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Time the Kildare county board and other Leinster counties demand home and away arrangements for the Leinster championship. Why was yesterdays game on there? Very low attendance for two games. Even the Dublin fans don't seem to come out anymore for Leinster…what is it they are heading for…14 in a row ?
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 01/05/2023 08:22:09
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Replying To yew_tree: "Time the Kildare county board and other Leinster counties demand home and away arrangements for the Leinster championship. Why was yesterdays game on there? Very low attendance for two games. Even the Dublin fans don't seem to come out anymore for Leinster…what is it they are heading for…14 in a row ?" The footballers of Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford threatened a boycott when the Munster Council wanted Kerry and Cork on opposite sides of the draw. It resulted in the current agreement where provincial finalists are seeded in the semi-finals but can draw each other.
Leinster county boards are not going to change the status quo. The players of Leinster counties are going to have to work together to bring about change. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford boycotting the McGrath Cup was their first warning shot.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 02/05/2023 16:50:57
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Teams should earn group points for their Provincial results, just like the hurlers. Until such time, the hodge podge will continue.
It's crazy in 2023 that Armagh starts in the same AIC Tier 1 groups with zero points, regardless if they win 0 to 4 rounds in Ulster - it's just nuts!
If they lose the Ulster Final, they couldn't draw Sligo, Clare or Louth - but if they had thrown the SF to Down, they stood a good chance of drawing one of them prior to the draw.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 03/05/2023 13:45:08
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Replying To legendzxix: "The footballers of Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford threatened a boycott when the Munster Council wanted Kerry and Cork on opposite sides of the draw. It resulted in the current agreement where provincial finalists are seeded in the semi-finals but can draw each other.
Leinster county boards are not going to change the status quo. The players of Leinster counties are going to have to work together to bring about change. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford boycotting the McGrath Cup was their first warning shot." If the Provencials are no longer relevant, then for the same reason the same conclusion can be reached in relation to the All-Ireland senior football championship.
In hindsight it looks as if a golden opportunity was lost when the Senior B championship was written off as a failure. From 1990 to 2000 inclusive eleven different counties won that senior title, there was almost eleven other different counties on the losing side of those finals, a few tweaks here and there would have put right any imperfections that may have been part of it. Personally, I think it would have gone from strength to strength.
At the minute there is about 10 or 12 counties below the standard of the top 20 counties and of those 20 counties there is a variety of gaps.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2908 - 03/05/2023 21:57:12
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Simple solution to how to rank provincial runners-up: for each beaten finalist, assign them the ranking of the highest ranked team in that half of the draw and then seed them based on that ranking. Assuming then that the highest ranked teams win their provincial finals, the seeding pots would look like this:
1st seeds: Galway, Kerry, Dublin, Derry
2nd seeds: Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Tyrone (4), Monaghan (6)
3rd seeds: Armagh (9, own ranking), Donegal (10), Louth (11, own ranking), Clare (12, Cork's ranking)
4th seeds: Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20), Sligo (23, own ranking)
Clare and Cork would both have a ranking of 12, but I ranked Clare higher on account of being a provincial finalist (and, for bonus points, for beating Cork). You can see therefore that as provincial finalists they've been rewarded for beating a higher ranked team. Sligo beat only New York and London to get to a Connacht final, and that's reflected in their seeding.
Imagine though that in all four provincial finals, the other team wins. Here's what you get:
1st seeds: Sligo, Clare, Louth, Armagh
2nd seeds: Galway (1, Mayo's ranking), Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Derry (4, Tyrone's ranking)
3rd seeds: Tyrone (4), Kerry (5, own ranking), Monaghan (6), Dublin (7, own ranking)
4th seeds: Donegal (10), Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20)
Again, the Galway-Mayo and Derry-Tyrone ties have been decided in favour of provincial finalists.
Pros
- An underdog who makes a provincial final will be rewarded with the appropriate seeding based on the teams on that side of the draw
- League finishing position is important
- The second seeds really will be stronger than the third and fourth seeds
Cons
- Need to wait until the provincial finals are played (which, it's generally agreed, is a good thing) before seedings are finalised
- Making a provincial final might not get the seeding reward you'd expect
- Too complicated...?
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 04/05/2023 00:03:24
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "Simple solution to how to rank provincial runners-up: for each beaten finalist, assign them the ranking of the highest ranked team in that half of the draw and then seed them based on that ranking. Assuming then that the highest ranked teams win their provincial finals, the seeding pots would look like this:
1st seeds: Galway, Kerry, Dublin, Derry
2nd seeds: Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Tyrone (4), Monaghan (6)
3rd seeds: Armagh (9, own ranking), Donegal (10), Louth (11, own ranking), Clare (12, Cork's ranking)
4th seeds: Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20), Sligo (23, own ranking)
Clare and Cork would both have a ranking of 12, but I ranked Clare higher on account of being a provincial finalist (and, for bonus points, for beating Cork). You can see therefore that as provincial finalists they've been rewarded for beating a higher ranked team. Sligo beat only New York and London to get to a Connacht final, and that's reflected in their seeding.
