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All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship 2023

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "I get you now, Dave. Yes, if some people are complaining about small issues in hurling then woe betide them. The game today is better than any version from any era. I read recently in an interview with Bernie Hartigan of the 1973 winning team where he asks the question: why didn't we hurl like that in our day? I think a lot of past players may feel like that. Essentially, the hurlers of today aren't doing anything differently than players in the past, just that they're doing the same things but with far more precision, strength, speed, and accuracy!

Gaelic football for me is also a great product, especially when compared to the association game or even our gridiron here. But if given a free ticket to any sporting game to watch, I'd definitely choose hurling, then rugby, and after that, ice-hockey."
'Woe betide them' are we going to be punished then for calling out the handpass? Illegal hand passing ( throwing) is a small issue now is it? What happened to your statement that there were no illegal hand passes in the game. If Limerick are that good then enforcement of the hand pass rule will not make any difference to them. Hurling is a stick game.

Sylvester (Kilkenny) - Posts: 6 - 01/08/2023 13:26:26    2498343

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Replying To midlands:  "Yes, hurling is certainly better today but I think it could be even better with a small few adjustments. The handpass/throw is still an issue, and is almost impossible for referees to deal with consistently and fairly. This is not a dig at Limerick who are already perfecting the one-handed hurley pass and will still be the best team even if the handpass is outlawed. Besides, lots of other teams are using a suspect handpass. Another aspect of the game that needs attention is the amount of unsightly "rucks" that develop in every game, with all players intent on getting the ball into the hand. This occurs regularly at the throw-in, often with up to 12-16 players involved, but could be reduced if all players other than the four midfielders had to remain inside their "45" rather than the "65". Having said that, the speed of the game today is unbelievable, again with Limerick leading the way. We are privileged to be able to watch Lynch, Hannon, O'Donovan, Gillane, Peter Casey etc operating at the top of their game and executing all the skills of hurling, even in pressurised situations."
Good post. Absolutely the powers that be in hurling should be looking at improving the game. They always should. Now and again issues arise in the game where rules need to be adapted and modified for the further enhancement of the sport. It has happened for decades. Helmets were needed as players were losing sight in eyes, horrific dental injuries and constant stoppages for bleeding head wounds. Hand passing goals were out lawed, the butchering of players by bad slaps
were again dealt with more severely. It hasnt for me decreased the aggressiveness or manliness of the sport as i witnessed some of the most cowardly slaps of the hurley over the years which is now gone for the most part thankfully.

The hand pass is an issue absolutely across the board but I wouldn't be getting rid of it as some have naively suggested. It needs attention but the great thing about the hand pass it enables the speed of the game to stay high which is a fundamental reason why hurling is as spectacular as it is. No one county is benefitting anymore than anyone else for it but it isn't a good look I agree and relatively impossible to adjudicate especially as players are often not directly in the referees eye line.

The courage, self sacrifice, commitment to the jersey, team first ethic, parishional pride, family values and national ehtos has never been higher in the GAA than right now. What these players give to the sport in an Amatuer capacity is through the roof. The hours they give willingly to the jersey and their teammates, fans and the sport is multiples of what it was back in the 70 and 80s. They all do this and still squeez in a 40 hour work week.

They've done it so they can improve their skill set, physical conditioning, mental preparedness, video analysis all to improve their ability on the ball under pressure and execute at an extremely high level. The clamour for tickets this year has been unbelievable. 35k + crowds at several munster round Robin matches. Unheard of in the past. A munster final that could easily have sold out twice. Huge crowds at the semi finals. 20k + crowds at league matches this year. People are mad to watch hurling. Mad to watch it as its never been better.

daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1071 - 01/08/2023 13:31:29    2498346

