National Forum

Hurling's middle class

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Currently there are nine "Tier 1" hurling counties (Limerick, Cork, Tipperary, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway, Wexford, and Dublin). These are stronger than the rest and can expect to be relatively competitive with each other in the League and Championship. Obviously, there's a big difference between, say, Limerick and Dublin at the moment, but I think this is a fair categorisation. Below these are the roughly nine "Tier 2" counties (Antrim, Laois, Westmeath, Carlow, Offaly, Kerry, Meath, and more recently, Kildare and Down). These are teams that are regularly participating in Division 1, Division 2A, the Joe McDonagh Cup, or the Leinster Championship.

I went back through the League and Championship results since 2018 (the year in which the Joe McDonagh Cup and provincial round robins were instituted) and looked at how these Tier 2 counties had performed against Tier 2 opponents. I made a note of any matches where a Tier 2 county either won, drew, or came within 6 points (i.e. two scores) of a Tier 1 opponent. I found that since 2018, Antrim (9 matches), Laois (4 matches), Westmeath (4 matches), Offaly (2 matches), and Carlow (2 matches) have all done this at least once. The best results were Antrim beating Clare and drawing with Wexford in the 2021, Laois beating Dublin in 2019, Offaly beating Dublin in 2018, Westmeath drawing with Wexford in 2022, Carlow drawing with Galway in 2019.

From this it can be argued that Antrim, Laois, and Westmeath are the strongest of the Tier 2 counties and have managed to be fairly competitive over the last five years or so. However, each of the Tier 2 counties that have spent time in Division 1 or in the Leinster Championship over the past five years have managed at least two competitive performances against Tier 1 opposition. Obviously, this has to be qualified by the fact they've all shipped plenty of heavy defeats during the same period, but nevertheless there are positive signs.

Surely, the goal of the GAA should surely be to strengthen these counties so they can form the "middle class" that is often said to be missing from hurling. However, it is clear, from a lot of the talk surrounding the league format this year, that most people aren't factoring in the Tier 2 counties. These counties need regular competition against Tier 1 counties in order to improve, but the criticism of the league has centred almost entirely around the lack of incentive the current format provides for Tier 1 counties. This is also a fair criticism, as Westmeath were always going to finish bottom of 1A this year so there was no real risk in the other five teams not performing well. However, I don't know how much relegation ever really meant in the hurling league anyways. Personally, I think the main issue with the current league format is that the two groups are too small. If there were seven or eight teams in each group, then three or four Tier 2 counties would be able to get a balance of games against Tier 1 and Tier 2 counties.

The question of how to make the league more enticing to Tier 1 counties is a separate issue, of course. I'd be sympathetic to the idea of detaching the provincial championships from the All-Ireland series altogether and replacing them with expanded groups from the League but I'm not sure how this would go down with the Munster Council.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 01/04/2023 10:29:17    2468086

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I would add Antrim to tier one as last team, making it 10 teams, they would and haven beaten tier two teams like Offaly and Laois and lost a few league games by not a massive margins (example Kilkenny 1-18 Antrim 0-15) tier 2 is a different standard altogether...although Offaly beat Laois in JMCD on Saturday I still think Laois are a bit ahead of Offaly Standard and player wise in more positions..

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1037 - 11/04/2023 22:00:08    2470393

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I would add Antrim to tier one as last team, making it 10 teams, they would and haven beaten tier two teams like Offaly and Laois and lost a few league games by not a massive margins (example Kilkenny 1-18 Antrim 0-15) tier 2 is a different standard altogether...although Offaly beat Laois in JMCD on Saturday I still think Laois are a bit ahead of Offaly Standard and player wise in more positions..

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1037 - 11/04/2023 22:00:22    2470394

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If the GAA were serious about promoting hurling in your tier 2 counties they would be paying a few fulltime professional hurling coaches to go around the clubs and schools in each of those counties to raise underage playing numbers and coaching standards. This would cost a fraction of what PUC cost, and would benefit the GAA as a whole, and hurling in particular, far more than any new stadium could.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15669 - 12/04/2023 08:28:55    2470401

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The old Division 1B on metric would have 3 of the top 9 and the next best 3 competing against each other. A fair level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 12/04/2023 11:13:12    2470458

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I would add Antrim to tier one as last team, making it 10 teams, they would and haven beaten tier two teams like Offaly and Laois and lost a few league games by not a massive margins (example Kilkenny 1-18 Antrim 0-15) tier 2 is a different standard altogether...although Offaly beat Laois in JMCD on Saturday I still think Laois are a bit ahead of Offaly Standard and player wise in more positions.."
Antrim are getting back to a good place, although underage looks weak. Another season in Division One after some reasonable showings against Dublin and Kilkenny. Might have snatched a win against ourselves.

