|
Replying To legendzxix: "If only provincial winners qualified for the All-Ireland through the provincial championships, Meath and Cavan would be in the All-Ireland instead of Clare and Sligo. The most likely scenario then is that winning Division 3 will qualify for the All-Ireland. Meath, Cavan and Fermanagh currently cannot take Division 2 football for granted. 7th and 8th in Division 2 would most likely miss out on the All-Ireland.
I think Eamon Fitzmaurice has made a good suggestion in suggesting provincial championships before league. The Tailteann and Provincial spots are known. Everyone goes into the league knowing what they are playing for." I agree that is an improvement.
I'd think though that it'd be even better if championship was just separate from the league and the Provincials.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 19/05/2023 19:19:36
2479698
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "If only provincial winners qualified for the All-Ireland through the provincial championships, Meath and Cavan would be in the All-Ireland instead of Clare and Sligo. The most likely scenario then is that winning Division 3 will qualify for the All-Ireland. Meath, Cavan and Fermanagh currently cannot take Division 2 football for granted. 7th and 8th in Division 2 would most likely miss out on the All-Ireland.
I think Eamon Fitzmaurice has made a good suggestion in suggesting provincial championships before league. The Tailteann and Provincial spots are known. Everyone goes into the league knowing what they are playing for." I think makes sense. Everyone knows what they have to do from the start, and (in my opinion) the provincial championships don't lose their prestige, cos they're still important for getting top seeding, or for qualifying in the first place.
(Of course, if the GAA brought it in, they'd probably still do something stupid like have the group stage draw halfway through the league.)
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 19/05/2023 20:11:53
2479706
Link
0
|
|
it all the problem with todays world, where maoning, feeling hard by, feeling sorry for yourself and loosing out becomes a driver for change. So much so that we end up making change for the sake of change even when its well intended. In football we've had a fair crack at it in the past numbers of years and yet we're still not happy and i'm not even sure we know what we are looking for. Dead rubbers a plenty, hammering and one sided games are still common place. The best we have done is introduced a second chance saloon for the better teams.
The true (2 fingers to round robins) provincials are the last remaining true championships that we have with no half measures and certainly no backdoors. Knockout at its best. When you win you are undisputed cause you won all your games and your a true winner. No bad days at the office allowed
If the current arguments being put forward were true the provincials would have been scrapped in the 40's and 50's. Galway were lording Connacht, Cavan in Ulster, Cork and Kerry in Munster and Dublin and Meath in leinster. Kinda sounds familiar. Aaah but the beating are bigger these days i hear you say... Welll no!! The 51 Connacht final was won by 16 points, the 49 one by 15 points. 43 in leinster was won by 15 too. 90 in munster was also 15 points. These are high but you might be surprised the amount that have be won by 8+ points. That in anyone's book is a bit of a hammering
My point is that whats currently happening is nothing new. Teams come and go, managers come and go but the one thing that remains constant is the provincial championship. Therefore its not the problem :)
You never know what you have until you've lost it
ponger (Cavan) - Posts: 541 - 19/05/2023 20:30:54
2479709
Link
0
|
|
Replying To ponger: "it all the problem with todays world, where maoning, feeling hard by, feeling sorry for yourself and loosing out becomes a driver for change. So much so that we end up making change for the sake of change even when its well intended. In football we've had a fair crack at it in the past numbers of years and yet we're still not happy and i'm not even sure we know what we are looking for. Dead rubbers a plenty, hammering and one sided games are still common place. The best we have done is introduced a second chance saloon for the better teams.
The true (2 fingers to round robins) provincials are the last remaining true championships that we have with no half measures and certainly no backdoors. Knockout at its best. When you win you are undisputed cause you won all your games and your a true winner. No bad days at the office allowed
If the current arguments being put forward were true the provincials would have been scrapped in the 40's and 50's. Galway were lording Connacht, Cavan in Ulster, Cork and Kerry in Munster and Dublin and Meath in leinster. Kinda sounds familiar. Aaah but the beating are bigger these days i hear you say... Welll no!! The 51 Connacht final was won by 16 points, the 49 one by 15 points. 43 in leinster was won by 15 too. 90 in munster was also 15 points. These are high but you might be surprised the amount that have be won by 8+ points. That in anyone's book is a bit of a hammering
My point is that whats currently happening is nothing new. Teams come and go, managers come and go but the one thing that remains constant is the provincial championship. Therefore its not the problem :)
You never know what you have until you've lost it" A lot of what you've said is correct.