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Replying To Sylvester:  "'Woe betide them' are we going to be punished then for calling out the handpass? Illegal hand passing ( throwing) is a small issue now is it? What happened to your statement that there were no illegal hand passes in the game. If Limerick are that good then enforcement of the hand pass rule will not make any difference to them. Hurling is a stick game."
I think you are right (despite your mildly derisive tone :) ) it will not make any difference to them. I think whatever rule they implement or want to change will suit Limerick just fine, they are the best stick passers in the game, the ball is pinged from Hurley to hand in tight spaces and they do it more consistently and confidently than anyone else. You may have noticed also lots of them used the Brick flick instead of the hand pass and this has been more prevalent this year imo and i think they were prepping just in case a new rule was brought in.
Also I honestly believe that many of the hand passes that are being called as throws are in reality impossible to call, people can no more be sure that they are throws than they can that they are legitimate hand passes. You can see on the field Cian Lynch can flash a ball from ground into his hand in the blink of an eye he can also send off a handpass in the blink of an eye but the current rule of there being a "definite striking action" is probably not clear to see so i can totally understand where frustrations can come from and if the rule needs to be adjusted.

Fitzy01 (Limerick) - Posts: 373 - 01/08/2023 15:01:33    2498376

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "Google Cork V Limerick hurling replay 1983..only a,few wearing helmets, fast, frantic and furious, skill incredible for such high tempo..Cork won 1-14 to 1-12 (no 1-32 or 4-29s in those days with the exception f the 1982/3 Munster finals which were deemed one offs back then ide say)absolutely non comparable to today's game...Danny Fitzgerald of Limerick scored a point from far out and the great Michael OHehir said that it was possible because of the new "lighter" ball..that was 40 years ago..what would he call the piece of light plastic almost they play with today..how anyone thinks hurling is better skill wise now amazes me, shooting is better probably but more space and more time now, frees are easily won now..go look at that game or Kilkenny V Wexford that year and come back and say what version of hurling is better and more enjoyable.."
I have been to All Ireland Finals since the 1960s and Last years Munster and All Ireland Finals were as good a matches as I ever. Btw where are you getting these thirty point games. Who is scoring them, at least on a regular basis and against top class opposition except Limerick. In the last two finals KK have scored an average of 21 or 22 points and actually scored 15 last Sunday week. The defeated Semi Final scored an average of 21 points in the last two Semi Finals. Limerick have scored thirty points in four Finals, which might have more to do with the fact that are the best ball strikers around at the moment

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4252 - 01/08/2023 19:17:57    2498452

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "better today (ironic coming from a Limerick man after his county wins 4 in a row and thats not being smart as I support Limerick)..of course some of the players who played in the 70s and 80s (not all) will say its better now, the lads back in the 70s and 80s few wore helmets and frees and fouls were harder won, you litterally had to be flattened to get the chance of a free...look back on those games I mentioned and others, just because 30 points or higher wasnt scored doesnt mean the games were less skillful, poinnts are scored now often un marked, some of the points scored in the games in 70s and 80s were often from strikes where players were being blocked down or from scrambles...now its all almost playstation like where the ball is worked out methodically to a certain postion on the pitch and then struck...each to their own, all I will say is some of the older games stick in memory, someone asked me what was the score in last years 2022 All Ireland a few weeks back and I had to look it up...too many games now too piled one on top of the other, many forget Kilkenny beat Clare in last 2 All Ireland semi finals, there is no direct routes to follow anymore, teams losing upto two games can still potentially win the All Ireland..."
No-one is saying that hurling wasn't good back in the day. In fact, we had some great tussles. However, in explaining why hurling is now better than it ever was, I neglected to mention one important factor: more intelligent play. You claim that there is more space and time nowadays. That is true in one way, but totally inaccurate in another way. Yes, guys like Whelan, Gillane, Horgan of Cork, etc. have more space and time inside because invariably teams play with a two-man inside line. An old-style full-forward line, one like Cork's acclaimed trio of Charlie McCarthy, Ray Cummins, and Seanie O'Leary (RIP) just would not cut the ice in the modern game. There is far more intelligent use of space nowadays by teams, opening things up inside and a more than 50-50 ball in favor of their own forward.

