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The NHL is very uncompetitive compared to the NFL. There is nothing at stake for the bigger counties. The NHL should follow a similar format to the NFL with 2 promotions and 2 relegations in each league to add fluidity between divisions and increase exposure for counties.

It could look as follows (Based on 2023 rankings)

Division 1
Tipperary (Final)
Cork (Final)
Limerick
Kilkenny
Galway
Waterford (Relegated)
Clare (Relegated)

Division 2
Dublin (Final and promoted)
Antrim (Final and promoted)
Wexford
Laois
Westmeath
Kildare (Relegated)
Offaly (Relegated)

Division 3
Kerry (Final and promoted)
Carlow (Final and promoted)
Down
Derry
Meath
Wicklow (Relegated)
Donegal (Relegated)

Division 4
Tyrone (Final and promoted)
London (Final and promoted)
Sligo
Roscommon
Armagh
Monaghan (Relegated)
Mayo (Relegated)

Division 5
Louth (Final and promoted)
Fermanagh (Final and promoted)
Cavan
Leitrim
Longford
Lancashire
Warwickshire

GaA247 (Cork) - Posts: 58 - 22/03/2023 16:05:01    2465847

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5 divisions of 7 is a reasonable suggestion. With the championship having groups of 6, there is merit in the league offering a format that allows promotion and relegation of 2 teams between divisions and a variety of opponents.
The current groups of 6 in Division 1 could be retained if the bottom teams were relegated:

Division 1 - 12 teams in 2 groups of 6, bottom teams relegated.
Division 2 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 3 - 8 teams. 2 promoted. 2 relegated.
Division 4 - 7 teams. 2 promoted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7698 - 22/03/2023 16:30:44    2465863

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I know you are only using an example but it is ironic that you would use Waterford as a relegation prop as they won the competition last year and well up there this year. Wexford a division 2 team ? However it would sort itself out. How about though starting out with the big three in the 2 division and let them work their way up. After all they have dominated for most of a century and should have no problem getting up there.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2632 - 22/03/2023 17:05:16    2465879

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Replying To GaA247:  "The NHL is very uncompetitive compared to the NFL. There is nothing at stake for the bigger counties. The NHL should follow a similar format to the NFL with 2 promotions and 2 relegations in each league to add fluidity between divisions and increase exposure for counties.

It could look as follows (Based on 2023 rankings)

Division 1
Tipperary (Final)
Cork (Final)
Limerick
Kilkenny
Galway
Waterford (Relegated)
Clare (Relegated)

Division 2
Dublin (Final and promoted)
Antrim (Final and promoted)
Wexford
Laois
Westmeath
Kildare (Relegated)
Offaly (Relegated)

Division 3
Kerry (Final and promoted)
Carlow (Final and promoted)
Down
Derry
Meath
Wicklow (Relegated)
Donegal (Relegated)

Division 4
Tyrone (Final and promoted)
London (Final and promoted)
Sligo
Roscommon
Armagh
Monaghan (Relegated)
Mayo (Relegated)

Division 5
Louth (Final and promoted)
Fermanagh (Final and promoted)
Cavan
Leitrim
Longford
Lancashire
Warwickshire"
That's pretty much what I was proposing only I'd have 6 teams in div1 and div2. And no finals.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11207 - 22/03/2023 18:04:39    2465898

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's pretty much what I was proposing only I'd have 6 teams in div1 and div2. And no finals."
Without finals, 5th could play 2nd in a promotion/relegation playoff.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7698 - 23/03/2023 12:50:44    2465987

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Replying To Canuck:  "I know you are only using an example but it is ironic that you would use Waterford as a relegation prop as they won the competition last year and well up there this year. Wexford a division 2 team ? However it would sort itself out. How about though starting out with the big three in the 2 division and let them work their way up. After all they have dominated for most of a century and should have no problem getting up there."
They finshed on less points than Galway and the other 4 - I dont think the world is out to get Waterford! Most of us would like to see ye win if our own counties dont!

