National Forum

Get Rid Of Hurling League And New Hurling Championship Proposal

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Replying To Viking66:  "The issue isn't staleness. Yours seems to be a complicated answer to a question noone is asking."
I'm less sure about hurling but in football players want to play more meaningful matches and linking league and championship much more makes a lot of sense.

His competition isn't that complicated all either.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 26/03/2023 09:36:47    2466605

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'm less sure about hurling but in football players want to play more meaningful matches and linking league and championship much more makes a lot of sense.

His competition isn't that complicated all either."
Provincial round robins were rejected in football. Using the league ranking was a reasonable evolution in place of the qualifiers.
The major problem in hurling is in Division 1. It is a self created problem. Returning to divisions on metric and promoting/relegating 2 is a fair solution.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 26/03/2023 12:33:39    2466640

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial round robins were rejected in football. Using the league ranking was a reasonable evolution in place of the qualifiers.
The major problem in hurling is in Division 1. It is a self created problem. Returning to divisions on metric and promoting/relegating 2 is a fair solution."
Why do you keep bringing up provincial groups in football in answer to my posts. They'd be a terrible idea for football.

All I'm saying is that in football teams now have a minimum of 11 competitive fixtures which matter towards the All Ireland championship.

Munster hurling teams are down to 4 minimum games which matter for the All Ireland.

There's room for hurling teams to play more games that count.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 26/03/2023 14:12:47    2466660

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I'm less sure about hurling but in football players want to play more meaningful matches and linking league and championship much more makes a lot of sense.

His competition isn't that complicated all either."
No young lads grow up in Antrim dreaming of winning the Ulster Hurling Championship. Most of the lads I met when I was up there wanted to win club championships, Antrim, Ulster and AIs. Its easy for you to say to downgrade the Provincial Championships but they still mean an awful lot to Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Tipperary, Cork, Kilkenny, Wexford, Dublin, even Offaly fans and players.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12961 - 26/03/2023 14:15:08    2466663

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Replying To Viking66:  "No young lads grow up in Antrim dreaming of winning the Ulster Hurling Championship. Most of the lads I met when I was up there wanted to win club championships, Antrim, Ulster and AIs. Its easy for you to say to downgrade the Provincial Championships but they still mean an awful lot to Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Tipperary, Cork, Kilkenny, Wexford, Dublin, even Offaly fans and players."
When did I say to downgrade them?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 26/03/2023 14:26:42    2466665

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why do you keep bringing up provincial groups in football in answer to my posts. They'd be a terrible idea for football.

All I'm saying is that in football teams now have a minimum of 11 competitive fixtures which matter towards the All Ireland championship.

Munster hurling teams are down to 4 minimum games which matter for the All Ireland.

There's room for hurling teams to play more games that count."
You obviously know that hurling has a tiered championship. The league is a separate competition. The league can stand on it's own two feet, as should provincial championships if the All-Ireland hurling needs a separate group stage for 12 in the years to come.
The strength of the league is the higher your division, the more competitive games you get ahead of the championship. 1A managers took that too far though. They were shooting themselves in the foot.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 26/03/2023 14:30:49    2466667

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Well, if the intention is McDonagh teams getting an opportunity to play top teams in the league, divisions of 7 with 2 up and down would be the solution there. The disadvantage of being promoted as runner-up would be the team not playing in the final round in the following year."
Yes, with a Top 14 there and 2 more up at year end, that's 16 teams getting a top tier crack. One of the main points that Johnny Kelly was making in Saturday's Indo, is that those 2 might yoyo up/down and would not get consistent Div 1 exposure. He addressed this by allowing the 'McDonagh Cup top 4' pay Div 1 every year - kinda like a playoff where the same teams could stay up, or get displaced if others earn it.
I'm not saying I think Kelly's idea is good - in fact there could be some ugly pairings - e.g. Limerick v Kildare.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2766 - 26/03/2023 16:07:11    2466725

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, with a Top 14 there and 2 more up at year end, that's 16 teams getting a top tier crack. One of the main points that Johnny Kelly was making in Saturday's Indo, is that those 2 might yoyo up/down and would not get consistent Div 1 exposure. He addressed this by allowing the 'McDonagh Cup top 4' pay Div 1 every year - kinda like a playoff where the same teams could stay up, or get displaced if others earn it.
I'm not saying I think Kelly's idea is good - in fact there could be some ugly pairings - e.g. Limerick v Kildare."
In divisions of 6 on metric, if Kildare and Offaly were both promoted to Division 1B, they would take on Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Antrim. That would be a fair mix. The Wexford guys are spot on on their call for promoting/relegating 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 26/03/2023 16:40:15    2466747

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When hurling had divisions of 8, Division 2 did not provide competitive hurling for the top teams missing out on Division 1. Divisions of 6 fixed the problem. 1A teams do not have to go full tilt.1B is proven to be a competitive level. There was no need to fight tooth and nail to avoid it."
But I thought the dread of relegation did make the old Top 6 too stressful prior to Championship. I agree that '3 of Top 9' in Div 1B is better than just 2, but while they play 2 games against each other, they can kick back somewhat for 3 other games/prepare for Championship while the Top 6 go full throttle.

