1 and priority #2 has to be an even playing field on promotion/relegation.
Unless we never want to see another Offaly. Maybe some don't but that is protectionism.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 25/05/2023 16:31:20
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I still fail to see the issue with knock out provincial championships, followed by a 2 x 6 round robin.
Like, lets be real here. We all want the game to extend beyond the traditional few, or at least most would.
A knock-out provincial championships means for example Kildare or Carlow or whoever (arbitrary examples before anyone jumps) could enter a Leinster championship at the quarter final, give it a rattle and who knows maybe take a scalp which they can then build on. If it goes wrong and they got a bad beating off Kilkenny or Galway for example, its 1 bad day and they can then move in to Joe McDonagh and get games there and hope to build that way.
I don't see any proposal as "saving hurling" (game has never had as many potential winners), but whatever the next iteration of the championship format is, it has to have development of hurling outside the traditional few counties as priority #1 and priority #2 has to be an even playing field on promotion/relegation.
Unless we never want to see another Offaly. Maybe some don't but that is protectionism." I think your idea is very good - just wonder how seriously teams would take the provincial championships then?
BUT - this was asked too when the first 'back door' came to pass in 1997 and now in the 27th Munster Championship since then teams still want to win it.
So, thumbs up here.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 25/05/2023 17:16:37
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While the people were singing the praises of this new system I always said it was flawed. Any national competition should not be based on a provincial qualification. Take for instance this year and I will leave us out of it. After this week the sixth best team is out without taking part in the national competition. Most often probably the fifth and sixth best teams can be out while 7th and 8th can be in. Not the best way to determine national champions. I will always put Kilkenny and Galway in the top group of best teams from one to sixth. A true national competition would allow all teams compete while still having promotion and relegation to it.
I am not making this a Leinster, Munster argument. If Munster and Leinster wants to have a provincial championship go ahead and this can be done by now scraping the defunct no interest league.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 25/05/2023 18:06:02
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I still fail to see the issue with knock out provincial championships, followed by a 2 x 6 round robin.
Like, lets be real here. We all want the game to extend beyond the traditional few, or at least most would.
A knock-out provincial championships means for example Kildare or Carlow or whoever (arbitrary examples before anyone jumps) could enter a Leinster championship at the quarter final, give it a rattle and who knows maybe take a scalp which they can then build on. If it goes wrong and they got a bad beating off Kilkenny or Galway for example, its 1 bad day and they can then move in to Joe McDonagh and get games there and hope to build that way.
I don't see any proposal as "saving hurling" (game has never had as many potential winners), but whatever the next iteration of the championship format is, it has to have development of hurling outside the traditional few counties as priority #1 and priority #2 has to be an even playing field on promotion/relegation.
Unless we never want to see another Offaly. Maybe some don't but that is protectionism." There won't be any change because Munster council won't give up its money maker. An open draw is the fairest format. You'll still have big crowds. Nowlan Park would be packed for the visit of Cork or Tipp. Galway and Clare are neighbours. A knockout provincial structure would be better and you can still reward the provincial champions. The elephant in the room is the league. We pretty much have two warm up competitions before the actual championship starts.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 25/05/2023 19:10:42
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Has Anybody Thought Of This Proposal "To Save Hurling"
Save hurling from what?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2447 - 25/05/2023 19:57:26
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I still fail to see the issue with knock out provincial championships, followed by a 2 x 6 round robin.
Like, lets be real here. We all want the game to extend beyond the traditional few, or at least most would.
A knock-out provincial championships means for example Kildare or Carlow or whoever (arbitrary examples before anyone jumps) could enter a Leinster championship at the quarter final, give it a rattle and who knows maybe take a scalp which they can then build on. If it goes wrong and they got a bad beating off Kilkenny or Galway for example, its 1 bad day and they can then move in to Joe McDonagh and get games there and hope to build that way.
I don't see any proposal as "saving hurling" (game has never had as many potential winners), but whatever the next iteration of the championship format is, it has to have development of hurling outside the traditional few counties as priority #1 and priority #2 has to be an even playing field on promotion/relegation.
