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Given that Rugby Union's successful "Six Nations" tournament has certain 'subsets' of participating nations competing for the Triple Crown and Calcutta Cup as well - why not similarly 'double up' Provincial SFC (and league) matches into the new, but extended/ combined, AIC group phase?
Say, after all Provincial QFs are played (moved up to mid-Feb) - draw 4 groups of 4 for Tier 1 (and similarly for Tier 2) - with no more than one SF team from each province drawn to each group, and with each of the QF and 1st Rd losers drawn to a group different from that of the team that beat them.
This structure facilitates a 'full crossover 12-match regular season', wherein each team plays against all teams in the other three 'own-tier' groups - including 'most' KO Provincial ties - ('most', as Provincial 'Tier 1v2' pairings can't double up, and so, are played separately. Alternatively, Tier 2 teams could be excluded from Provincial Championships).
In Tier 1, 4 group winners and 4 best others advance to 'Liam McCarthy Cup, Last 8-style Playoffs' - and similar to the Aussie AFL - 4 best record teams get a double chance (like in Provincial SHC Finals), while 4 others enter the KO QF Playoff Rd.
Tier 2 advances a similar 'Playoff 8', but they merge with the 'Tier 1 Non-Playoff 8', to create a 16-team strong, Tier 1.5 "AI Shield" playoff field instead (8 of the 'Shield 16', including the Tier 2 top 4, get a double chance).
Tier 1 'Playoff 8' & Tier 1.5 'Shield KO QF 8' play in the Tier 1 4x4 group phase in the following year - so while providing plenty of ebb and flo - Tier 2 promotion berths from the Shield is variable, as Tier 1 teams play to retain their status.
The Provincial Championship pairings regain relevance, as teams also strive for group points (like in the SHC), in pursuit of advancing to the AIC Playoffs, which is only possible via group phase qualification (no automatic berths for Provincial Champions, although they are expected to advance).
What do you think?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 01/05/2023 17:58:53
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Replying To omahant: "Given that Rugby Union's successful "Six Nations" tournament has certain 'subsets' of participating nations competing for the Triple Crown and Calcutta Cup as well - why not similarly 'double up' Provincial SFC (and league) matches into the new, but extended/ combined, AIC group phase?
Say, after all Provincial QFs are played (moved up to mid-Feb) - draw 4 groups of 4 for Tier 1 (and similarly for Tier 2) - with no more than one SF team from each province drawn to each group, and with each of the QF and 1st Rd losers drawn to a group different from that of the team that beat them.
This structure facilitates a 'full crossover 12-match regular season', wherein each team plays against all teams in the other three 'own-tier' groups - including 'most' KO Provincial ties - ('most', as Provincial 'Tier 1v2' pairings can't double up, and so, are played separately. Alternatively, Tier 2 teams could be excluded from Provincial Championships).
In Tier 1, 4 group winners and 4 best others advance to 'Liam McCarthy Cup, Last 8-style Playoffs' - and similar to the Aussie AFL - 4 best record teams get a double chance (like in Provincial SHC Finals), while 4 others enter the KO QF Playoff Rd.
Tier 2 advances a similar 'Playoff 8', but they merge with the 'Tier 1 Non-Playoff 8', to create a 16-team strong, Tier 1.5 "AI Shield" playoff field instead (8 of the 'Shield 16', including the Tier 2 top 4, get a double chance).
Tier 1 'Playoff 8' & Tier 1.5 'Shield KO QF 8' play in the Tier 1 4x4 group phase in the following year - so while providing plenty of ebb and flo - Tier 2 promotion berths from the Shield is variable, as Tier 1 teams play to retain their status.
The Provincial Championship pairings regain relevance, as teams also strive for group points (like in the SHC), in pursuit of advancing to the AIC Playoffs, which is only possible via group phase qualification (no automatic berths for Provincial Champions, although they are expected to advance).
What do you think?" You know it'd be possible to qualify for the knockout rounds with 0 wins in your system.
This would get zero popular support because it's over engineered.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 02/05/2023 13:10:56
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Replying To Whammo86: "You know it'd be possible to qualify for the knockout rounds with 0 wins in your system.
This would get zero popular support because it's over engineered." That's fair.
1) 0 Pts - You mean all teams in a group lose all their games.