The trouble I have with these suggestions is that you have a load of people complaining that the so called weaker teams will never get better if they arent playing the best teams. I've made the argument numerous times that a county will actually get better if they are allowed to get competitive games for a period first. Look how Laois fared when they came back up to Liam Mc for the first year or two. It was only once Leinster went back to 6 teams that they deteriorated again as they primed themselves for one big game a year. The Joe Mc has been a great success in my view but so many people think that it would be better for the likes of Kerry to be in the Liam Mc every year when realistically theyre not always ready for it.

I like the League structure suggested but you have more people who think the likes of Westmeath need to be up there with the best but it does absolutely nothing for them in the long run. That might sound like snobbery but its not going to prime them for cship like some would suggest. A lot of GAA people turn their noses up at Intermediate and Junior competitions. when they should be promoted. In my own experience at club level it was a great boost to get promoted but the interest wears off quickly if youre getting beat out the gate every day

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 23/03/2023 13:50:08    2466004

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For the record I'd have no problem if Tipp had been relegated last year as a team that loses 5/5 doesnt deserve to stay in the same grade the following year

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 23/03/2023 14:06:42    2466016

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Replying To tiobraid:  "They finshed on less points than Galway and the other 4 - I dont think the world is out to get Waterford! Most of us would like to see ye win if our own counties dont!

The trouble I have with these suggestions is that you have a load of people complaining that the so called weaker teams will never get better if they arent playing the best teams. I've made the argument numerous times that a county will actually get better if they are allowed to get competitive games for a period first. Look how Laois fared when they came back up to Liam Mc for the first year or two. It was only once Leinster went back to 6 teams that they deteriorated again as they primed themselves for one big game a year. The Joe Mc has been a great success in my view but so many people think that it would be better for the likes of Kerry to be in the Liam Mc every year when realistically theyre not always ready for it.

I like the League structure suggested but you have more people who think the likes of Westmeath need to be up there with the best but it does absolutely nothing for them in the long run. That might sound like snobbery but its not going to prime them for cship like some would suggest. A lot of GAA people turn their noses up at Intermediate and Junior competitions. when they should be promoted. In my own experience at club level it was a great boost to get promoted but the interest wears off quickly if youre getting beat out the gate every day"
I think the likes of Westmeath could improve by playing 'mid ranked' teams but should 'temporarily' avoid playing the strongest opposition.
How about this:
- Div 1 with 12 teams, split into 3 'ranked' Groups A, B & C of 5, 4 & 3 teams, respectively.
- Group B teams 'straddle' Groups A & C, and in lieu of a round robin, play an 8-match schedule against Group A & C teams instead.
- Group A teams play a 'single' round robin, and in addition to 4 matches against Group B teams, also complete an 8-match schedule.
- Group C teams play a 'double' round robin, and in addition to 4 matches against Group B teams, also complete an 8-match schedule.
- No KO matches (groups won by top team).
- One up/one down between groups.
- Option = To control match count, perhaps most 'intra-Provincial' league pairings could be scheduled for the later rounds and 'double up' as Provincial Championship group (M5 & L6) results as well.
- Div 2 with 12 teams, could be/but not necessarily split into 3 similar 'ranked' Groups D, E & F of 5, 4 & 3 teams, respectively, as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2474 - 23/03/2023 14:55:19    2466031

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Replying To omahant:  "I think the likes of Westmeath could improve by playing 'mid ranked' teams but should 'temporarily' avoid playing the strongest opposition.
How about this:
- Div 1 with 12 teams, split into 3 'ranked' Groups A, B & C of 5, 4 & 3 teams, respectively.
- Group B teams 'straddle' Groups A & C, and in lieu of a round robin, play an 8-match schedule against Group A & C teams instead.
- Group A teams play a 'single' round robin, and in addition to 4 matches against Group B teams, also complete an 8-match schedule.
- Group C teams play a 'double' round robin, and in addition to 4 matches against Group B teams, also complete an 8-match schedule.
- No KO matches (groups won by top team).
- One up/one down between groups.
- Option = To control match count, perhaps most 'intra-Provincial' league pairings could be scheduled for the later rounds and 'double up' as Provincial Championship group (M5 & L6) results as well.
- Div 2 with 12 teams, could be/but not necessarily split into 3 similar 'ranked' Groups D, E & F of 5, 4 & 3 teams, respectively, as well."
Usual complicated stuff from you Omahant!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11207 - 23/03/2023 15:07:52    2466038