Unless we never want to see another Offaly. Maybe some don't but that is protectionism." Very good post. I'd agree with you on all points.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 26/05/2023 09:24:14
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Replying To slayer: "I think the biggest stumbling block to any format change is the Munster Final. If any round robin format can keep the Munster Final in place I think it has a chance. If it doesn't then I can't see it being passed.
I put a proposal on this page below but a few respected posters pointed out the problem that the top sides from one province could finish down the league table, but be guaranteed a provincial final place.
https://www.hoganstand.com/Forum/Details/112166?County=National&PageNumber=24&TopicID=112166" I think you could save the Provincial finals in a round robin.
Play the provincials as knockout competitions with the round robin. 12 Teams play 5 home, 5 away, 1 neutral game (in case a Provincial final is a neutral game, a Dublin in Croke Leinster final wouldn't be a neutral game).
It just means that the fixtures aren't set in stone before the season starts.
Galway and Antrim wouldn't even need to be in Leinster either.
The Munster and Leinster champions wouldn't be guaranteed to qualify for the last 6 but their good provincial results should get them well on their way.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 26/05/2023 09:30:57
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I didn't bother reading all the posts. The heading is enough. Save hurling from what ?? There's an excellent system in place. Look at ll cracking matches so far this year and we still have another round robin to go before the provential finals. Careful what you wish for!!!! If It ain't broke ......
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1649 - 26/05/2023 09:50:02
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Replying To slayer: "I think your idea is very good - just wonder how seriously teams would take the provincial championships then?
BUT - this was asked too when the first 'back door' came to pass in 1997 and now in the 27th Munster Championship since then teams still want to win it.
So, thumbs up here." My idea was the top team in Munster/Leinster are "seeded" in the round robins. Then comes the loser of the other provincial final.
After that, open draw for the other 8 teams.
You could also give them "3 x home games" including one against the loser of the other province. So say Limerick won Munster their game v loser of Kilkenny/Galway is a designated "home" game for them.
There's ways and means for everything.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 26/05/2023 10:51:29
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Replying To eoinog: "I didn't bother reading all the posts. The heading is enough. Save hurling from what ?? There's an excellent system in place. Look at ll cracking matches so far this year and we still have another round robin to go before the provential finals. Careful what you wish for!!!! If It ain't broke ......" It's not broken but it could be tweaked to make it more fair between provinces and more sensibly give opportunities to developing counties.
The games being good masks a few issues created by the provincial structure.
If Wexford get relegated I think there are going to be questions asked around why are Waterford safe automatically.
The system doesn't really work at all well for Kerry.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 26/05/2023 11:03:59
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Replying To Viking66: "After 1 year the Munster and Leinster championships probably won't just have Munster and Leinster counties in them though?" yes, sure thats the way Leinster is for the last good few years, whats good for the goose is good for the gander as they say..
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 26/05/2023 14:40:23
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please dont go discussing tweeking the current system here, the post is about the alternative that as far as I can see no one has come up with yet..
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 26/05/2023 14:42:24
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I'll give it a go.
Bring the lenister and munster championship back to the knockout championship. Also, have the joe mcdonagh as a knockout championship.
Munster 5 teams
Lenister 5 teams
Jmd. 6 teams
Once the provisional championships are over, teams are drawn into 4 groups of 4 for the All ireland series.
1.Lenister,munster,jmd & one of the finalists are tier 1 seeded.
2. The other finalists and 2 of the semi-finalists are in tier 2 seeded.
3. Then, the rest of the teams (includes one semi-finalists)are drawn into the groups for the 3rd and 4th position groups.
4. Each team plays 3 matches. Like the football. 1 home, 1 away, and 1 netural.
5. Top 2 of each group qualify for the quarter finals. The top team plays 2nd team of a different group.
For the relegation, the 2 teams in the lenister that loses the quarter finals play off with each other to see who goes down. Same with the jmd. Then whoever wins the jmd goes up.
Probably alot of holes in this format, but sure, I said I'd give it a go.
I think it would be because after the provincial, you could have the likes of limerick playing galway in pearse stadium or kilkenny playing clare in cussack Park. Plus, I think a team should get knocked out in the all ireland series. This weekend, we could see either limerick or cork getting knocked out, and they have the potential of winning the all ireland. Also the likes of Waterford only 3 years ago they were the best equipped team to challenge limerick and they can't even get out of munster now, but they could beat dublin and galway and kilkenny once they play to their potential.