But time and space out around the middle third is only a fraction of what it used to; a split second on the ball and a player is engulfed by 3-4-5 opponents. Years ago, in the middle of the park, a player had to beat only the man he was marking. As such, crafty stickmen like Chunkie O'Brien, Mossie Walsh of Waterford, and John Connolly of Galway all seemed to have almost a week to strike the ball. Looking back on it, the old game seems very pedestrian indeed compared with the new one. I rewatched, well for as long as I could stick it, an old recording of the 1979 AI hurling final. Junior club hurling these days is surely better fare.

In the older eras, I'd say 75% or more of the time the center-back ended up as man of the match, and particularly in AI finals; the Hendersons, Pat O'Neill, Mick Roche of Tipperary, Johnny Crowley of Cork, etc; all great hurlers and I in no way intend to take from any of them. But why was the center-back such a dominant figure then, as opposed to now? Because the system of hurling then glorified the position by lumping high ball after high ball down the throat of the best player on the opposing team, and of course he gobbled in up, and was day in day out, man of the match.

It is not like that anymore. Yes, we still have some great no. 6's, but in no way do they dominate a game like the center-backs of old. Why not? Because teams don't give away the ball so easily anymore, the play through the lines, they play over the half-back line into the sharp shooters inside, etc. Basically, they play far more intelligently.

Watching many of the hurling games of old is like watching a movie on an old black n white 14-inch TV, whereas watching the modern game is like being in a mega-plus movie theater with 4-D-effects. It was good for what it was back then, as were the players who just played the game that way as that was the way then. They didn't know anything different, which is why you can full well understand when former players like Bernie Hartigan ask: why didn't we play like the present-day hurlers? They weren't aware back then that the game could be played like it is now.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1859 - 01/08/2023 21:06:17    2498482

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "better today (ironic coming from a Limerick man after his county wins 4 in a row and thats not being smart as I support Limerick)..of course some of the players who played in the 70s and 80s (not all) will say its better now, the lads back in the 70s and 80s few wore helmets and frees and fouls were harder won, you litterally had to be flattened to get the chance of a free...look back on those games I mentioned and others, just because 30 points or higher wasnt scored doesnt mean the games were less skillful, poinnts are scored now often un marked, some of the points scored in the games in 70s and 80s were often from strikes where players were being blocked down or from scrambles...now its all almost playstation like where the ball is worked out methodically to a certain postion on the pitch and then struck...each to their own, all I will say is some of the older games stick in memory, someone asked me what was the score in last years 2022 All Ireland a few weeks back and I had to look it up...too many games now too piled one on top of the other, many forget Kilkenny beat Clare in last 2 All Ireland semi finals, there is no direct routes to follow anymore, teams losing upto two games can still potentially win the All Ireland..."
You are living in a nostalgic bubble here, I'm over 40 years going to matches and was at a lot of the great games in the 90s which were great days with great characters but if you cannot see that hurling has gone to a completely different level now then there is no point in arguing with you. The facts will show that players are fitter, stronger and more skillful than ever before players now completely dedicate themselves and sacrifice all other aspects of their lives in a manner never done before. Yes there were unreal skilful players in the past, but there was generally only a couple of amazing players in the team, now everyone from the goal keeper right through to you corner forwards have to be able to hurl with skill or they will never make a team. Yes the equipment is also far better and that does contribute to things but people don't live in caves and in the dark they constantly strive for better in all aspects.
Do you honestly want to return to a time where players train less, don't dedicate themselves as much, play with old equipment, play without tactics, drive the ball without looking as far as you can and always give the defence the upper hand. Do you also want to go back to teams and supporters potentially just having one game to support their team each year i.e. lose and your out? Do you want to st=ay stop striving to improve, please stay the same as i don't like change. The nostalgic idea of the past is beautiful and we all remember the great and special moments but the reality if you were to try and return to it is different.

