|
Replying To Whammo86: "No
You can't have 23 teams vying for 5 spots v 9 teams vying for 5 spots, particularly with Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Mayo being better than the 4 best Ulster teams on average.
If Provincial membership is being messed around with that much then the competition should be organised on a National basis.
The hurling system kind of works for them (with some issues specifically as a result of a provincial element being attached) there's no reason to think it'd work in football." "....particularly with Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Mayo being better than the 4 best Ulster teams on average...."
But surely, Leinster hurling is not equal with Munster cut throat?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 08/05/2023 21:27:12
2476900
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: ""....particularly with Dublin, Kerry, Galway, Mayo being better than the 4 best Ulster teams on average...."
But surely, Leinster hurling is not equal with Munster cut throat?" Do you actually believe that this would be a good idea or are you just arguing/defending it for the sake of it.
I can think of a lot of arguments against this but honestly they are so obvious I'd rather trust that you're intelligent enough to know that it's a silly suggestion in reality.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 09/05/2023 10:33:20
2476946
Link
4
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "It'd be bad for the game overall.
Fair competition is more engaging." because its currently so fair at the minute with the likes of kerry strolling through to being first seeds this year, and straight through to quarter finals most years
armaghfan02 (Armagh) - Posts: 39 - 09/05/2023 11:30:29
2476976
Link
0
|
|
Replying To armaghfan02: "because its currently so fair at the minute with the likes of kerry strolling through to being first seeds this year, and straight through to quarter finals most years" Yeah it's not and it's hurting engagement. It should be changed to be a fair competition. It'd be stupid to go a change it to be unfair in the opposite direction.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 09/05/2023 11:49:22
2476984
Link
4
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "What's wrong with 3 tiers of 12, 10 and 10 with the best teams moving on to playoffs and 2 up 2 down between tiers.
Why does it have to be complicated." Perfect, simple, user-friendly, fair and straight forward.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2908 - 09/05/2023 14:44:03
2477040
Link
0
|
|
Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant?
The 4 provincial winners have retained their titles. All provincial winners lost in the quarter-finals in 2010. Since then provincial winners have a good record of making the semi-finals. The group stage this year is obviously a new format. If provincial winners can go on to win their groups, they can avoid each other for as long as possible.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 14/05/2023 18:59:00
2478435
Link
0
|
|
Everyone going on about Ulster being the only dominant Provincial for years now - ah bar, a one sided draw this year Connacht is just as competitive. Could be anyone of 3 (of which they finished the top 3 teams in Div 1 this year too BTW!).
Sure even when Galway handed Armagh 6 points at the end of the QF last year they still couldn't win the game. derry took a roasting from Galway in the semi's thereafter. And no Galwegian would have said we should have won the AI - beaten by a better Kerry team.
In conclusion, Ulster overrated and Connacht just as competitive.
The_DOC (Galway) - Posts: 709 - 15/05/2023 09:02:28
2478552
Link
1
|
|
Replying To The_DOC: "Everyone going on about Ulster being the only dominant Provincial for years now - ah bar, a one sided draw this year Connacht is just as competitive. Could be anyone of 3 (of which they finished the top 3 teams in Div 1 this year too BTW!).
Sure even when Galway handed Armagh 6 points at the end of the QF last year they still couldn't win the game. derry took a roasting from Galway in the semi's thereafter. And no Galwegian would have said we should have won the AI - beaten by a better Kerry team.
In conclusion, Ulster overrated and Connacht just as competitive." Ulster has a lot of teams around the same standard but for quite some time (excluding Tyrone 2021 who sort of came from nowhere) we haven't really had a top 3 team. Dublin with a gap to Mayo and Kerry over the long term have been the real All Ireland contenders. Galway, Tyrone, Donegal have been the best of the rest at times without you ever feeling like they were actually at the level of the other 3. Monaghan, Roscommon maybe Kildare had the capacity to take a scalp from all but Dublin (and to a lesser extent Kerry).
It all kind of made Ulster exciting but just because their best teams were in that just below All Ireland challenger standard.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 15/05/2023 10:10:10
2478578
Link
4
|
|
Replying To The_DOC: "Everyone going on about Ulster being the only dominant Provincial for years now - ah bar, a one sided draw this year Connacht is just as competitive. Could be anyone of 3 (of which they finished the top 3 teams in Div 1 this year too BTW!).