This is highly unlikely given the spread/limit of one Ulster SF and one Connacht SF team across the groups.
So, you prefer '8 best record' teams then? - which is very acceptable - given the spread though, I'd expect the four group winners to be present, but OK - good point, let's amend.
2) Over-Engineered - Maybe, it is (not sure).
This is a weak point - 'complexity' should not be confused with 'confusing' - and is done for good reason, not for the sake if it.
The main purpose of the groups is for fixture formation and the incorporation of Provincial ties to make them meaningful.
SHC has teams earning group points for Provincial results - SFC should, 'somehow', have the same.
At a basic level, restrictions are not more elaborate than in the actual AIC Group Draw - I have QF winners kept apart, and each QF & 1st Rd loser kept apart from the team that beat them - that's it.
Tier 1.5 Playoffs is akin to Nations League or Scottish League cross-division promotion/ relegation.
Wouldn't the 'Shield 16' be a cracker?
My Plan is not more complex than UEFA's Nations League and Euro/World Cup qualification process for 'Women' (especially AvC & BvB playoffs) - check it out - should be adopted for Men too!
Thanks for your response.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 02/05/2023 14:57:04
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Replying To omahant: "That's fair.
1) 0 Pts - You mean all teams in a group lose all their games.
This is highly unlikely given the spread/limit of one Ulster SF and one Connacht SF team across the groups.
So, you prefer '8 best record' teams then? - which is very acceptable - given the spread though, I'd expect the four group winners to be present, but OK - good point, let's amend.
2) Over-Engineered - Maybe, it is (not sure).
This is a weak point - 'complexity' should not be confused with 'confusing' - and is done for good reason, not for the sake if it.
The main purpose of the groups is for fixture formation and the incorporation of Provincial ties to make them meaningful.
SHC has teams earning group points for Provincial results - SFC should, 'somehow', have the same.
At a basic level, restrictions are not more elaborate than in the actual AIC Group Draw - I have QF winners kept apart, and each QF & 1st Rd loser kept apart from the team that beat them - that's it.
Tier 1.5 Playoffs is akin to Nations League or Scottish League cross-division promotion/ relegation.
Wouldn't the 'Shield 16' be a cracker?
My Plan is not more complex than UEFA's Nations League and Euro/World Cup qualification process for 'Women' (especially AvC & BvB playoffs) - check it out - should be adopted for Men too!
Thanks for your response." Thanks for waiting.
Tier 1.5 Playoffs is akin to Nations League or Scottish League cross-division promotion/ relegation.
Wouldn't the 'Shield 16' be a cracker?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 05/05/2023 18:09:31
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Sorry couldn't follow that at all
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1663 - 07/05/2023 22:15:43
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Replying To omahant: "Given that Rugby Union's successful "Six Nations" tournament has certain 'subsets' of participating nations competing for the Triple Crown and Calcutta Cup as well - why not similarly 'double up' Provincial SFC (and league) matches into the new, but extended/ combined, AIC group phase?
Say, after all Provincial QFs are played (moved up to mid-Feb) - draw 4 groups of 4 for Tier 1 (and similarly for Tier 2) - with no more than one SF team from each province drawn to each group, and with each of the QF and 1st Rd losers drawn to a group different from that of the team that beat them.
This structure facilitates a 'full crossover 12-match regular season', wherein each team plays against all teams in the other three 'own-tier' groups - including 'most' KO Provincial ties - ('most', as Provincial 'Tier 1v2' pairings can't double up, and so, are played separately. Alternatively, Tier 2 teams could be excluded from Provincial Championships).
In Tier 1, 4 group winners and 4 best others advance to 'Liam McCarthy Cup, Last 8-style Playoffs' - and similar to the Aussie AFL - 4 best record teams get a double chance (like in Provincial SHC Finals), while 4 others enter the KO QF Playoff Rd.
Tier 2 advances a similar 'Playoff 8', but they merge with the 'Tier 1 Non-Playoff 8', to create a 16-team strong, Tier 1.5 "AI Shield" playoff field instead (8 of the 'Shield 16', including the Tier 2 top 4, get a double chance).