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Replying To Viking66:  "Usual complicated stuff from you Omahant!!!"
What's wrong with Westmeath getting matches to get them to the next level while avoiding those beyond their depth? - How would you give them those games?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2474 - 23/03/2023 18:23:09    2466100

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Replying To Viking66:  "Usual complicated stuff from you Omahant!!!"
Thought it was just me! No need to over-complicate things. A similiar set up to the football is best. If you're good enough to be in the top tier thats where you play and none of this 1A 1B nonsense. Div1 and Div2 and like the football have some incentive for cship built in at some level.
I'd rather promote what could be an excellent league than get rid of it or de-value it.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 24/03/2023 09:05:37    2466132

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Replying To omahant:  "What's wrong with Westmeath getting matches to get them to the next level while avoiding those beyond their depth? - How would you give them those games?"
I propose Div1 6 teams. Div2 6 teams. And 8 teams per division thereafter. 2 up and 2 down between divisions with no finals. Next year div2 would be Wexford, Clare, Dublin, Antrim, Westmeath or Laois, Kildare or Offaly. If Westmeath beat Laois then next year they would play Clare, Wexford, Dublin, Antrim and Kildare or Offaly, so some likely defeats but also some competitive games, with no dead rubbers likely with 2 up and 2 down.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11207 - 24/03/2023 09:57:02    2466144

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I agree with the original posters All-Ireland structure. The current league format with quarter-finals would suit the All-Ireland championship. 11 teams is probably fair enough for the All-Ireland championship at the moment. If it get to a stage where expanding 12 is fair progression, it would be the time to consider it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7698 - 24/03/2023 10:34:43    2466161

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Replying To Viking66:  "I propose Div1 6 teams. Div2 6 teams. And 8 teams per division thereafter. 2 up and 2 down between divisions with no finals. Next year div2 would be Wexford, Clare, Dublin, Antrim, Westmeath or Laois, Kildare or Offaly. If Westmeath beat Laois then next year they would play Clare, Wexford, Dublin, Antrim and Kildare or Offaly, so some likely defeats but also some competitive games, with no dead rubbers likely with 2 up and 2 down."
There is a format where 1A and 1B can be on metric. The first 2 league games can be cross division 1A teams playing 1B teams. The remaining 5 games then within everyone's division. All other divisions can have 8 teams where possible. I agree with promoting 2 and relegating 2 between all divisions.

For the cross division games:
1A teams would play a 1B team from the top 3 previous league ranking and a 1B team from the bottom 3 previous league ranking. If the 2 cross division games are played first, counties know the results they have to achieve then within their regular division phase. It will give all counties 7 league games. Finals are debatable within the league. With the split season, they might have to make way.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7698 - 24/03/2023 10:45:05    2466167

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Without finals, 5th could play 2nd in a promotion/relegation playoff."
I would argue that 2 teams should get automatic promotion in each division as the divisions right now are very static there is no fluidity. More promotion and relegation spots will generate excitement aswell

GaA247 (Cork) - Posts: 58 - 24/03/2023 13:15:31    2466245

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Replying To Viking66:  "I propose Div1 6 teams. Div2 6 teams. And 8 teams per division thereafter. 2 up and 2 down between divisions with no finals. Next year div2 would be Wexford, Clare, Dublin, Antrim, Westmeath or Laois, Kildare or Offaly. If Westmeath beat Laois then next year they would play Clare, Wexford, Dublin, Antrim and Kildare or Offaly, so some likely defeats but also some competitive games, with no dead rubbers likely with 2 up and 2 down."
If it's a 6-team Div 2 (not the 8 listed), then 2 of Antrim, Westmeath and Laois would likely go down.
For me, that structure is an exciting one - BUT, the top teams were too stressed with that Div 1 a few years ago, leading to relief.