Imagine though that in all four provincial finals, the other team wins. Here's what you get:
1st seeds: Sligo, Clare, Louth, Armagh
2nd seeds: Galway (1, Mayo's ranking), Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Derry (4, Tyrone's ranking)
3rd seeds: Tyrone (4), Kerry (5, own ranking), Monaghan (6), Dublin (7, own ranking)
4th seeds: Donegal (10), Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20)
Again, the Galway-Mayo and Derry-Tyrone ties have been decided in favour of provincial finalists.
Pros
- An underdog who makes a provincial final will be rewarded with the appropriate seeding based on the teams on that side of the draw
- League finishing position is important
- The second seeds really will be stronger than the third and fourth seeds
Cons
- Need to wait until the provincial finals are played (which, it's generally agreed, is a good thing) before seedings are finalised
- Making a provincial final might not get the seeding reward you'd expect
- Too complicated...?" A fair shout. A provincial runner-up gaining a higher seeding if they have beaten a higher seed in the provincial championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 04/05/2023 16:31:42
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Replying To legendzxix: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "Simple solution to how to rank provincial runners-up: for each beaten finalist, assign them the ranking of the highest ranked team in that half of the draw and then seed them based on that ranking. Assuming then that the highest ranked teams win their provincial finals, the seeding pots would look like this:
1st seeds: Galway, Kerry, Dublin, Derry
2nd seeds: Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Tyrone (4), Monaghan (6)
3rd seeds: Armagh (9, own ranking), Donegal (10), Louth (11, own ranking), Clare (12, Cork's ranking)
4th seeds: Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20), Sligo (23, own ranking)
Clare and Cork would both have a ranking of 12, but I ranked Clare higher on account of being a provincial finalist (and, for bonus points, for beating Cork). You can see therefore that as provincial finalists they've been rewarded for beating a higher ranked team. Sligo beat only New York and London to get to a Connacht final, and that's reflected in their seeding.
Imagine though that in all four provincial finals, the other team wins. Here's what you get:
1st seeds: Sligo, Clare, Louth, Armagh
2nd seeds: Galway (1, Mayo's ranking), Mayo (1), Roscommon (3), Derry (4, Tyrone's ranking)
3rd seeds: Tyrone (4), Kerry (5, own ranking), Monaghan (6), Dublin (7, own ranking)
4th seeds: Donegal (10), Cork (12), Kildare (13), Westmeath (20)
Again, the Galway-Mayo and Derry-Tyrone ties have been decided in favour of provincial finalists.
Pros
- An underdog who makes a provincial final will be rewarded with the appropriate seeding based on the teams on that side of the draw
- League finishing position is important
- The second seeds really will be stronger than the third and fourth seeds
Cons
- Need to wait until the provincial finals are played (which, it's generally agreed, is a good thing) before seedings are finalised
- Making a provincial final might not get the seeding reward you'd expect
- Too complicated...?" A fair shout. A provincial runner-up gaining a higher seeding if they have beaten a higher seed in the provincial championship."
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/05/2023 09:07:15
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You'd need to have the higher seed also losing their seeding. It wouldn't really be fair for a team in another province having to drop down because another team lost.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3888 - 05/05/2023 09:07:15 2475824
4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers is still the fairer solution. Provinces have different numbers and seeding but can only provide 1 provincial champion. Just like county championships. Different numbers and formats but still 1 winner.
For the group stage then, it's got to be top 2 only advancing from the groups.
Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3 and Seed 2 v Seed 4 Neutral venues.
Game 2: R1 winners. R2 losers.
Game 3: Remaining fixtures.
(Seed 1 home to Seed 2. Seed 2 home to Seed 3. Seed 3 home to Seed 4. Seed 4 home to Seed 1.)
Group winners should be given home advantage or choice of venue for the quarter-finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 05/05/2023 13:03:51
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Replying To legendzxix: "You'd need to have the higher seed also losing their seeding. It wouldn't really be fair for a team in another province having to drop down because another team lost.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3888 - 05/05/2023 09:07:15 2475824
4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers is still the fairer solution. Provinces have different numbers and seeding but can only provide 1 provincial champion. Just like county championships. Different numbers and formats but still 1 winner.
For the group stage then, it's got to be top 2 only advancing from the groups.
Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3 and Seed 2 v Seed 4 Neutral venues.