Sure even when Galway handed Armagh 6 points at the end of the QF last year they still couldn't win the game. derry took a roasting from Galway in the semi's thereafter. And no Galwegian would have said we should have won the AI - beaten by a better Kerry team.
In conclusion, Ulster overrated and Connacht just as competitive." The Connacht structure is to blame there. A seeding based on league placing would have worked for Connacht, even allowing for the rotation of travelling to London and New York.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 15/05/2023 10:20:49
2478594
Link
1
|
|
Replying To The_DOC: "Everyone going on about Ulster being the only dominant Provincial for years now - ah bar, a one sided draw this year Connacht is just as competitive. Could be anyone of 3 (of which they finished the top 3 teams in Div 1 this year too BTW!).
Sure even when Galway handed Armagh 6 points at the end of the QF last year they still couldn't win the game. derry took a roasting from Galway in the semi's thereafter. And no Galwegian would have said we should have won the AI - beaten by a better Kerry team.
In conclusion, Ulster overrated and Connacht just as competitive." I agree with Connacht being actually competitive. It's true that there's three counties who played in Division 4 this year but there's also three counties who finished top of Division 1 and could beat any of the other two on their day. It just so happened that this year's draw kept them all on a collision course before the final. Ulster is competitive, true, but Whammo86 makes a great point about their overall ranking. Or I dunno, is it their mentality? Leinster used to be competitive until Dublin did their thing, and do you know what? Dublin matches aside, it still is. It's just that no-one has stepped up to match them, unlike Connacht where Galway stepped up to match Mayo and Roscommon stepped up to match them both. If another county in Leinster had risen up like Dublin there'd be fewer people complaining about how uncompetitive it is.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 15/05/2023 20:22:10
2478816
Link
0
|
|
Here's a suggestion that retains the importance of the provincial championships. Sixteen teams in the race for Sam, but:
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals
- The other eight teams go into two groups of four, with the top two in each group contesting the preliminary quarter-finals against the provincial runners-up
Pros:
- Getting to a provincial final means you miss a hectic 3-game ordeal to stay in the competition
- Winning your provincial championship advances you further again
- No third place teams falling into the knockout stages
- You could do the group stage draw (ideally you wouldn't though) before the provincial semi-finals are all finished
Cons:
- Fewer group stage games, but maybe more is less?
- Group stage can't start till the provincial semi-finals are all finished, leading to potentially big-ish gaps for provincial champions, e.g. this could work:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: group stage round 1
Week 2: group stage round 2
Week 3: group stage round 3; provincial finals
Week 4: Preliminary quarter-finals
Week 5: Quarter-finals
...but you'd need all the provincial finals taking place on the same weekend otherwise you'd have teams waiting three weeks which might not suit (or maybe it would?), or if you added an extra week between the provincial finals and the preliminary quarter-finals... well that's an extra week!
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 16/05/2023 00:45:54
2478834
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant?
The 4 provincial winners have retained their titles. All provincial winners lost in the quarter-finals in 2010. Since then provincial winners have a good record of making the semi-finals. The group stage this year is obviously a new format. If provincial winners can go on to win their groups, they can avoid each other for as long as possible." There's not really an incentive for winning a provincial title when you have to go into a group,
Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 16/05/2023 10:29:25
2478878
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Breffni1969: "There's not really an incentive for winning a provincial title when you have to go into a group," Well, there is an advantage of avoiding other provincial champions.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 16/05/2023 11:02:55
2478898
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "Here's a suggestion that retains the importance of the provincial championships. Sixteen teams in the race for Sam, but:
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals
- The other eight teams go into two groups of four, with the top two in each group contesting the preliminary quarter-finals against the provincial runners-up
Pros:
- Getting to a provincial final means you miss a hectic 3-game ordeal to stay in the competition
- Winning your provincial championship advances you further again
- No third place teams falling into the knockout stages
- You could do the group stage draw (ideally you wouldn't though) before the provincial semi-finals are all finished
Cons:
- Fewer group stage games, but maybe more is less?
