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Hurling Teams Out Of Their Depth?

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm not rubbing it in. Availing of the opportunity and timing to highlight that whoever is bottom of their league group should be relegated. Otherwise there should be a return to 1A for 1 to 6 and 1B for 7 to 12.
Antrim and Westmeath are in the Leinster championship. Laois were only relegated from Leinster last year. Antrim, Westmeath and Laois being in the same division as the lower 3 of the top 9 is a fair level of competition.
If the 2A format was applied to 1B of Clare, Dublin, Wexford, Antrim, Laois and Westmeath;
1B semi-final: Dublin v Wexford
1B final: Clare v Dublin/Wexford, winner promoted. 6th in 1A relegated."
It's fairer than the current system but looking at the results there's still a gap between Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Laois, Antrim, Westmeath. Having 6 teams in the top 2 divisions is definitely the way to go though. Why do you think there should be semifinals and finals though? What purpose do they serve?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 22/03/2023 15:16:58    2465817

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I'm not rubbing it in. Availing of the opportunity and timing to highlight that whoever is bottom of their league group should be relegated. Otherwise there should be a return to 1A for 1 to 6 and 1B for 7 to 12.
Antrim and Westmeath are in the Leinster championship. Laois were only relegated from Leinster last year. Antrim, Westmeath and Laois being in the same division as the lower 3 of the top 9 is a fair level of competition.
If the 2A format was applied to 1B of Clare, Dublin, Wexford, Antrim, Laois and Westmeath;
1B semi-final: Dublin v Wexford
1B final: Clare v Dublin/Wexford, winner promoted. 6th in 1A relegated."
It's fairer than the current system but looking at the results there's still a gap between Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Laois, Antrim, Westmeath. Having 6 teams in the top 2 divisions is definitely the way to go though. Why do you think there should be semifinals and finals though? What purpose do they serve? And why call the 2nd division 1b? Why not division 2 like it was back in the day?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 22/03/2023 15:17:51    2465818

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "The only impact of a 1A and 1B style championship would be the top 6 to get stronger and everybody else to fall further off the pace."
I used to think that and said so on this before it was reorganised. But I've changed my mind since. Sure in 2017 and 2018 the AI champions came out of 1b.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 22/03/2023 15:21:36    2465821

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The "likes" of Dublin who have beaten all of the top teams at some stage in league or championship or both in last ten years?"
I admire Dublin Hurling greatly but what have they to show for beating those teams? A leinster title and league title 10 years ago and they've been no where near reaching those heights since unfortunately. You have to beat those teams when it counts.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2308 - 22/03/2023 15:44:17    2465833

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Replying To Bon:  "I admire Dublin Hurling greatly but what have they to show for beating those teams? A leinster title and league title 10 years ago and they've been no where near reaching those heights since unfortunately. You have to beat those teams when it counts."
Had meant to mention Wexford as well.

Dublin and Wexford have won as much as any one of the other top 8 - and there is a clear distinction - other than those who have won the All Ireland and more than one provincial which are the Cats, Limerick, Tipp, Galway and Clare in that period.

Obviously not contenders, but in different league from the others who people blandly rank Dublin and Wexford when proposing a new lower grade. .

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3508 - 22/03/2023 15:51:04    2465838

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Replying To Bon:  "I admire Dublin Hurling greatly but what have they to show for beating those teams? A leinster title and league title 10 years ago and they've been no where near reaching those heights since unfortunately. You have to beat those teams when it counts."
Waterford haven't won an AI since God was a baby. We haven't this millennium. Cork are heading that way too. Clare have only won one this millennium, as have Galway. And none of those are likely to win one this year either tbh. Someone is really going to have to play far above themselves to beat Limerick.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 22/03/2023 16:00:45    2465843

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Replying To Viking66:  "Waterford haven't won an AI since God was a baby. We haven't this millennium. Cork are heading that way too. Clare have only won one this millennium, as have Galway. And none of those are likely to win one this year either tbh. Someone is really going to have to play far above themselves to beat Limerick."
And Limerick will have to drop their standard too if someone beats them.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 22/03/2023 16:03:52    2465846