Fitzy01 (Limerick) - Posts: 373 - 02/08/2023 12:31:45    2498578

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Replying To Sylvester:  "8:47 Tom Morrisey
12:00 Kyle Hayes
12:01 Barry Nash
12:03 Tom Morrisey
I could go on. Definite throws. No clear separation or striking action. Now don't get me wrong Limerick are entitled to do it if they get away with it and as another poster said Cork are much worse. The KK pass from Phelan looked like a throw.
Your post incensed me because there is obviously throwing going on and you choose not to see it. In fact quite the opposite , you state that clearly there were no throws. Laughable. If you think that any RTE pundits will call it out then show me any instance when this has happened. Donal Og Cusack selects the odd legitimate throw to rubbish claims that it's going on. Not one of them has the balls to risk their lucrative punditry to call it out. Sheedy half heartedly called out one for Waterford against his own Tipp - a blatant throw for a goal but it was laughed off by that ace spoofer McGrath. Take off your green glasses for a minute put on your thinking head and consider our great game and where it's going. The handpsss should be banned if referees cannot police it. Otherwise our game will turn into football - a quasi rugby bore fest."
Took a look at those alleged throws and took the 3 together for examples.
You are wrong in each instance ,clear separation
12:00 hayes
12:01 nash
12:03 morrisey

Knockfiarna (Limerick) - Posts: 5 - 03/08/2023 20:48:37    2498945

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Replying To Sylvester:  "8:47 Tom Morrisey
12:00 Kyle Hayes
12:01 Barry Nash
12:03 Tom Morrisey
I could go on. Definite throws. No clear separation or striking action. Now don't get me wrong Limerick are entitled to do it if they get away with it and as another poster said Cork are much worse. The KK pass from Phelan looked like a throw.
Your post incensed me because there is obviously throwing going on and you choose not to see it. In fact quite the opposite , you state that clearly there were no throws. Laughable. If you think that any RTE pundits will call it out then show me any instance when this has happened. Donal Og Cusack selects the odd legitimate throw to rubbish claims that it's going on. Not one of them has the balls to risk their lucrative punditry to call it out. Sheedy half heartedly called out one for Waterford against his own Tipp - a blatant throw for a goal but it was laughed off by that ace spoofer McGrath. Take off your green glasses for a minute put on your thinking head and consider our great game and where it's going. The handpsss should be banned if referees cannot police it. Otherwise our game will turn into football - a quasi rugby bore fest."
Hard to tell with Hayes as the camera angle shows him from the front. However, in the other 3 instances there was clear striking action each time with the palm of the hand. When it is slowed down really slow the 'clear' action becomes 'totally distinct'!

Any more examples? I really don't mind re-watching that match at all.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1859 - 04/08/2023 21:41:56    2499084

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Replying To Sylvester:  "I was with you until your comment that there was not one thrown ball. You're either blind or having a laugh. Limerick deserved to win and are a seriously good team but by god do they throw the ball to get an advantage which they did repeatedly in the final. It's even crept in to a lesser extent with Kilkenny. It's the scourge of the modern game and if it cannot be policed then it has to be banned. The rule is that there has to be a clear striking action with the hand. Rolling it to the end of your fingertips and then throwing it does not constitute a legitimate hand pass. Hurling is a stick game not handball. The throw has absolutely no skill to it and favours athleticism over skill.
Some of Limericks second half points were unbelievable and had a huge degree of skill. But the throw is not a skill.
Get down to specsavers now and don't go driving any vehicles before you get those new specs"
"The rule is that there has to be a clear striking action with the hand"

I've mentioned this on the handpass thread, Sylvester. I looked at the rulebook. Now it might be an out of date rulebook and it might be defined in the latest one, but I could find no definition of the handpass. There was no reference to "clear striking action with the hand".

All it states is rule 4.2, the ball may not be thrown. But then again, it doesn't define what a "throw" is either!