Maybe the best solution is a 12-team league with the Prov Championship pairings doubling up for both competitions.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2474 - 24/03/2023 13:22:14    2466256

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There is a format where 1A and 1B can be on metric. The first 2 league games can be cross division 1A teams playing 1B teams. The remaining 5 games then within everyone's division. All other divisions can have 8 teams where possible. I agree with promoting 2 and relegating 2 between all divisions.

For the cross division games:
1A teams would play a 1B team from the top 3 previous league ranking and a 1B team from the bottom 3 previous league ranking. If the 2 cross division games are played first, counties know the results they have to achieve then within their regular division phase. It will give all counties 7 league games. Finals are debatable within the league. With the split season, they might have to make way."
Yeah, a crossover was implemented a few years back, but wasn't popular. Yesterday, I gave a 3-tier 5/4/3 crossover split that was too unconventional (went down like a lead balloon, I suspect).

In 2024, the Champions League will have an unconventional 'Swiss System' with teams playing 8 matches in a 36-team table and with no groups.

In the NHL, a 12-team round robin is too long, and maybe, 6-team groups are too short - so the middle ground to get 7/8 matches could be a crossover - could the NHL try something similar?

How about:
3 equally-ranked, mixed-quality groups of 4, with all teams playing all 8 crossover games - so each team plays 2 of 3 from top of 1A & top of 1B, as well as 2 of 3 from bottom of 1A & bottom of 1B, leading to one 12-team, 8-match table (similar to 2024 UCL)?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2474 - 24/03/2023 13:44:35    2466262

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Replying To GaA247:  "I would argue that 2 teams should get automatic promotion in each division as the divisions right now are very static there is no fluidity. More promotion and relegation spots will generate excitement aswell"
Definitely. There's too much about finals and relegation playoffs. They take an extra weekend or two and teams that don't deserve to go up or go down over the course of the season often end up going up or down as a result of one match. What's the point playing all the previous matches? Last year a team with no points relegated a team with 4 points from the Wexford Senior Hurling Championship and stayed up themselves. Absolute joke.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11207 - 24/03/2023 13:46:15    2466264

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Replying To omahant:  "Yeah, a crossover was implemented a few years back, but wasn't popular. Yesterday, I gave a 3-tier 5/4/3 crossover split that was too unconventional (went down like a lead balloon, I suspect).

In 2024, the Champions League will have an unconventional 'Swiss System' with teams playing 8 matches in a 36-team table and with no groups.

In the NHL, a 12-team round robin is too long, and maybe, 6-team groups are too short - so the middle ground to get 7/8 matches could be a crossover - could the NHL try something similar?

How about:
3 equally-ranked, mixed-quality groups of 4, with all teams playing all 8 crossover games - so each team plays 2 of 3 from top of 1A & top of 1B, as well as 2 of 3 from bottom of 1A & bottom of 1B, leading to one 12-team, 8-match table (similar to 2024 UCL)?"
Did you review your responses?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2474 - 29/03/2023 19:48:54    2467688

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I see there are new proposals for the structure of the hurling league in 2025, with finishing positions in 2024 being used to place teams in any new structure. See some details here:

[url=]linkhttps://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2023/0908/1404146-gaa-considering-changes-to-hurling-league-format/[url=]link

On the face of it, the third option (7 teams per division) looks to be the best to me although it does add two rounds of games to the league and there is the disadvantage of having odd numbers of teams.

Proposal 1 is just a reversion to the previous 1A and 1B system with presumably 1 up and 1 down between the divisions. But there's a dearth of detail, particularly about both proposals 2 and 3.

Does anyone have any more information?

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 94 - 09/09/2023 14:46:44    2503590

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