What's wrong with the lack of relegation jeopardy that the two mixed groups have provided the top teams - in the English Premier League, the Man Citys, Utds, Liverpools etc do not feel relegation threatened.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2766 - 26/03/2023 16:43:20    2466749

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Replying To omahant:  "But I thought the dread of relegation did make the old Top 6 too stressful prior to Championship. I agree that '3 of Top 9' in Div 1B is better than just 2, but while they play 2 games against each other, they can kick back somewhat for 3 other games/prepare for Championship while the Top 6 go full throttle.

What's wrong with the lack of relegation jeopardy that the two mixed groups have provided the top teams - in the English Premier League, the Man Citys, Utds, Liverpools etc do not feel relegation threatened."
The current Division 1 hurling format would be great in the championship where they want to win. In the league, it is just creating challenge games.
A few years back hurling had promotion relegation playoffs between lower division winners and the bottom team from the division above. Hurling has to allow more fluid promotion and relegation in the league and get on with it. The hurling lower tier championships promote 1 team. That is ok for championship. In the league their needs to be more movement of teams.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 26/03/2023 17:03:58    2466770

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Replying To Whammo86:  "When did I say to downgrade them?"
If you amalgate the League with the Provincial Championships it's downgrading both.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12961 - 26/03/2023 17:43:33    2466799

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Replying To Viking66:  "If you amalgate the League with the Provincial Championships it's downgrading both."
No it's not, it's just a league phase to the championship.

It'd be a good level of intensity too with 6 teams making it through.

Provincials could be back to straight knockout.

The Leinster championship could actually be a real Leinster championship again without Galway, Antrim entering because they can be in the All Ireland without being in a Province.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 26/03/2023 17:53:48    2466808

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Replying To Viking66:  "If you amalgate the League with the Provincial Championships it's downgrading both."
No its not. How is it?
I wouldnt amalgamate league with provincial championships but have it as stand alone competition with a proper reward for winners like having the all ireland championship as a group stage and if winners of provincial championships havent qualified for knock out stages of all ireland competition the provincial winners get an extra chance to win all ireland championship entering in at another stage

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3571 - 26/03/2023 18:17:09    2466823

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Replying To Whammo86:  "No it's not, it's just a league phase to the championship.

It'd be a good level of intensity too with 6 teams making it through.

Provincials could be back to straight knockout.

The Leinster championship could actually be a real Leinster championship again without Galway, Antrim entering because they can be in the All Ireland without being in a Province."
Galway and Antrim should stilll compete in Leinster even with changes to all ireland. them competing in Leinster hasnt lessened the Leinster championship and its far more of a real championship with them competing then them on the outside

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3571 - 26/03/2023 18:18:17    2466825

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Replying To Whammo86:  "No it's not, it's just a league phase to the championship.

It'd be a good level of intensity too with 6 teams making it through.

Provincials could be back to straight knockout.

The Leinster championship could actually be a real Leinster championship again without Galway, Antrim entering because they can be in the All Ireland without being in a Province."
Many of us get too involved in format discussions. The league is the only problem to solve.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8109 - 26/03/2023 18:18:35    2466826

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Replying To Whammo86:  "No it's not, it's just a league phase to the championship.

It'd be a good level of intensity too with 6 teams making it through.

Provincials could be back to straight knockout.

The Leinster championship could actually be a real Leinster championship again without Galway, Antrim entering because they can be in the All Ireland without being in a Province."
You were both in the AI series without being in Leinster for decades already Whammo.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12961 - 26/03/2023 18:25:34    2466831

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Replying To KillingFields:  "No its not. How is it?
I wouldnt amalgamate league with provincial championships but have it as stand alone competition with a proper reward for winners like having the all ireland championship as a group stage and if winners of provincial championships havent qualified for knock out stages of all ireland competition the provincial winners get an extra chance to win all ireland championship entering in at another stage"
If its a stand alone competition it can't affect another competition. If it does then its not stand alone.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12961 - 26/03/2023 18:52:16    2466852

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Replying To Viking66:  "You were both in the AI series without being in Leinster for decades already Whammo."
That didn't work because teams needed more matches.

something I don't get about the GAA is why there's such a need to restrict the number of matches in the championship.

Just get the best teams playing one another and come up with playoffs and relegation appropriately to keep it interesting. Bang you've got a competition players want to play in and people want to attend.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4314 - 26/03/2023 18:55:57    2466853

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Replying To Viking66:  "If its a stand alone competition it can't affect another competition. If it does then its not stand alone."
Then just leave it stand alone. but give a reward of some kind for winning it to make teams still want to win it. keep it played in season and not run off at start of season.

It could stll be stand alone and not directly only potentially affect the all ireland. it would be very different to the current system and by comparing it to now my proposal makes it pretty much stand alone

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3571 - 26/03/2023 19:00:59    2466857

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Many of us get too involved in format discussions. The league is the only problem to solve."
Maybe similar to the approach taken by about 99% of other team sports across the world, the league is the solution!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1450 - 26/03/2023 19:09:18    2466861

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