Tier 1 'Playoff 8' & Tier 1.5 'Shield KO QF 8' play in the Tier 1 4x4 group phase in the following year - so while providing plenty of ebb and flo - Tier 2 promotion berths from the Shield is variable, as Tier 1 teams play to retain their status.
The Provincial Championship pairings regain relevance, as teams also strive for group points (like in the SHC), in pursuit of advancing to the AIC Playoffs, which is only possible via group phase qualification (no automatic berths for Provincial Champions, although they are expected to advance).
What do you think?" Sorry, way too convoluted.
Half the fans won't even know what to make of it.
I hate the complicated nature of the current football championship, where many fans don't even know what their team is doing next, or even what competition they'll be drawn in ,, and I know it's not rocket science but the gaa is in a bad enough state at the minute without expecting fans to spend time memorising the format or relying on pundits to see whether or not their teams games mean anything.
Let's just keep it simple.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1719 - 07/05/2023 23:07:32
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Replying To omahant: "Given that Rugby Union's successful "Six Nations" tournament has certain 'subsets' of participating nations competing for the Triple Crown and Calcutta Cup as well - why not similarly 'double up' Provincial SFC (and league) matches into the new, but extended/ combined, AIC group phase?
Say, after all Provincial QFs are played (moved up to mid-Feb) - draw 4 groups of 4 for Tier 1 (and similarly for Tier 2) - with no more than one SF team from each province drawn to each group, and with each of the QF and 1st Rd losers drawn to a group different from that of the team that beat them.
This structure facilitates a 'full crossover 12-match regular season', wherein each team plays against all teams in the other three 'own-tier' groups - including 'most' KO Provincial ties - ('most', as Provincial 'Tier 1v2' pairings can't double up, and so, are played separately. Alternatively, Tier 2 teams could be excluded from Provincial Championships).
In Tier 1, 4 group winners and 4 best others advance to 'Liam McCarthy Cup, Last 8-style Playoffs' - and similar to the Aussie AFL - 4 best record teams get a double chance (like in Provincial SHC Finals), while 4 others enter the KO QF Playoff Rd.
Tier 2 advances a similar 'Playoff 8', but they merge with the 'Tier 1 Non-Playoff 8', to create a 16-team strong, Tier 1.5 "AI Shield" playoff field instead (8 of the 'Shield 16', including the Tier 2 top 4, get a double chance).
Tier 1 'Playoff 8' & Tier 1.5 'Shield KO QF 8' play in the Tier 1 4x4 group phase in the following year - so while providing plenty of ebb and flo - Tier 2 promotion berths from the Shield is variable, as Tier 1 teams play to retain their status.
The Provincial Championship pairings regain relevance, as teams also strive for group points (like in the SHC), in pursuit of advancing to the AIC Playoffs, which is only possible via group phase qualification (no automatic berths for Provincial Champions, although they are expected to advance).
What do you think?" Way too over complicated… Next
GaA247 (Cork) - Posts: 58 - 07/05/2023 23:29:45
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I've always thought that the American football model and schedule is the best in the world. They have 32 teams. We have 31 + London + NY, so I'm sure it could work.
It would need
1: scrap the league entirely
2 scrap the provincials
It would mean new trophies for all counties to play for.
1: each division champion trophy
2: conference champion trophy
It's a tried and tested model that is remarkable. The template is there in place one I'm sure a lot of GAA and sports fan understand, I like how every 4 years each plays each other at least 1. I'd love a trip to (or a visit from) the dubs or Kerry etc.. at least every 4 years. To shorten the season instead of playing each team home and away in the regular season you could play team A and home this year and away when due to play them the next time.
https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/nfl-schedule/creating-the-nfl-schedule/#:~:text=The%20NFL%20uses%20a%20rotation,least%20once%20every%20four%20years.
leitrim4sam (Leitrim) - Posts: 645 - 08/05/2023 11:53:13
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Why not 3 tiers of 12,10 and 10 moving on to playoffs.
2 up, 2 down between tiers.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 08/05/2023 16:56:38
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If nobody can follow rugby's URC regular season, followed by 'Liam McCarthy Cup Last 8-style' playoffs, then fair enough - it's too confusing - otherwise, stop lying and being lazy. The US NFL regular season schedule is more difficult to understand.
URC has 16 teams, and for scheduling, 4 groups of 4 (Irish provinces in one group).
