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All Ireland SFC And Tailteann Cup 2023 Clarity

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Replying To Bawner:  "My understanding is that Munster winner and Connacht runner up in one group, Connacht winner and Munster runner up in another, and the same with Ulster and Leinster.

If all 4 provincial winners get to semis, then it will be Munster Champs v Connacht Champs and Leinster v Ulster.

Looks like preliminary quarter finals and quarter finals are open draw, but repeats of provincial finals and repeats of matches played at "group" stage will be avoided where possible. So say Kerry/Sligo/ Tyrone/Kildare in group A, they can't meet each other again until semi final.

We already have Mayo as a third seed, and the losers of Galway/Roscommon will be a third seed. Assuming Dublin and Kerry make the provincial finals then I think 2 of Tyrone/Monaghan/Derry are the other third seeds. That makes for some tasty matches."
Huge confusion has surrounded this question as to whether, for example, the Munster Winners would be in same group as Connacht runners-up. It now seems that NO is the answer.
You seem to have made a typo in saying that the losers of Galway/Roscommon will be a third seed.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 15/04/2023 14:54:11    2471072

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "I hope this clears up how Westmeath qualifying for Leinster won't let Meath back into the race for Sam. Below are the top 16 teams ranked by league positions in the way we all know by now like the back of our hands. In brackets afterwards are the qualification methods for each county for the Sam Maguire main event assuming Westmeath don't make the Leinster final, and assuming they do.

Key:
CH: Provincial champions
RU: Provincial runners-up
Qx: After the 2022 Tailteann Cup winners and the seven/eight 2023 provincial finalists are placed in the competition, this team is the xth team overall to be added. For example, Mayo are 10th to be added to the Sam Maguire after the eight provincial champions and 2022 Tailteann Cup winners are added, so they're marked as Q10.
TC: Demoted to this year's Tailteann Cup
TCC: 2022 Tailteann Cup championn (Westmeath).

1. Mayo (Q10/Q9)
2. Galway (CH/CH)
3. Roscommon (Q11/Q10)
4. Tyrone (CH/CH)
5. Kerry (CH/CH)
6. Monaghan (Q12/Q11)
7. Dublin (CH/CH)
8. Derry (Q13/Q12)
9. Armagh (RU/RU)
10. Donegal (Q14/Q13)
11. Louth (RU/Q14)
12. Cork (Q15/Q15)
13. Kildare (Q16/Q16)
14. Meath (TC/TC)
15. Cavan (TC/TC)
16. Fermanagh (TC/TC)

And...
17/18. Clare/Limerick (RU/RU)
23/-. Sligo/New York (RU/RU)
20. Westmeath (TCC/TCC & RU)

In all cases I've assumed that all remaining championship games will be won by the team with the higher league position, except of course in scenario 2, in which Westmeath make the Leinster final.

We can now see that even though it looks as though a league place will be freed up by a Westmeath semifinal win (Mayo go from 10th entrant to 9th, suggesting the 16th would become the 15th and the next team on the list (Meath) would become 16th), instead we see that an otherwise qualified Leinster finalist (in this example Louth) merely joins the competition on their League position. To put it another way, the number of teams qualifying on League position does increase from 7 to 8, no question, but that spot is taken by a top team that would have qualified anyway if Westmeath hadn't qualified for the Leinster final."
As of the end of the league, Meath still had a chance of qualifying by NFL place. With two lower teams (Westmeath and the winner of the top half of Connacht) set to qualify, the bids could roll down to 14th.

But then Clare upset Cork. That added a third slot (the top half of Munster) guaranteed to go to a low-league team; the possible places now run out at 13th, just before reaching Meath.

silverpie (USA) - Posts: 1 - 15/04/2023 15:18:47    2471077

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Huge confusion has surrounded this question as to whether, for example, the Munster Winners would be in same group as Connacht runners-up. It now seems that NO is the answer.
You seem to have made a typo in saying that the losers of Galway/Roscommon will be a third seed."
Loser Ros/Galway will be 3rd seeds as will Mayo.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 15/04/2023 17:50:10    2471095

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Loser Ros/Galway will be 3rd seeds as will Mayo."
From GAA website:
First seeds: The four provincial champions
Second seeds: The four provincial runners-up.
Third seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league.
Fourth seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 15/04/2023 21:56:05    2471120

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Replying To legendzxix:  "That is the idea. Dead rubbers can still occur with the current format though.

Seed 1. Dublin
Seed 2. Sligo
Seed 3. Mayo
Seed 4. Westmeath
1. Dublin win at home to Mayo and away to Westmeath.
2. Sligo lose at home to Westmeath and away to Mayo.