The big thought is that we aren't living in the 40s and 50s anymore.
People are living inundated with media and at a global level.
The GAA shouldn't ever just be a product but it does have to be pragmatic and be responsive to what's happening within the association and outside it.
The trend has been bad in terms of engagement in the Provincial championships in terms of engagement and attendance.
There's actually a good trend in terms of engagement and attendance at the league.
The demands on players is ever increasing and what they expect and demand back from the game needs to also be taken into consideration.
So I don't think it's good enough to say the provincials have been ever present therefore they are the path forward.
I think their tradition and historical prestige has helped to keep them going in spite of the issues that there are with them. The challenges for them are increasing and the signs are there that their not as resilient as you believe.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 20/05/2023 10:14:34
2479743
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "I think makes sense. Everyone knows what they have to do from the start, and (in my opinion) the provincial championships don't lose their prestige, cos they're still important for getting top seeding, or for qualifying in the first place.
(Of course, if the GAA brought it in, they'd probably still do something stupid like have the group stage draw halfway through the league.)" I think if you are putting the Provincials first then there's no need for a league followed by group stage championships.
I'd say knockout Provincials in March, April running straight into a championship of 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 would be perfect.
I'd have 16 teams provisionally qualified.
4 Provincial champions get a place in tier 1.
If a team from outside that provisional 16 wins their Province then their needs to be a Playoff between the lowest ranked teams from the previous season to determine which team is replaced.
Provincial champions are seeded.
Teams are kept apart as much as possible to avoid repeat pairings.
Say the division 1 and 2 teams from after this years league were the provisional qualifiers. There would be no playoff.
You'd have groups that look something like this:
1 Derry, Dublin, Roscommon, Tyrone, Cavan, Meath, Donegal, Cork
2 Kerry, Galway, Armagh, Louth, Mayo, Kildare, Monaghan, Fermanagh
That's a good looking championship.
1st in each group to semifinals
2nd home quarterfinal
3rd away quarterfinal
7th placed teams play for 13th provisional spot
8th placed teams are out unless they win their province the next year.
I think it's important that the main pathway to the top championship is through the second tier championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 20/05/2023 10:32:00
2479747
Link
0
|
|
Replying To ponger: "it all the problem with todays world, where maoning, feeling hard by, feeling sorry for yourself and loosing out becomes a driver for change. So much so that we end up making change for the sake of change even when its well intended. In football we've had a fair crack at it in the past numbers of years and yet we're still not happy and i'm not even sure we know what we are looking for. Dead rubbers a plenty, hammering and one sided games are still common place. The best we have done is introduced a second chance saloon for the better teams.
The true (2 fingers to round robins) provincials are the last remaining true championships that we have with no half measures and certainly no backdoors. Knockout at its best. When you win you are undisputed cause you won all your games and your a true winner. No bad days at the office allowed
If the current arguments being put forward were true the provincials would have been scrapped in the 40's and 50's. Galway were lording Connacht, Cavan in Ulster, Cork and Kerry in Munster and Dublin and Meath in leinster. Kinda sounds familiar. Aaah but the beating are bigger these days i hear you say... Welll no!! The 51 Connacht final was won by 16 points, the 49 one by 15 points. 43 in leinster was won by 15 too. 90 in munster was also 15 points. These are high but you might be surprised the amount that have be won by 8+ points. That in anyone's book is a bit of a hammering
My point is that whats currently happening is nothing new. Teams come and go, managers come and go but the one thing that remains constant is the provincial championship. Therefore its not the problem :)
You never know what you have until you've lost it" There are only 2 Provincial Championships of any use -
Munster hurling and Ulster football .
Connacht football reasonable enough while the maker uppy "Leinster" SHC needs to be reduced to 4.
As for Leinster and Munster SFCs....they are the 2 greatest arguments around for abolishing Provincials.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1438 - 20/05/2023 10:39:07
2479749
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I agree that is an improvement.
I'd think though that it'd be even better if championship was just separate from the league and the Provincials." I see where you are coming from but the players enjoy the league and it has elevated to championship qualification. A few years ago the GAA wanted experimental rules in the league. The players were against it. It was a game changer of respect for the league. For many players the league had nearly become their championship.