Most of the "throwy" handpasses we see now are probably not "throws" in the purest sense of the word. The players are rolling the ball down their hands and flicking it with their fingers. Not a "throw", not a clear striking action, but a grey area in between. But the current rulebook allows this grey area!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 04/08/2023 23:09:53    2499086

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Replying To Sylvester:  "'Woe betide them' are we going to be punished then for calling out the handpass? Illegal hand passing ( throwing) is a small issue now is it? What happened to your statement that there were no illegal hand passes in the game. If Limerick are that good then enforcement of the hand pass rule will not make any difference to them. Hurling is a stick game."
Of course it is a stick game and the fact that Limerick scored ever one of their thirty splendid points from all angles and distances and each and and every one of them off the stick (as they also did or surpassed in each of the last three Finals they played in). Considering the fact that they scored thirty times to seventeen against the greatest Hurling County of them all, despite missing their inspirational Captain and the best Corner Bach of the game in recent years, would clearly indicate that they will adapt to any rule change that may be brought in

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4252 - 05/08/2023 15:33:17    2499147

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https://quickshare.samsungcloud.com/cfFpBbSzyWvO
Slowed down with phone and zoom in you can see all those handpasses are fine

Knockfiarna (Limerick) - Posts: 5 - 05/08/2023 15:41:09    2499152

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "Google Cork V Limerick hurling replay 1983..only a,few wearing helmets, fast, frantic and furious, skill incredible for such high tempo..Cork won 1-14 to 1-12 (no 1-32 or 4-29s in those days with the exception f the 1982/3 Munster finals which were deemed one offs back then ide say)absolutely non comparable to today's game...Danny Fitzgerald of Limerick scored a point from far out and the great Michael OHehir said that it was possible because of the new "lighter" ball..that was 40 years ago..what would he call the piece of light plastic almost they play with today..how anyone thinks hurling is better skill wise now amazes me, shooting is better probably but more space and more time now, frees are easily won now..go look at that game or Kilkenny V Wexford that year and come back and say what version of hurling is better and more enjoyable.."
If it was so easy for Limerick to get thirty or more points in each of the last Four Finals why did their opponents not get near score the same. In fact, despite having serious injury problems in three of those Finals, they still won them by an average of 9.5 points per game.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4252 - 05/08/2023 15:41:29    2499153

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Replying To countyman2022:  "Have Clare finished celebrating the 'We beat Limerick in the Roun Robin Championship' All Ireland?"
Should you lot be more worried about beating the likes of Carlow next year. I've noticed a trend with Wexford posters having digs at Clare on here, absolutely pathetic!

Pjm111 (Clare) - Posts: 8 - 05/08/2023 18:06:19    2499163

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Of course it is a stick game and the fact that Limerick scored ever one of their thirty splendid points from all angles and distances and each and and every one of them off the stick (as they also did or surpassed in each of the last three Finals they played in). Considering the fact that they scored thirty times to seventeen against the greatest Hurling County of them all, despite missing their inspirational Captain and the best Corner Bach of the game in recent years, would clearly indicate that they will adapt to any rule change that may be brought in"
You would imagine that Limerick had one set of rules that advantage them, and that everyone else is playing under a handicap.

As said above, a lot of this debate is driven by trying to make less of what Limerick have achieved. It sounds familiar to some of us ...

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2390 - 05/08/2023 18:32:42    2499165

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Replying To Pjm111:  "Should you lot be more worried about beating the likes of Carlow next year. I've noticed a trend with Wexford posters having digs at Clare on here, absolutely pathetic!"
Are Clare people happy for Brian Lohan to continue as Manager. From a neutral point of view,Clare are losing games they should be capable of winning ( two semi finals against an ordinary Kilkenny team) and surely the blame has to be pointed in the direction of management.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2126 - 05/08/2023 19:34:36    2499172

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Replying To endgame:  "Are Clare people happy for Brian Lohan to continue as Manager. From a neutral point of view,Clare are losing games they should be capable of winning ( two semi finals against an ordinary Kilkenny team) and surely the blame has to be pointed in the direction of management."
I think most people want him to stay though people know management decisions have contributed to losses as well. There is no other standout candidate so who do you replace him with.
On another day we could have beaten both Limerick in the Munster final & Kilkenny in the semi final as they were such close games- one could argue a mixture of referee decisions, missed chances and sideline blunders as potential contributing factors. The biggest one is improving our conversion rate & if we can do that we'll be in the mix next year again.