Antrim v Dublin in Belfast going to be a real test for Dublin i feel.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3506 - 12/04/2023 11:24:42    2470466

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Antrim are getting back to a good place, although underage looks weak. Another season in Division One after some reasonable showings against Dublin and Kilkenny. Might have snatched a win against ourselves.

Antrim v Dublin in Belfast going to be a real test for Dublin i feel."
the problem too is all these games now the novelty is gone off them, and this time next year no one will remember the game you mention above...I dont like these outside teams in Leinster at all, Leinster was poor and Kilkenny have destroyed it over last 20 years...something had to be done, but turning Leinster into the "Lidl" of the championship where bargain games could be got might have done alot for the counties outside playing in Leinster but has it improved Leinster counties hurling????far from it, its worse with Offaly and Laois not playing in it under the current format...Munster might be stronger but it should be pro rata or even every three years the outside counties switch province...Leinster is more like a shopping list now, so many tiers to it I gave up looking a long time ago...all I know is Kilkenny and Galway will be probably vying for a title, and as I say, has that done anything at all for Leinster, not that I see....

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1037 - 12/04/2023 16:09:03    2470588

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The GAA have not 1 iota of interest in promoting hurling in anywhere outside the traditional 8-10 counties.
Everything is set up for the status quo to remain in place and for the game to never prosper. Even counties like Laois, Offaly, etc won't be able to prosper because they'll just be yo-yo counties from Joe Mc to Liam McCarthy.
Even on the topic of the league the best Anthony Daly and his crew could come up with regarding a league structure was an 8-team division 1 - retain the status quo at all costs.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 12/04/2023 17:27:39    2470622

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "The GAA have not 1 iota of interest in promoting hurling in anywhere outside the traditional 8-10 counties.
Everything is set up for the status quo to remain in place and for the game to never prosper. Even counties like Laois, Offaly, etc won't be able to prosper because they'll just be yo-yo counties from Joe Mc to Liam McCarthy.
Even on the topic of the league the best Anthony Daly and his crew could come up with regarding a league structure was an 8-team division 1 - retain the status quo at all costs."
Very true re Dalos crew and the suggestion of 8 teams. They did say there would be relegation from the group but the main point was keeping most of the top teams in the same group. That does nothing for the tier 2 teams and I think the old 6 team groups was better than their suggestion for everyone.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 708 - 12/04/2023 18:29:30    2470643

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To Báireoir (to avoid a "reply", with your good but lengthy post repeating).

Working with your 'Tier 1 Nine & Tier 2 Nine' to provide a spread of mixed quality games, but keeping the strongest and weakest apart:

- NHL 18-team Div 1, with 3 'ranked'/hierarchical groups A, B & C (split C1/C2), of 7, 6 & 5 (split 3/2) teams, respectively.

- Each team plays a 12-match season, as follows:
A v A&B;
B v A&C;
C1 v B, C2 & twice C1; and
C2 v B, C1 & thrice C2.

- No NHL KO, as group winners are Champs.

- One Up / One Down between groups.

- Provincial Championships (Munster 5 & Leinster 6) reverts to KO format, with 'most' results doubling up for NHL as well ('most', as BvB can't double up, and play separately).