When the Tailteann winners qualify for the All-Ireland, it is fair to offer that reward for provincial winners at least.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 20/05/2023 13:34:05
2479764
Link
0
|
|
Many people want an open draw but it's affecting the championships. Connacht would have been a great championship this year if it was seeded on league placing. If the GAA were to only make three changes from this year:
1. One should be a weekend off after the league finals.
2. Two should be provincial draws on the morning after the league finals, based on league ranking. The top 2 in each province should be on opposite sides of their provincial draws. A lower team should have to potentially beat one of the top 2 to make the final.
3. Three should be seeds 2, 3 and 4 based on league ranking.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 20/05/2023 13:41:14
2479767
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Many people want an open draw but it's affecting the championships. Connacht would have been a great championship this year if it was seeded on league placing. If the GAA were to only make three changes from this year:
1. One should be a weekend off after the league finals.
2. Two should be provincial draws on the morning after the league finals, based on league ranking. The top 2 in each province should be on opposite sides of their provincial draws. A lower team should have to potentially beat one of the top 2 to make the final.
3. Three should be seeds 2, 3 and 4 based on league ranking." These all would improve the current system.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4238 - 20/05/2023 16:36:28
2479776
Link
0
|
|
Mayo are fully deserving winners today. It highlights a flaw though that they are Seed 3. Louth, Clare and Sligo are false Seeds 2s. Mayo was a tough first game for any provincial winner. If Mayo were Seed 2, they would be an opponent to for a Seed 1 to play in Game 3.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 20/05/2023 16:48:39
2479778
Link
0
|
|
I haven't a clue
points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 242 - 20/05/2023 16:50:04
2479779
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Mayo are fully deserving winners today. It highlights a flaw though that they are Seed 3. Louth, Clare and Sligo are false Seeds 2s. Mayo was a tough first game for any provincial winner. If Mayo were Seed 2, they would be an opponent to for a Seed 1 to play in Game 3." It's the All Ireland Football Championship. If it was as predictable as seedings based on League positions suggests we should just throw 16 teams into an algorithm, have simulated games and give Sam Maguire to who the algorithm decides who the winner is. Thankfully life and sport aren't as logical or fair or flawless as that.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 20/05/2023 19:34:58
2479813
Link
0
|
|
Replying To GreenandRed: "It's the All Ireland Football Championship. If it was as predictable as seedings based on League positions suggests we should just throw 16 teams into an algorithm, have simulated games and give Sam Maguire to who the algorithm decides who the winner is. Thankfully life and sport aren't as logical or fair or flawless as that." No doubt. Mayo's fully deserving win though does highlight a flawed seeding. For provincial titles as per the topic title to be relevant, Mayo, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan should have been Seed 2. Provincial winners then would play a natural Seed 3 in Round 1 and a natural Seed 2 in Round 3. Congratulations on today's win!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 20/05/2023 20:50:28
2479836
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "No doubt. Mayo's fully deserving win though does highlight a flawed seeding. For provincial titles as per the topic title to be relevant, Mayo, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan should have been Seed 2. Provincial winners then would play a natural Seed 3 in Round 1 and a natural Seed 2 in Round 3. Congratulations on today's win!" Hindsight analysis.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 20/05/2023 21:02:37
2479841
Link
0
|
|
Replying To GreenandRed: "Hindsight analysis." Not at all. I've written previously that seeds 2, 3 and 4 should be on league placing. Unfortunately it was Mayo who have proven my point!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 20/05/2023 22:07:02
2479855
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Not at all. I've written previously that seeds 2, 3 and 4 should be on league placing. Unfortunately it was Mayo who have proven my point!" Hindsight analysis. Any team in the round robin can beat another team. That's sport. You're obsessed with getting the 'best' seeded teams through based on last years league positions. You win, you draw, you lose, you learn and hopefully imprive for the next game. Your seeding and how it helped you get to the stage in a competition means zero if you don't live up to the seeding on the day.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 20/05/2023 22:40:23
2479860
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "No doubt. Mayo's fully deserving win though does highlight a flawed seeding. For provincial titles as per the topic title to be relevant, Mayo, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan should have been Seed 2. Provincial winners then would play a natural Seed 3 in Round 1 and a natural Seed 2 in Round 3. Congratulations on today's win!" Roscommon, who beat Mayo, should have been in the same seed as Mayo, because Mayo beat ye're boys today.