Teams play own division teams twice and all others once for an 18-game season.
My Plan is similar, except to reduce fixtures, teams avoid own division but play all others once for a 12-game season.
Liam McCarthy Cup has two Provincial Finals, with winners to AIC SFs and losers to AIC QFs (hopefully not too confusing), with two Provincial 3rd-placed teams meeting two McDonagh Cup Finalists in the AIC Preliminary QF (or QF Playoff) Rd (now, some find it confusing maybe).
In my Plan's 'Sam Maguire Cup' Playoffs, the format is identical (can't work for one and not the other).
To Wham's challenge earlier -
In the URC KO stage, the top 8 of 16 advance to the URC QFs (maybe you prefer) - BUT, recently, - only the top 7 and 10th-placed Cardiff advanced to the next EPCR European Cup (reason being, Europe wants to advance each group winner, regardless of how weak).
My Plan has group winners too - but upon reflection - perhaps a 'top 8' regardless of group (URC style) is better.
The actual AIC Sam groups of 4 groups of 4, could have used 'best records' too to limit dead rubbers - say 4 group winners (given round robins) and 4 'best record' others (so a 3rd-placed team in one group, could advance in lieu of a 2nd-placed team elsewhere). This way, the Preliminary QF Rd could have been avoided, and we go straight to 'Last-8' AIC QFs instead.
By the way, my 'Shield 16' (essentially, current Div 2 & 3 teams) is a double-size 'Liam Mc Last 8' and would be a cracker (Div 4 teams have a fair shot to get in).
Again - what do you think?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 08/05/2023 20:35:42
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Replying To leitrim4sam: "I've always thought that the American football model and schedule is the best in the world. They have 32 teams. We have 31 + London + NY, so I'm sure it could work.
It would need
1: scrap the league entirely
2 scrap the provincials
It would mean new trophies for all counties to play for.
1: each division champion trophy
2: conference champion trophy
It's a tried and tested model that is remarkable. The template is there in place one I'm sure a lot of GAA and sports fan understand, I like how every 4 years each plays each other at least 1. I'd love a trip to (or a visit from) the dubs or Kerry etc.. at least every 4 years. To shorten the season instead of playing each team home and away in the regular season you could play team A and home this year and away when due to play them the next time.
https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/nfl-schedule/creating-the-nfl-schedule/#:~:text=The%20NFL%20uses%20a%20rotation,least%20once%20every%20four%20years." When it was 16 games - it was symmetrical - each team played 4 games against teams in each position (1st to 4th) - with the 17th game - teams now play one opponent from the other conference division played two seasons prior (minor handicapping, if all divisions were of similar strength, which they are not).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 08/05/2023 20:53:21
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Replying To Whammo86: "Why not 3 tiers of 12,10 and 10 moving on to playoffs.
2 up, 2 down between tiers." Yes, 12/10/10 would work quite well - maybe teams seeded by position and Div 2 top 4 joining all Div 1 in a Sam KO 16?
Also, how about a Div 3 10-team KO for Tailteann Cup and 3rd promotion slot to Div 2 for the winner? - and a Div 2 Relegation Series (5v10, 6v9 & 7v8, 3 losers down)?
I would like to keep great Ulster Championship, but without increasing games - I'd like a 'double up' mechanism of some sort, similar to rugby's Triple Crown & Calcutta Cup under the greater Six Nations.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 08/05/2023 21:14:33
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Replying To omahant: "Yes, 12/10/10 would work quite well - maybe teams seeded by position and Div 2 top 4 joining all Div 1 in a Sam KO 16?
Also, how about a Div 3 10-team KO for Tailteann Cup and 3rd promotion slot to Div 2 for the winner? - and a Div 2 Relegation Series (5v10, 6v9 & 7v8, 3 losers down)?
I would like to keep great Ulster Championship, but without increasing games - I'd like a 'double up' mechanism of some sort, similar to rugby's Triple Crown & Calcutta Cup under the greater Six Nations." There'd be no need for the complications.
Keep it simple.
Almost all of the most engaging competitions in sport are simple formats.
Even in American sports and their not round robin format is actually done for legitimate reasons around it's hard to organise a league involving teams spread over such large distances.
In Ireland there aren't those issues so just keep the competition simple.