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's fairer than the current system but looking at the results there's still a gap between Clare, Wexford, Dublin and Laois, Antrim, Westmeath. Having 6 teams in the top 2 divisions is definitely the way to go though. Why do you think there should be semifinals and finals though? What purpose do they serve? And why call the 2nd division 1b? Why not division 2 like it was back in the day?"
The semi-finals and finals are debatable. For the discussion on 1B for 7 to 12, I'm applying consistency with the current 2A format.
If 1B is brought back and a Galway or Limerick don't get promoted but win the All-Ireland, the All-Ireland winner could be given a wildcard promotion to 1A, with 5th in 1A relegated. If 6th in 1A went on to win the All-Ireland, they could be given a wildcard exemption from relegation with 5th relegated instead. I think there is an eagerness for the All-Ireland champions to be in the top division.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 22/03/2023 16:09:20    2465853

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Replying To legendzxix:  "In Division 1B (7 to 12) Westmeath, Laois and Antrim would have 2 games against each other and 3 games against the top 9. They can learn their lessons from the 3 tough games but also target 2 winnable games. Antrim wouldn't be far off challenging the top 3 in 1B."
That was the format between 2012 and 2019 and it worked well enough. But I don't think its ambitious enough. The top tier needs to be made larger not smaller in my opinion, that's the only way we'll see the expansion of hurling. Have two groups of 8 rather than 6 so that the Joe McDonagh-level teams can all have a crack at 4 or 5 of the strongest counties every year.

Báireoir (Dublin) - Posts: 80 - 22/03/2023 17:20:36    2465883

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The "likes" of Dublin who have beaten all of the top teams at some stage in league or championship or both in last ten years?"
What exactly have they done since 2013?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1617 - 22/03/2023 17:21:53    2465884

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Had meant to mention Wexford as well.

Dublin and Wexford have won as much as any one of the other top 8 - and there is a clear distinction - other than those who have won the All Ireland and more than one provincial which are the Cats, Limerick, Tipp, Galway and Clare in that period.

Obviously not contenders, but in different league from the others who people blandly rank Dublin and Wexford when proposing a new lower grade. ."
I agree and it's not just pride talking.

Dublin and wexford will beat antrim, westmeath, Laois, offaly 9 times out of 10

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3565 - 22/03/2023 17:57:49    2465895

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The semi-finals and finals are debatable. For the discussion on 1B for 7 to 12, I'm applying consistency with the current 2A format.
If 1B is brought back and a Galway or Limerick don't get promoted but win the All-Ireland, the All-Ireland winner could be given a wildcard promotion to 1A, with 5th in 1A relegated. If 6th in 1A went on to win the All-Ireland, they could be given a wildcard exemption from relegation with 5th relegated instead. I think there is an eagerness for the All-Ireland champions to be in the top division."
Why a wildcard? The League should be a totally seperate competition. Over history several teams have won AIs from Division 2, including ourselves. And whoever finishes top after the games are played should go up. It's ridiculous that a team could top div2 (1b) or div3 (2a) by as many as 6 points and still not get promoted. That, apart from the time taken up, is why I believe League finals should be scrapped.
In the interests of money the League now has a knockout championship element to it, and the Championship a League element. This is another reason why the League is diminished these days, its just a similar but secondary competition these days, instead of being a distinct one.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 22/03/2023 18:00:17    2465896

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There is a big gap between the top 8 hurling counties, and the rest including, Westmeath, Laois, and Antrim. Westmeath play Laois on Saturday in a relegation match, with the losers dropping back to Div2A.
All those counties are making huge efforts to improve their standards, which is a good thing.