- NHL top 6 (Group A, less relegated team) join Provincial Champs in AIC KO QFs, with those two Champs likely getting byes to SFs (for earning two berths).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 12/04/2023 21:03:14    2470682

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "the problem too is all these games now the novelty is gone off them, and this time next year no one will remember the game you mention above...I dont like these outside teams in Leinster at all, Leinster was poor and Kilkenny have destroyed it over last 20 years...something had to be done, but turning Leinster into the "Lidl" of the championship where bargain games could be got might have done alot for the counties outside playing in Leinster but has it improved Leinster counties hurling????far from it, its worse with Offaly and Laois not playing in it under the current format...Munster might be stronger but it should be pro rata or even every three years the outside counties switch province...Leinster is more like a shopping list now, so many tiers to it I gave up looking a long time ago...all I know is Kilkenny and Galway will be probably vying for a title, and as I say, has that done anything at all for Leinster, not that I see...."
Not Kilkenny fault up gaa to chage

Gaaforlife2023 (Longford) - Posts: 693 - 12/04/2023 21:35:01    2470684

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Johnny Kelly's Plan (Tier 2 in the post, what he calls the "squeezed middle") might be worth a try:

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/in-detail-johnny-kellys-radical-plan-to-save-hurlings-squeezed-middle-42403703.html

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 12/04/2023 21:35:36    2470685

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Laois are underachieving I feel.

Club hurling is decent in Laois, as good as Wexford.

Not too long ago they beat Dublin in championship and gave Galway a few scares.

I think Antrim, Laois and Westmeath have the potential but it's not easy to get into that top 9, constant glass ceilings put in place.

Then you have the real Tier 2 of Offaly, Kerry, Kildare and Carlow who can all beat eachother on any given day and I would have Down and Meath below these 4 counties.

Past hurler (None) - Posts: 921 - 13/04/2023 09:20:24    2470698

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "The GAA have not 1 iota of interest in promoting hurling in anywhere outside the traditional 8-10 counties.
Everything is set up for the status quo to remain in place and for the game to never prosper. Even counties like Laois, Offaly, etc won't be able to prosper because they'll just be yo-yo counties from Joe Mc to Liam McCarthy.
Even on the topic of the league the best Anthony Daly and his crew could come up with regarding a league structure was an 8-team division 1 - retain the status quo at all costs."
I agree with you but when you say the GAA - who are you talking about? Croke Park GAA or the individual top tier counties? All of these counties look after their own interests and within the counties clubs look after their own interests. Democracy is a great thing but rarely brings about real change as vested interests prevent change from happening. Has any team in Munster got anything to fear by allowing Kerry into the Munster championship and saying they would play all their games against them in Killarney? Leinster is no different although the gap between the 4th lower teams is not perhaps as big. Lip service to development of lower tier is what the top counties give and that won't change however what gets to me is that, they do not make up the majority of the votes but seem to be able to veto change and that is because too often what we see at congress is that Football counties defer to the top tier and visa versa when it comes to Football issues. Which also means that the County Boards of these football counties couldn't care less about Hurling. Everyone looks out for their own.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1959 - 13/04/2023 09:27:39    2470699

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Well take the example of Kildare. They are putting huge work in to hurling, and making massive strides.
Yet, the best the GAA can offer them is a place in Division 1 and a place in the Leinster Championship where in all likelihood they will be cannon fodder bar a freak result.
This glass ceiling has been hit by Laois, Westmeath, Offaly, Kerry in recent times and the undertone from players in these counties is "what is the point, that gap cannot be bridged".

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1336 - 13/04/2023 10:45:38    2470733

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "Well take the example of Kildare. They are putting huge work in to hurling, and making massive strides.
Yet, the best the GAA can offer them is a place in Division 1 and a place in the Leinster Championship where in all likelihood they will be cannon fodder bar a freak result.
This glass ceiling has been hit by Laois, Westmeath, Offaly, Kerry in recent times and the undertone from players in these counties is "what is the point, that gap cannot be bridged"."
If they have that attitude, which I don't believe they do btw, they will never make the breakthrough. You can be pretty sure that Offaly players didn't think that way before they made their breakthrough.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15669 - 13/04/2023 11:13:47    2470754

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Replying To Past hurler:  "Laois are underachieving I feel.

Club hurling is decent in Laois, as good as Wexford.

Not too long ago they beat Dublin in championship and gave Galway a few scares.

I think Antrim, Laois and Westmeath have the potential but it's not easy to get into that top 9, constant glass ceilings put in place.