Mayo are a mighty team all right. You just can't blame Connacht and if we have more than two teams who can play good football.
festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3097 - 20/05/2023 23:23:06
2479865
Link
0
|
|
Replying To ponger: "it all the problem with todays world, where maoning, feeling hard by, feeling sorry for yourself and loosing out becomes a driver for change. So much so that we end up making change for the sake of change even when its well intended. In football we've had a fair crack at it in the past numbers of years and yet we're still not happy and i'm not even sure we know what we are looking for. Dead rubbers a plenty, hammering and one sided games are still common place. The best we have done is introduced a second chance saloon for the better teams.
The true (2 fingers to round robins) provincials are the last remaining true championships that we have with no half measures and certainly no backdoors. Knockout at its best. When you win you are undisputed cause you won all your games and your a true winner. No bad days at the office allowed
If the current arguments being put forward were true the provincials would have been scrapped in the 40's and 50's. Galway were lording Connacht, Cavan in Ulster, Cork and Kerry in Munster and Dublin and Meath in leinster. Kinda sounds familiar. Aaah but the beating are bigger these days i hear you say... Welll no!! The 51 Connacht final was won by 16 points, the 49 one by 15 points. 43 in leinster was won by 15 too. 90 in munster was also 15 points. These are high but you might be surprised the amount that have be won by 8+ points. That in anyone's book is a bit of a hammering
My point is that whats currently happening is nothing new. Teams come and go, managers come and go but the one thing that remains constant is the provincial championship. Therefore its not the problem :)
You never know what you have until you've lost it" This is a great post, and very well put. I don't agree with it, but it's very well done. My opinion isn't a million miles away from Whammo86's. One difference between the 50s and now is the almost professional dedication of the intercounty player, and the expectation on him too. A team like Dublin or Kerry now simply has to perform at top quality and win provincial championship after provincial championship. Also, how much training did those players do in the 1950s? I haven't a clue but it can't be remotely close to what it is now.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 21/05/2023 00:46:53
2479867
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I think if you are putting the Provincials first then there's no need for a league followed by group stage championships.
I'd say knockout Provincials in March, April running straight into a championship of 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 would be perfect.
I'd have 16 teams provisionally qualified.
4 Provincial champions get a place in tier 1.
If a team from outside that provisional 16 wins their Province then their needs to be a Playoff between the lowest ranked teams from the previous season to determine which team is replaced.
Provincial champions are seeded.
Teams are kept apart as much as possible to avoid repeat pairings.
Say the division 1 and 2 teams from after this years league were the provisional qualifiers. There would be no playoff.
You'd have groups that look something like this:
1 Derry, Dublin, Roscommon, Tyrone, Cavan, Meath, Donegal, Cork
2 Kerry, Galway, Armagh, Louth, Mayo, Kildare, Monaghan, Fermanagh
That's a good looking championship.
1st in each group to semifinals
2nd home quarterfinal
3rd away quarterfinal
7th placed teams play for 13th provisional spot
8th placed teams are out unless they win their province the next year.
I think it's important that the main pathway to the top championship is through the second tier championship." This looks good, but:
1. What's the significance of the 13th provisional spot?
2. How is promotion and relegation from and to the Tailteann Cup handled? Is it 2 up, two down?
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 21/05/2023 00:51:36
2479868
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "No doubt. Mayo's fully deserving win though does highlight a flawed seeding. For provincial titles as per the topic title to be relevant, Mayo, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan should have been Seed 2. Provincial winners then would play a natural Seed 3 in Round 1 and a natural Seed 2 in Round 3. Congratulations on today's win!" I think the system is probably fair. Mayo didn't have a game for six weeks yet Kerry were winning games in a provincial championship they've said isn't easy for years. It's fair to ask why Kerry were not up to speed or how a different system would of helped them!
Kerry will adapt, they always do but my view is they're not used to tough championship games in May and got a shock yesterday. It's been like this for years amongst their competitors, for this reason alone the whole system is much fairer.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 21/05/2023 08:12:16
2479873
Link
0
|