Game 2: R1 winners. R2 losers.
Game 3: Remaining fixtures.
(Seed 1 home to Seed 2. Seed 2 home to Seed 3. Seed 3 home to Seed 4. Seed 4 home to Seed 1.)
Group winners should be given home advantage or choice of venue for the quarter-finals." I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15
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I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 05/05/2023 15:01:13
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Replying To legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think it's more important to have your main competition right.
In hurling you'd have said that their league was great but they improved their championship so much and it's less important that their league isn't as good now. It serves its purpose and the best games are in the Summer with the real action.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/05/2023 17:02:12
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Replying To legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Agree I wouldn't change the football league,the hurling league needs to go back the top teams in the league,the league in hurling is a joke
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 779 - 05/05/2023 17:07:58
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Replying To legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The change would be for a few reasons:
It makes sense for entry to the championship to be based on performance in the championship.
You can have a higher bar for making the knockout rounds (6 instead of 12 say) but still have more games be meaningful, every position counts to qualify for the following season's All Ireland.
Teams ease into the season more, teams needed more meaningful matches but are things too full on now. Conor Glass was talking recently about the load this season being very tough. Have we over corrected here?
Season ends that touch later with 3 knockout rounds instead of 4. Could be playing for 2 extra weeks in June. Again we'd be taking games out of February and March and moving more into May and June.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 05/05/2023 17:21:14
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Why have two group phases - just combine for a 10-12 match season leading to the AIC Series.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 05/05/2023 18:04:14
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Replying To legendzxix: "You'd need to have the higher seed also losing their seeding. It wouldn't really be fair for a team in another province having to drop down because another team lost.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3888 - 05/05/2023 09:07:15 2475824
4 provincial winners, 1 Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers is still the fairer solution. Provinces have different numbers and seeding but can only provide 1 provincial champion. Just like county championships. Different numbers and formats but still 1 winner.
For the group stage then, it's got to be top 2 only advancing from the groups.
Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3 and Seed 2 v Seed 4 Neutral venues.
Game 2: R1 winners. R2 losers.
Game 3: Remaining fixtures.
(Seed 1 home to Seed 2. Seed 2 home to Seed 3. Seed 3 home to Seed 4. Seed 4 home to Seed 1.)
Group winners should be given home advantage or choice of venue for the quarter-finals." Seed difference of 1 = higher seed at home
Seed difference of 2 = neutral venue
Seed difference of 3 = lower seed at home
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 05/05/2023 20:41:29
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It would mean alot to Louth if they finally win a Leinster title after a long 66 years.
Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 785 - 05/05/2023 20:53:32
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Replying To cityman73: " Replying To legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Agree I wouldn't change the football league,the hurling league needs to go back the top teams in the league,the league in hurling is a joke"
The hurling league probably should change back.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/05/2023 10:39:54
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To cityman73: "[quote=legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Agree I wouldn't change the football league,the hurling league needs to go back the top teams in the league,the league in hurling is a joke"
The hurling league probably should change back."]For years people have been asking for something like a Top 16 and a Tier 2. The GAA have delivered. In typical GAA style they have gone about it in a convoluted way allowing 3 qualify from the group. These are amendments that can be made over the next few years.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/05/2023 11:43:58
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Replying To legendzxix: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=cityman73: "[quote=legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Agree I wouldn't change the football league,the hurling league needs to go back the top teams in the league,the league in hurling is a joke"
The hurling league probably should change back."]For years people have been asking for something like a Top 16 and a Tier 2. The GAA have delivered. In typical GAA style they have gone about it in a convoluted way allowing 3 qualify from the group. These are amendments that can be made over the next few years."]The thing is that the league being such a good competition and also having to keep Provincial championships then limits what can be done with the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 06/05/2023 14:23:41
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To legendzxix: "[quote=Whammo86: "[quote=cityman73: "[quote=legendzxix: "I actually think the league should be shortened to 2 groups of 4 in each division and be more of a developmental competition like hurling.
Championship should be 2 groups of 8 with Provincial winners, 12 teams from the previous season's championship including the Tailteann winners.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3889 - 05/05/2023 13:56:15 2475919
The Allianz Football League is such a great competition. If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Agree I wouldn't change the football league,the hurling league needs to go back the top teams in the league,the league in hurling is a joke"
The hurling league probably should change back."]For years people have been asking for something like a Top 16 and a Tier 2. The GAA have delivered. In typical GAA style they have gone about it in a convoluted way allowing 3 qualify from the group. These are amendments that can be made over the next few years."]The thing is that the league being such a good competition and also having to keep Provincial championships then limits what can be done with the championship."]Streamline & combine?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 06/05/2023 14:59:12
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