Then you have the real Tier 2 of Offaly, Kerry, Kildare and Carlow who can all beat eachother on any given day and I would have Down and Meath below these 4 counties."
For sure. Laois have won an AI hurling title. Their clubs have won 2 Leinster club titles and reached 11 more. Offaly clubs have won 13 from 27 appearances,which is far more than Wexford clubs have achieved. There is absolutely no reason, given proper promotion of the game in schools and non hurling clubs, why Offaly and Laois shouldn't be more competitive again.
Antrim likewise. The game needs to be grown in Belfast though.
Kildare and Meath have huge hurling playing numbers. Probably lack of enough quality coaching, and dare I say it hurling tradition within families there, is holding them back.
Westmeath like Antrim probably need to get more hurling played in schools, especially in urban areas, hard though that will be to achieve.
Carlow and Kerry likewise have to overcome a small playing population some way or another, starting I suppose in schools and clubs in non hurling areas.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15669 - 13/04/2023 11:23:25    2470760

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "I would add Antrim to tier one as last team, making it 10 teams, they would and haven beaten tier two teams like Offaly and Laois and lost a few league games by not a massive margins (example Kilkenny 1-18 Antrim 0-15) tier 2 is a different standard altogether...although Offaly beat Laois in JMCD on Saturday I still think Laois are a bit ahead of Offaly Standard and player wise in more positions.."
Antrim have certainly been the most competitive weaker county of late but they're still very much a second tier county. This is the first year in a good while that they've been in Division 1 and the Liam McCarthy Cup. I wouldn't be considering them top tier until they can maintain that for a few years and take some scalps from the teams above them.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 13/04/2023 13:20:00    2470805

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The old Division 1B on metric would have 3 of the top 9 and the next best 3 competing against each other. A fair level."
I'm surprise to see you're from Kerry and you think that. It would be much more beneficial for Kerry hurling if they were in an expanded Division 1, where they'd get 4-5 games against top teams and 2-3 against teams of their own level.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 13/04/2023 13:21:31    2470807

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Replying To omahant:  "To Báireoir (to avoid a "reply", with your good but lengthy post repeating).

Working with your 'Tier 1 Nine & Tier 2 Nine' to provide a spread of mixed quality games, but keeping the strongest and weakest apart:

- NHL 18-team Div 1, with 3 'ranked'/hierarchical groups A, B & C (split C1/C2), of 7, 6 & 5 (split 3/2) teams, respectively.

- Each team plays a 12-match season, as follows:
A v A&B;
B v A&C;
C1 v B, C2 & twice C1; and
C2 v B, C1 & thrice C2.

- No NHL KO, as group winners are Champs.

- One Up / One Down between groups.

- Provincial Championships (Munster 5 & Leinster 6) reverts to KO format, with 'most' results doubling up for NHL as well ('most', as BvB can't double up, and play separately).

- NHL top 6 (Group A, less relegated team) join Provincial Champs in AIC KO QFs, with those two Champs likely getting byes to SFs (for earning two berths)."
That's an interesting idea for a format but it seems a bit overly complicated, especially straight away.

How about playing the provincial championships early in the season in place of the Walsh Cup and Munster SHL. There's currently 8 teams in the Walsh Cup (incl. Galway and Antrim), 5 in the Kehoe Cup (incl. Down) and 6 in the Munster SHL. Surely it would work to have a two tier Leinster competition and single tier Munster competition played in January/February, based on the format currently used for the Walsh Cup/Kehoe Cup and Munster SHL. The Munster SHL already attracts healthy crowds despite being a relatively unimportant competition so I think placing the provincial championships here would be perfectly fine.

This could be followed by the National League with a 16-team Division 1 split into two groups with the top team in each group advancing to the league final and the bottom team in each group either being relegated or going into a relegation play-off. There'd be plenty of time to play this in February-April, as it would have the same number of fixtures as the football league.

For the All-Ireland championship you could create four seedings based on the League, with the 1-2 teams promoted from Division 2 replacing the 1-2 relegated from Division 1. Draw the 16 teams into 4 groups of 4, with each team playing each other either once or twice. The top two in each group advance into quarter finals. You could also place the bottom two in each group into a shield competition (the Joe McDonagh Cup?) to ensure their seasons continued. This would give the top tier and second teir teams the same number of matches and a balance of games against first and second tier opposition. This could be played from April/May-July.

This format would serve all of the counties, in my opinion, and it would also fit into the current split season, at least with a few tweaks.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 13/04/2023 13:40:46    2470812

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