Whoever is promoted from Kildare, Offaly or Kerry will face the same problems in competing at the higher level, and will face a relegation game in2024. Kildare have made great strides in developing hurling, and while Offaly and Kerry are trying to improve their hurling teams, the current system does not help the smaller counties. It can be hard to motivate the teams outside the top tier, if they are facing heavy defeats in Div1A.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 22/03/2023 19:28:39    2465915

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why a wildcard? The League should be a totally seperate competition. Over history several teams have won AIs from Division 2, including ourselves. And whoever finishes top after the games are played should go up. It's ridiculous that a team could top div2 (1b) or div3 (2a) by as many as 6 points and still not get promoted. That, apart from the time taken up, is why I believe League finals should be scrapped.
In the interests of money the League now has a knockout championship element to it, and the Championship a League element. This is another reason why the League is diminished these days, its just a similar but secondary competition these days, instead of being a distinct one."
The wildcard is a left field suggestion and open to being shotdown. If a team is remaining in 1B and winning All-Irelands, 1A is possibly left in the shade.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 23/03/2023 11:48:12    2465961

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Replying To Báireoir:  "That was the format between 2012 and 2019 and it worked well enough. But I don't think its ambitious enough. The top tier needs to be made larger not smaller in my opinion, that's the only way we'll see the expansion of hurling. Have two groups of 8 rather than 6 so that the Joe McDonagh-level teams can all have a crack at 4 or 5 of the strongest counties every year."
Beaten all of the other top eight other than Clare at least once in league and beaten several of them in championship including Galway and Limerick.

As I've said, Dublin are clearly not in the front rank, but are well ahead - as are Wexford - of the others who people think they should be in same league as. That is not a slight on Laois, Antrim or Westmeath by the way or whoever might be promoted but they are well ahead of some of the teams people are proposing for a new league. Current one is imperfect but it is best option.

Teams who make the top division do so on merit, and if they survive then they do so on merit not because of some positive discrimination.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3508 - 23/03/2023 12:10:42    2465968

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The wildcard is a left field suggestion and open to being shotdown. If a team is remaining in 1B and winning All-Irelands, 1A is possibly left in the shade."
It would be up to the teams in 1a to up their game come championship

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 23/03/2023 12:58:01    2465992

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "Beaten all of the other top eight other than Clare at least once in league and beaten several of them in championship including Galway and Limerick.

As I've said, Dublin are clearly not in the front rank, but are well ahead - as are Wexford - of the others who people think they should be in same league as. That is not a slight on Laois, Antrim or Westmeath by the way or whoever might be promoted but they are well ahead of some of the teams people are proposing for a new league. Current one is imperfect but it is best option.

Teams who make the top division do so on merit, and if they survive then they do so on merit not because of some positive discrimination."
Are you really trying to use Dublin beating Limerick in 2015 to back up your argument?

If you want to start throwing up results Laois beat Dublin in 2019. It's also not too long ago they lost to Offaly. Westmeath drew with Wexford in the championship last year. So your argument if them being well ahead of Laois, Antrim etc just isn't true.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1617 - 23/03/2023 13:32:32    2466001

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Replying To oneoff:  "Are you really trying to use Dublin beating Limerick in 2015 to back up your argument?

If you want to start throwing up results Laois beat Dublin in 2019. It's also not too long ago they lost to Offaly. Westmeath drew with Wexford in the championship last year. So your argument if them being well ahead of Laois, Antrim etc just isn't true."
They were 2 shock results it has to be said. Against Kilkenny in Championship hurling over 70 minutes we have played 6 times since 2017. We have won 3, drawn 2, and lost once, in 2018 in Nowlan Park by just one point. By your reckoning we would be ahead of Kilkenny then?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 23/03/2023 14:04:03    2466014

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Replying To oneoff:  "Are you really trying to use Dublin beating Limerick in 2015 to back up your argument?

If you want to start throwing up results Laois beat Dublin in 2019. It's also not too long ago they lost to Offaly. Westmeath drew with Wexford in the championship last year. So your argument if them being well ahead of Laois, Antrim etc just isn't true."
We haven't lost a Senior championship game to Laois since the 1980s. And I can't remember losing one to Westmeath. It's a long time since we lost one to Offaly either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15672 - 23/03/2023 14:06:38    2466015

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Replying To Viking66:  "We haven't lost a Senior championship game to Laois since the 1980s. And I can't remember losing one to Westmeath. It's a long time since we lost one to Offaly either."
Have only lost to Offaly in the championship once this century, and that was in 2012, before their decline really began.

Shock defeat to Laois in the 1985 Leinster semi-final remains their only win over us in the championship since 1941.

And while we have lost to Westmeath in the championship, you have to go back even further, to 1940.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 23/03/2023 15:18:40    2466045

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