- Group stage can't start till the provincial semi-finals are all finished, leading to potentially big-ish gaps for provincial champions, e.g. this could work:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: group stage round 1
Week 2: group stage round 2
Week 3: group stage round 3; provincial finals
Week 4: Preliminary quarter-finals
Week 5: Quarter-finals
...but you'd need all the provincial finals taking place on the same weekend otherwise you'd have teams waiting three weeks which might not suit (or maybe it would?), or if you added an extra week between the provincial finals and the preliminary quarter-finals... well that's an extra week!" There's a lot to like about the idea, guess it is a bit tricky though because of the gap between games for Provincial winners as you point out. Would be a tough schedule for group teams to play that much football in a short time period to accommodate a short gap for Provincial winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 16/05/2023 17:12:30
2479048
Link
2
|
|
Provincial championships could move before the league and be run on a tiered basis. Tiered round robin groups of 4 guaranteeing 3 games.
Connacht Championship - 1 group of 4.
Munster Championship -1 group of 4.
Western Conference - 1 group of 4.
Top 2 in Connacht and Munster into provincial finals.
Western Conference winner promoted to Connacht or Munster.
Ulster Championship - 1 group of 4.
Ulster Conference - 1 group of 4.
Leinster Championship - 1 group of 4.
Leinster Conference - 1 group of 4.
Eastern Conference - 1 group of 4.
Top 2 in Ulster and Leinster into provincial finals. Ulster Conference winner and Leinster Conference winners promoted. Eastern Conference winner promoted to Ulster Conference or Leinster Conference.
The Provincial winners and Tailteann winners would enter the league already qualified for the All-Ireland. 11 spots would remain for the league.
As an incentive to win Divisions, league final winners could be rewarded an extra home game in the All-Ireland or Tailteann group stage.
All other teams could get an extra home game by luck of the draw. Teams who have gone longer without an extra home game being given priority.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 16/05/2023 19:08:26
2479090
Link
0
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "Here's a suggestion that retains the importance of the provincial championships. Sixteen teams in the race for Sam, but:
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals
- The other eight teams go into two groups of four, with the top two in each group contesting the preliminary quarter-finals against the provincial runners-up
Pros:
- Getting to a provincial final means you miss a hectic 3-game ordeal to stay in the competition
- Winning your provincial championship advances you further again
- No third place teams falling into the knockout stages
- You could do the group stage draw (ideally you wouldn't though) before the provincial semi-finals are all finished
Cons:
- Fewer group stage games, but maybe more is less?
- Group stage can't start till the provincial semi-finals are all finished, leading to potentially big-ish gaps for provincial champions, e.g. this could work:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: group stage round 1
Week 2: group stage round 2
Week 3: group stage round 3; provincial finals
Week 4: Preliminary quarter-finals
Week 5: Quarter-finals
...but you'd need all the provincial finals taking place on the same weekend otherwise you'd have teams waiting three weeks which might not suit (or maybe it would?), or if you added an extra week between the provincial finals and the preliminary quarter-finals... well that's an extra week!" There's a lot to like about the idea, guess it is a bit tricky though because of the gap between games for Provincial winners as you point out. Would be a tough schedule for group teams to play that much football in a short time period to accommodate a short gap for Provincial winners."
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for round 2, joining the round 1 winners
- The other eight teams go into round 1
Simple. And then you might have this:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: break
Week 2: Round 1; provincial finals
Week 3: Round 2 (round 1 winners and provincial runners-up)
Week 4: Quarter-finals (round 2 winners vs provincial champions)
You'll notice I said "and" not "vs" for Round 2. No reason why provincial runners-up should have to be seeded, but they could anyway.
Pros:
- Absolutely no dead rubbers
- The provincial champions still have to win three games to win the championship, just like in the days of the qualifiers
- The provincial championships will avoid each other till the semi-finals
Cons:
- Your season could still be over after two games
The Tailteann Cup could still operate as it is. And probably get increased exposure cos there's more games than Sam.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 16/05/2023 21:09:51
2479112
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "Provincial championships could move before the league and be run on a tiered basis. Tiered round robin groups of 4 guaranteeing 3 games.
Connacht Championship - 1 group of 4.
Munster Championship -1 group of 4.
Western Conference - 1 group of 4.