Dublin - 4 points
Mayo - 2 points
Westmeath - 2 points
Sligo - 0 points
Sligo play Dublin in Round 3 where Dublin have won the ground and Sligo are already eliminated. Granted Mayo play Westmeath for a home preliminary quarter-final. Enough of an incentive?

Now, if provincial winners are Seed 1 and the rest are seeded on league ranking:

Seed 1. Dublin
Seed 2. Mayo
Seed 3. Armagh
Seed 4. Sligo
1. Dublin beat Armagh at home and Sligo away.
2. Mayo beat Sligo at home and Armagh away.

Dublin - 4 points
Mayo - 4 points
Armagh - 0 points
Sligo - 0 points
Dublin play Mayo in Round 3 where the winner advances to the quarter-finals. Armagh play Sligo in Round 3 where the winner advances to the preliminary quarter-finals.

Summary:
1. A low league ranked county as provincial runners-up and Seed 2 increase the possibility of dead rubbers.
2. A lower league ranked county as provincial runners-up and Seed 4 increases the possibility of more to play for in Round 3."
Makes a lot of sense.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3235 - 17/04/2023 15:34:31    2471402

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Replying To Aibrean:  "From GAA website:
First seeds: The four provincial champions
Second seeds: The four provincial runners-up.
Third seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league.
Fourth seeds: The next four highest ranked teams at the conclusion of the league."
And the loser of Roscommon and Galway will neither be a provincial winner or runner up so yes, they will be a 3rd seed.

Ros13 (Roscommon) - Posts: 117 - 17/04/2023 15:41:42    2471405

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Replying To Ros13:  "And the loser of Roscommon and Galway will neither be a provincial winner or runner up so yes, they will be a 3rd seed."
You are right.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 335 - 17/04/2023 22:11:16    2471474

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Roscommon or Galway and Derry or Monaghan will join Mayo and Tyrone as third seeds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 18/04/2023 12:57:06    2471558

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Roscommon or Galway and Derry or Monaghan will join Mayo and Tyrone as third seeds."
Unless Tipp and Laois/Kildare/Wicklow beat Kerry and Dublin.....
Yeah right!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 18/04/2023 14:45:13    2471589

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I had thought that the 4 provincial winners were to meet a provincial loser at home in their first round robin game?
In the Tuam Hearld yesterday PJ seems to say that the reward for the team who wins Connacht is a first game at home to a third tier team??

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 1278 - 20/04/2023 10:08:39    2471900

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Replying To giveitlong:  "I had thought that the 4 provincial winners were to meet a provincial loser at home in their first round robin game?
In the Tuam Hearld yesterday PJ seems to say that the reward for the team who wins Connacht is a first game at home to a third tier team??"
Game 1: Seed 1 v Seed 3, Seed 2 v Seed 4
Game 2: Seed 3 v Seed 2, Seed 4 v Seed 1
Game 3: Seed 1 v Seed 2, Seed 3 v Seed 4 (Neutral venues in Round 3 including Croke Park for Dublin!)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 20/04/2023 11:08:12    2471918

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Replying To giveitlong:  "I had thought that the 4 provincial winners were to meet a provincial loser at home in their first round robin game?
In the Tuam Hearld yesterday PJ seems to say that the reward for the team who wins Connacht is a first game at home to a third tier team??"
Don't know where ye get the misinformation ?
It was clearly stated at an early stage that round 1 was to be Provincial Champions at home to 3rd seeds .

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 20/04/2023 11:09:54    2471920

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Don't know where ye get the misinformation ?
It was clearly stated at an early stage that round 1 was to be Provincial Champions at home to 3rd seeds ."
There's misinformation as the thing is so complicated. To the average fan at least. Sure there have been multiple articles in the big papers where they got it completely wrong. Even Croke park sent out bad info to one journo and had to go back on it. The setup was stated early, just teh circumstances of teams change often so allows things to get mixed up

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 20/04/2023 11:48:48    2471929

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It doesn't matter what way you arrange the groups of four, they are not only not going to magically create more contenders, but are going to give higher ranked teams (on past form) a virtual guarantee of making the play offs.

Which again raises the distinct possibility that a team could lose in their province, then lose twice in the group stage, draw one game in group stage and still go through on points difference. Theoretically possible to lose or draw as many games as won, and win All Ireland. That makes a joke of any championship.


All of this absurdity will be highlighted over the coming weeks.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3503 - 20/04/2023 12:12:46    2471938

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "It doesn't matter what way you arrange the groups of four, they are not only not going to magically create more contenders, but are going to give higher ranked teams (on past form) a virtual guarantee of making the play offs.