Pjm111 (Clare) - Posts: 8 - 06/08/2023 07:17:58    2499208

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Replying To Pjm111:  "I think most people want him to stay though people know management decisions have contributed to losses as well. There is no other standout candidate so who do you replace him with.
On another day we could have beaten both Limerick in the Munster final & Kilkenny in the semi final as they were such close games- one could argue a mixture of referee decisions, missed chances and sideline blunders as potential contributing factors. The biggest one is improving our conversion rate & if we can do that we'll be in the mix next year again."
Is there any word in clare on potential absentees from the squad for 2024? Shane o donnell and Duggan for work ? Conlon retiring? Ryan Taylor ACL?

daveboy (Limerick) - Posts: 1071 - 06/08/2023 12:33:59    2499228

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Replying To endgame:  "Are Clare people happy for Brian Lohan to continue as Manager. From a neutral point of view,Clare are losing games they should be capable of winning ( two semi finals against an ordinary Kilkenny team) and surely the blame has to be pointed in the direction of management."
Wouldn't you think that Clare might approach Colm Collins (great football manager) to come aboard with the hurlers? The good manager knows his limitations. Dessie was man enough to ask Pat Gilroy for a hand. To me, that was a sign of Farrell's strength not his weakness. Lohan undoubtedly has the passion, drive, and hunger and he's instilled that in his players. However, he seems as if he could do better on the line when the game is in full swing; a shrewd, experienced head like Collins could be a great help. Small margins can make huge differences.

Perhaps after 10 years, great years let me add, at it, Colm has had enough. However, were I in any way involved with Clare hurling, I'd be knocking on Colm Collins' door.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1859 - 06/08/2023 22:27:10    2499317

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Wouldn't you think that Clare might approach Colm Collins (great football manager) to come aboard with the hurlers? The good manager knows his limitations. Dessie was man enough to ask Pat Gilroy for a hand. To me, that was a sign of Farrell's strength not his weakness. Lohan undoubtedly has the passion, drive, and hunger and he's instilled that in his players. However, he seems as if he could do better on the line when the game is in full swing; a shrewd, experienced head like Collins could be a great help. Small margins can make huge differences.

Perhaps after 10 years, great years let me add, at it, Colm has had enough. However, were I in any way involved with Clare hurling, I'd be knocking on Colm Collins' door."
I don't think I've ever ever seen Munster hurling as weak. Limerick is very dominant. But I've never seen munster as far away from 2nd and 3rd ever. It goes Limerick (gap) Kilkenny, Galway (gap) the rest. ... "Munster is extraordinarily useless right now, Jesus... Tipp/Cork right now are equal rights night to 2004 Offaly or Wexford. So poor"
Are we better off just playing Limerick v Kilkenny, Galway and Clare????? @ourgame

Throughthemidfieldhewasstormin (Wexford) - Posts: 252 - 07/08/2023 03:46:28    2499330

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Replying To Pjm111:  "I think most people want him to stay though people know management decisions have contributed to losses as well. There is no other standout candidate so who do you replace him with.
On another day we could have beaten both Limerick in the Munster final & Kilkenny in the semi final as they were such close games- one could argue a mixture of referee decisions, missed chances and sideline blunders as potential contributing factors. The biggest one is improving our conversion rate & if we can do that we'll be in the mix next year again."
Until Clare realise the main reason they didn't make it is because they were not good enough to go the distance they won't make it. Forget about all the reasons you listed you are setup for failure. Been able to beat a Limerick team in the round robin is only a small part of it, been able to go the distance against the other teams and handle their styles and challenges and keeping enough in the tank to handle the knockout games at the end is also a huge challenge. Also need to factor in the injuries and hard luck stories as part and parcel for all teams. It took us in Limerick a long long time to learn this.

Fitzy01 (Limerick) - Posts: 373 - 07/08/2023 14:30:01    2499376

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