This would also give the joe mcdonagh teams a taste of the all ireland series, too.
An example of the groups would be
A. B. C. D
1 Galway. Clare. Offaly. Tipp
2 limerick Kilkenny. Cork. Dublin
3 carlow. Waterford. Wexford. Laois
4 antrim. Kerry. Down. Westmeath
I probably didn't do myself any favours trying to explain this format and probably talking a load of crap but if anyone can understand this please let me know what ye think and if there is any changes what would ye change.
At the minute I'm enjoying the championship. Munster championship has been very enjoyable. Lenister games has been good with one or 2 surprises but other than that has been very predicable. And this weekend should be a good finish to the group stages and unfortunately cork or limerick will be out of
The championship but that's the nature of the championship.
Off_the_post (Galway) - Posts: 4 - 26/05/2023 22:01:15
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Replying To Off_the_post: "I'll give it a go.
Bring the lenister and munster championship back to the knockout championship. Also, have the joe mcdonagh as a knockout championship.
Munster 5 teams
Lenister 5 teams
Jmd. 6 teams
Once the provisional championships are over, teams are drawn into 4 groups of 4 for the All ireland series.
1.Lenister,munster,jmd & one of the finalists are tier 1 seeded.
2. The other finalists and 2 of the semi-finalists are in tier 2 seeded.
3. Then, the rest of the teams (includes one semi-finalists)are drawn into the groups for the 3rd and 4th position groups.
4. Each team plays 3 matches. Like the football. 1 home, 1 away, and 1 netural.
5. Top 2 of each group qualify for the quarter finals. The top team plays 2nd team of a different group.
For the relegation, the 2 teams in the lenister that loses the quarter finals play off with each other to see who goes down. Same with the jmd. Then whoever wins the jmd goes up.
Probably alot of holes in this format, but sure, I said I'd give it a go.
I think it would be because after the provincial, you could have the likes of limerick playing galway in pearse stadium or kilkenny playing clare in cussack Park. Plus, I think a team should get knocked out in the all ireland series. This weekend, we could see either limerick or cork getting knocked out, and they have the potential of winning the all ireland. Also the likes of Waterford only 3 years ago they were the best equipped team to challenge limerick and they can't even get out of munster now, but they could beat dublin and galway and kilkenny once they play to their potential.
This would also give the joe mcdonagh teams a taste of the all ireland series, too.
An example of the groups would be
A. B. C. D
1 Galway. Clare. Offaly. Tipp
2 limerick Kilkenny. Cork. Dublin
3 carlow. Waterford. Wexford. Laois
4 antrim. Kerry. Down. Westmeath
I probably didn't do myself any favours trying to explain this format and probably talking a load of crap but if anyone can understand this please let me know what ye think and if there is any changes what would ye change.
At the minute I'm enjoying the championship. Munster championship has been very enjoyable. Lenister games has been good with one or 2 surprises but other than that has been very predicable. And this weekend should be a good finish to the group stages and unfortunately cork or limerick will be out of
The championship but that's the nature of the championship." Too drastic. 12 teams in the 2 All-Ireland groups of 6 will suffice. The 12 All-Ireland teams can compete in knockout provincial championships.
The McDonagh could be expanded to one group of 8. Top 4 into semi-finals. Top 2 with hone advantage in the semi-finals. The McDonagh final offering promotion only. The McDonagh final could be played before an All-Ireland semi-final, similar to how the Tailteann final is played before an All-Ireland football semi-final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7824 - 27/05/2023 07:05:00
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Is this a wind up? Save hurling from what? "Give Leinster back its own provincial identity"? What identity is that? Kilkenny cakewalking through 4 games? Hammering Westmeath and Kildare and Offaly by 40 points? The Leinster championship is bad enough as it is without removing the only team that makes it competitive. Perhaps remove the name 'Leinster' from it if it still bothers some
PressureKick (UK) - Posts: 209 - 27/05/2023 08:34:26
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