Which again raises the distinct possibility that a team could lose in their province, then lose twice in the group stage, draw one game in group stage and still go through on points difference. Theoretically possible to lose or draw as many games as won, and win All Ireland. That makes a joke of any championship.


All of this absurdity will be highlighted over the coming weeks."
100%.The new championship format does nothing for the underdogs but nearly guarentees that all the top teams will reach the last 12. To have 3 teams qualify out of 4 is a joke. In a way some teams like Mayo and Tyrone are probably better off going this route and saves them getting injuries etc. It's ironic that the 3rd seeds will be stronger than the 2nd seeds. Already we know Mayo Tyrone and losers of Galway/Rossies are 3rd seeds.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3901 - 20/04/2023 12:34:21    2471947

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Am I right in saying that the following could happen in a most unlikely turn of events. Should Meath qualify for Leinster final, and Kildare beat dubs, and cavan etc get into ulster final. That both cork and louth are in tailteann cup ?

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 20/04/2023 13:19:17    2471959

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Am I right in saying that the following could happen in a most unlikely turn of events. Should Meath qualify for Leinster final, and Kildare beat dubs, and cavan etc get into ulster final. That both cork and louth are in tailteann cup ?"
Yep.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2292 - 20/04/2023 13:45:29    2471967

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Am I right in saying that the following could happen in a most unlikely turn of events. Should Meath qualify for Leinster final, and Kildare beat dubs, and cavan etc get into ulster final. That both cork and louth are in tailteann cup ?"
yep

armaghfan02 (Armagh) - Posts: 39 - 20/04/2023 13:45:35    2471968

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "100%.The new championship format does nothing for the underdogs but nearly guarentees that all the top teams will reach the last 12. To have 3 teams qualify out of 4 is a joke. In a way some teams like Mayo and Tyrone are probably better off going this route and saves them getting injuries etc. It's ironic that the 3rd seeds will be stronger than the 2nd seeds. Already we know Mayo Tyrone and losers of Galway/Rossies are 3rd seeds."
3 teams qualifying out of 4 is to have no dead rubbers and reward the positioning. 1st straight through, 2nd and 3rd in preliminary QF. This means that even after 2 rounds with 2 teams on 4 points at top, and 2 teams on 0, there is still something to play for in both games. It's not a great solution to play 24 games to eliminate 4 teams, but it's better that the Super 8 structure they had

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2466 - 20/04/2023 16:34:12    2472005

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "3 teams qualifying out of 4 is to have no dead rubbers and reward the positioning. 1st straight through, 2nd and 3rd in preliminary QF. This means that even after 2 rounds with 2 teams on 4 points at top, and 2 teams on 0, there is still something to play for in both games. It's not a great solution to play 24 games to eliminate 4 teams, but it's better that the Super 8 structure they had"
The flaw in the Super 8s was when two teams with 2 wins played in Round 3. Top 2 was already sewn up. A solution with flexible scheduling would allow the two Round 1 winners to play in Round 2. That way two teams with 1 win each are chasing a win in Round 3 to qualify.

If only the top 2 were to progress Scenario-1;
Seed 1: Dublin
Seed 2: Sligo
Seed 3: Mayo
Seed 4: Westmeath
Round 1: Dublin beat Mayo and Westmeath beat Sligo.
Round 2: Dublin beat Westmeath and Mayo beat Sligo.
Dublin 4 points, Mayo 2 points and Westmeath 2 points.
Round 3: Mayo (1 win) v Westmeath (1 win) is a shootout for second place. Dublin v Sligo is a dead rubber but as both Round 3 games throw-in at the same time, the majority can focus on Mayo v Westmeath.

If only the top 2 were to progress Scenario-2;
Seed 1: Dublin
Seed 2: Armagh
Seed 3: Mayo
Seed 4: Donegal
Round 1: Dublin beat Mayo and Armagh beat Donegal.
Round 2: Dublin beat Armagh and Donegal beat Mayo.
Dublin 4 points, Armagh 2 points and Donegal 2 points.
Round 3: Dublin (2 wins) v Donegal (1 win) and Armagh (1 win) v Mayo (0 wins)
Donegal and Armagh winning in R3 will result in three teams on 2 wins. Dublin and Mayo winning in R3 results in three teams on 1 win.

Flexible scheduling can allow for lesser impacts of dead rubbers and can allow for top 2 only qualifying from the groups. The preliminary quarter-finals is arguably unnecessary bloating of fixtures, especially in the split season structure. Mayo v Tyrone in the preliminary quarter-finals however would be some contest. Unnecessary bloating but it could be an exciting round of fixtures.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 20/04/2023 20:28:12    2472040

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