Have everyone know when their county teams are going to be playing most of their fixtures.
Don't pollute the season with pointless games and get people engaged in the competitions again and play them at the best time of year but allow for club activities to be facilitated.
You never really take those considerations seriously.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 09/05/2023 10:40:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "There'd be no need for the complications.
Keep it simple.
Almost all of the most engaging competitions in sport are simple formats.
Even in American sports and their not round robin format is actually done for legitimate reasons around it's hard to organise a league involving teams spread over such large distances.
In Ireland there aren't those issues so just keep the competition simple.
Have everyone know when their county teams are going to be playing most of their fixtures.
Don't pollute the season with pointless games and get people engaged in the competitions again and play them at the best time of year but allow for club activities to be facilitated.
You never really take those considerations seriously." As I said, my Plan is essentially the URC regular season, followed by the Liam McCarthy Last 8 Playoff format. What's the problem if it aligns with the real world - I get the sense that when one is personally disgruntled for an unrelated reason, one feels better by taking cheap shots - after all, they don't cost anything - I'm signing off.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 09/05/2023 17:23:02
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Replying To leitrim4sam: "I've always thought that the American football model and schedule is the best in the world. They have 32 teams. We have 31 + London + NY, so I'm sure it could work.
It would need
1: scrap the league entirely
2 scrap the provincials
It would mean new trophies for all counties to play for.
1: each division champion trophy
2: conference champion trophy
It's a tried and tested model that is remarkable. The template is there in place one I'm sure a lot of GAA and sports fan understand, I like how every 4 years each plays each other at least 1. I'd love a trip to (or a visit from) the dubs or Kerry etc.. at least every 4 years. To shorten the season instead of playing each team home and away in the regular season you could play team A and home this year and away when due to play them the next time.
https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/nfl-schedule/creating-the-nfl-schedule/#:~:text=The%20NFL%20uses%20a%20rotation,least%20once%20every%20four%20years." I also like that idea. You can have regional conferences to keep the provincial aspect and enough cross group games to have the top teams playing each other more regularly. A lot to like. The fixture making might be complicated but the standings and qualification is simple.
I suppose the basic idea is that everyone doesn't need to play everyone in a group phase to get the best teams into knock out games.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 09/05/2023 17:57:17
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I've enjoyed the provincial championships so far. There were interesting battles to make the final. Clare got go the final on merit beating Cork and Limerick. Sligo were fortunate to avoid Division 1 opposition.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 09/05/2023 18:00:08
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I really cannot wait for the provincial championships to end at least for a while. Sick of the debate around it. Absolute nonsense. And it will happen in the next couple of years I think. Long overdue.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 09/05/2023 18:08:18
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Replying To omahant: "As I said, my Plan is essentially the URC regular season, followed by the Liam McCarthy Last 8 Playoff format. What's the problem if it aligns with the real world - I get the sense that when one is personally disgruntled for an unrelated reason, one feels better by taking cheap shots - after all, they don't cost anything - I'm signing off." Sorry I got frustrated and you are right it wouldn't be as complicated in real life than it appears when written down. I'm just a bit annoyed at times that the football competitions right now don't make a lot of sense. Football means a lot to me and I think it's being let down by the structures that are in place.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 09/05/2023 20:18:34
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Replying To brianb: "I also like that idea. You can have regional conferences to keep the provincial aspect and enough cross group games to have the top teams playing each other more regularly. A lot to like. The fixture making might be complicated but the standings and qualification is simple.
I suppose the basic idea is that everyone doesn't need to play everyone in a group phase to get the best teams into knock out games." Would it not just mean a lot more games between mis matched teams. Is that something we need?
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 10/05/2023 11:46:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "Would it not just mean a lot more games between mis matched teams. Is that something we need?" It would but pretty a bit less than now. The way it works in NFL is that you play everyone in your conference. Then you play similar strength teams across other conferences and one other conference.
You'd have some mis matches but a lot of even games as well. All would be important.
It does mean that the best teams have a tougher route to the playoffs - you'll always have the best teams there with say 8 of the best 10. It all evens out over the years.
But say teams played 10 games in that structure they'd play their own level about half the time with 2 games being top v bottom.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 10/05/2023 14:23:55
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