Top 2 in Connacht and Munster into provincial finals.
Western Conference winner promoted to Connacht or Munster.
Ulster Championship - 1 group of 4.
Ulster Conference - 1 group of 4.
Leinster Championship - 1 group of 4.
Leinster Conference - 1 group of 4.
Eastern Conference - 1 group of 4.
Top 2 in Ulster and Leinster into provincial finals. Ulster Conference winner and Leinster Conference winners promoted. Eastern Conference winner promoted to Ulster Conference or Leinster Conference.
The Provincial winners and Tailteann winners would enter the league already qualified for the All-Ireland. 11 spots would remain for the league.
As an incentive to win Divisions, league final winners could be rewarded an extra home game in the All-Ireland or Tailteann group stage.
All other teams could get an extra home game by luck of the draw. Teams who have gone longer without an extra home game being given priority." I really do just think that championship qualifying needs to be based only on championship results.
You look at say Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh the strongest teams in the competition. Is there much less onus on them to qualify with them having the league route next year open to them.
I don't know, I just feel like there needs to be a more back to basics approach to this stuff again that's missing currently and just bringing up silly nonsense edge cases that kind of hurt engagement.
If you're in Tailteann you should have to perform well in Tailteann to get out of it and that's not actually the case and it'll hurt the competition in my mind.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 17/05/2023 10:26:00
2479178
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=Tacaí Liatroma: "Here's a suggestion that retains the importance of the provincial championships. Sixteen teams in the race for Sam, but:
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals
- The other eight teams go into two groups of four, with the top two in each group contesting the preliminary quarter-finals against the provincial runners-up
Pros:
- Getting to a provincial final means you miss a hectic 3-game ordeal to stay in the competition
- Winning your provincial championship advances you further again
- No third place teams falling into the knockout stages
- You could do the group stage draw (ideally you wouldn't though) before the provincial semi-finals are all finished
Cons:
- Fewer group stage games, but maybe more is less?
- Group stage can't start till the provincial semi-finals are all finished, leading to potentially big-ish gaps for provincial champions, e.g. this could work:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: group stage round 1
Week 2: group stage round 2
Week 3: group stage round 3; provincial finals
Week 4: Preliminary quarter-finals
Week 5: Quarter-finals
...but you'd need all the provincial finals taking place on the same weekend otherwise you'd have teams waiting three weeks which might not suit (or maybe it would?), or if you added an extra week between the provincial finals and the preliminary quarter-finals... well that's an extra week!" There's a lot to like about the idea, guess it is a bit tricky though because of the gap between games for Provincial winners as you point out. Would be a tough schedule for group teams to play that much football in a short time period to accommodate a short gap for Provincial winners."
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for round 2, joining the round 1 winners
- The other eight teams go into round 1
Simple. And then you might have this:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: break
Week 2: Round 1; provincial finals
Week 3: Round 2 (round 1 winners and provincial runners-up)
Week 4: Quarter-finals (round 2 winners vs provincial champions)
You'll notice I said "and" not "vs" for Round 2. No reason why provincial runners-up should have to be seeded, but they could anyway.
Pros:
- Absolutely no dead rubbers
- The provincial champions still have to win three games to win the championship, just like in the days of the qualifiers
- The provincial championships will avoid each other till the semi-finals
Cons:
- Your season could still be over after two games
The Tailteann Cup could still operate as it is. And probably get increased exposure cos there's more games than Sam."]This is kind of like last year's Championship except not all division 2 teams guaranteed a qualifier place.
This is actually a decent enough way of coming up with the All Ireland champion.
I guess my issue with it is that it's not a good format for allowing teams to develop through playing better teams through championship.
It's not a great deal for the sort of county that could win the Tailteann cup. They are in the secondary competition and the prize for that is just a qualifier place and 1 guaranteed match outside of the Provincial championship.
Is this overall system just worse for the Meaths, Clare, Tipps, Cavans in that they're the sorts of teams that can make quarterfinals in the old system. This middling team ends up playing more championship games against teams of a weaker standard without getting increased exposure to the teams above them being offered by a group stage.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 17/05/2023 17:11:39
2479290
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "[quote=Whammo86: "[quote=Tacaí Liatroma: "Here's a suggestion that retains the importance of the provincial championships. Sixteen teams in the race for Sam, but:
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for the preliminary quarter-finals
- The other eight teams go into two groups of four, with the top two in each group contesting the preliminary quarter-finals against the provincial runners-up
Pros:
- Getting to a provincial final means you miss a hectic 3-game ordeal to stay in the competition
- Winning your provincial championship advances you further again
- No third place teams falling into the knockout stages
- You could do the group stage draw (ideally you wouldn't though) before the provincial semi-finals are all finished
Cons:
- Fewer group stage games, but maybe more is less?
- Group stage can't start till the provincial semi-finals are all finished, leading to potentially big-ish gaps for provincial champions, e.g. this could work:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: group stage round 1
Week 2: group stage round 2
Week 3: group stage round 3; provincial finals
Week 4: Preliminary quarter-finals
Week 5: Quarter-finals
...but you'd need all the provincial finals taking place on the same weekend otherwise you'd have teams waiting three weeks which might not suit (or maybe it would?), or if you added an extra week between the provincial finals and the preliminary quarter-finals... well that's an extra week!" There's a lot to like about the idea, guess it is a bit tricky though because of the gap between games for Provincial winners as you point out. Would be a tough schedule for group teams to play that much football in a short time period to accommodate a short gap for Provincial winners."
- Provincial champions qualify for the All-Ireland quarter-finals
- Provincial runners-up qualify for round 2, joining the round 1 winners
- The other eight teams go into round 1
Simple. And then you might have this:
Week 0: last of the provincial semi-finals
Week 1: break
Week 2: Round 1; provincial finals
Week 3: Round 2 (round 1 winners and provincial runners-up)
Week 4: Quarter-finals (round 2 winners vs provincial champions)
You'll notice I said "and" not "vs" for Round 2. No reason why provincial runners-up should have to be seeded, but they could anyway.
Pros:
- Absolutely no dead rubbers
- The provincial champions still have to win three games to win the championship, just like in the days of the qualifiers
- The provincial championships will avoid each other till the semi-finals
Cons:
- Your season could still be over after two games
The Tailteann Cup could still operate as it is. And probably get increased exposure cos there's more games than Sam."]This is kind of like last year's Championship except not all division 2 teams guaranteed a qualifier place.
This is actually a decent enough way of coming up with the All Ireland champion.
I guess my issue with it is that it's not a good format for allowing teams to develop through playing better teams through championship.
It's not a great deal for the sort of county that could win the Tailteann cup. They are in the secondary competition and the prize for that is just a qualifier place and 1 guaranteed match outside of the Provincial championship.
Is this overall system just worse for the Meaths, Clare, Tipps, Cavans in that they're the sorts of teams that can make quarterfinals in the old system. This middling team ends up playing more championship games against teams of a weaker standard without getting increased exposure to the teams above them being offered by a group stage."]That's actually a very, very good point. A team like Meath or Clare currently that's too good for what the Tailteann Cup is intended for could see an early end to their season at the higher level after a couple of games and no top-level exposure at the lower tier.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 19/05/2023 14:22:49
2479659
Link
1
|
|
Replying To Whammo86: "I really do just think that championship qualifying needs to be based only on championship results.
You look at say Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh the strongest teams in the competition. Is there much less onus on them to qualify with them having the league route next year open to them.
I don't know, I just feel like there needs to be a more back to basics approach to this stuff again that's missing currently and just bringing up silly nonsense edge cases that kind of hurt engagement.
If you're in Tailteann you should have to perform well in Tailteann to get out of it and that's not actually the case and it'll hurt the competition in my mind." If only provincial winners qualified for the All-Ireland through the provincial championships, Meath and Cavan would be in the All-Ireland instead of Clare and Sligo. The most likely scenario then is that winning Division 3 will qualify for the All-Ireland. Meath, Cavan and Fermanagh currently cannot take Division 2 football for granted. 7th and 8th in Division 2 would most likely miss out on the All-Ireland.
I think Eamon Fitzmaurice has made a good suggestion in suggesting provincial championships before league. The Tailteann and Provincial spots are known. Everyone goes into the league knowing what they are playing for.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 19/05/2023 18:57:02
2479695
Link
1
|