National Forum

Fly Goal Keepers

(Oldest Posts First)

I have been intrigued by the evolution of goal keepers and the way they now are mostly excellent outfielders. Its fascinating to watch.
However I wonder is it a deterrent to teams to push up and making teams more defensive.
Okay, teams can and should push up on kick outs , but once a team has won possession in their own defence we often see the attacking team retreat. Why? Because if they push up man on man . they will still be outnumbered by the goalkeeper coming out , so ultimately that numerical disadvantage can turn out to yielding good possession with a free man in the middle of the field. Now if you know there is going to be a free opponent in possession in the middle of the field, then you are much better served to have more players in defensive position rather than in the opponents half chasing a wild goose chase. .
I have a secondary issue with goalkeepers coming out the field, and that is with the colour of the jersey. Players are programmed to use colour based peripheral vision and I think that they can sometimes be hoodwinked into ignoring the opposing goalkeeper and sort of filtering him out of the equation in the same manner as they do the referee.
And colour clashes can be an issue. In theory now if both keepers roam simultaneously there is a 5 different coloured jerseys involved.
Now dont get me wrong , I like the idea of having ball players in goal with the opportunity to roam and teams that have this facility ( Galway not being one of them unfortunately) should not be penalised.
But I wonder are there any ideas to improve these problems.
One idea I can think of is:
a) Give keepers same coloured jersey as team mates
b) Bring in a rule that teams must keep at least 1 player inside their own 21 at all times
Not a perfect solution , I know, Has any one any other ideas?

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 02/03/2023 10:40:48    2461359

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The colour of the jersey is the big one for me standing out. Think it was Monaghan v Armagh at the start of the league, and Ethan Rafferty was up the pitch a lot wearing a mostly black jersey, the same as the ref. Think this needs to be considered going forward if there are clashes with officials

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2380 - 02/03/2023 11:35:36    2461374

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Replying To anotheralias:  "I have been intrigued by the evolution of goal keepers and the way they now are mostly excellent outfielders. Its fascinating to watch.
However I wonder is it a deterrent to teams to push up and making teams more defensive.
Okay, teams can and should push up on kick outs , but once a team has won possession in their own defence we often see the attacking team retreat. Why? Because if they push up man on man . they will still be outnumbered by the goalkeeper coming out , so ultimately that numerical disadvantage can turn out to yielding good possession with a free man in the middle of the field. Now if you know there is going to be a free opponent in possession in the middle of the field, then you are much better served to have more players in defensive position rather than in the opponents half chasing a wild goose chase. .
I have a secondary issue with goalkeepers coming out the field, and that is with the colour of the jersey. Players are programmed to use colour based peripheral vision and I think that they can sometimes be hoodwinked into ignoring the opposing goalkeeper and sort of filtering him out of the equation in the same manner as they do the referee.
And colour clashes can be an issue. In theory now if both keepers roam simultaneously there is a 5 different coloured jerseys involved.
Now dont get me wrong , I like the idea of having ball players in goal with the opportunity to roam and teams that have this facility ( Galway not being one of them unfortunately) should not be penalised.
But I wonder are there any ideas to improve these problems.
One idea I can think of is:
a) Give keepers same coloured jersey as team mates
b) Bring in a rule that teams must keep at least 1 player inside their own 21 at all times
Not a perfect solution , I know, Has any one any other ideas?"
I think if you give the goalies the same jersey as the outfield players, you'd have to change the rule that any defending player could touch the ball on the ground inside the small rectangle.

I think the fly goalie makes total sense, We're moving towards Aussie rules.

letsgosligo (Sligo) - Posts: 98 - 02/03/2023 11:40:30    2461375

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Replying To letsgosligo:  "I think if you give the goalies the same jersey as the outfield players, you'd have to change the rule that any defending player could touch the ball on the ground inside the small rectangle.

I think the fly goalie makes total sense, We're moving towards Aussie rules."
You would have to tweak that rule all right but i dont that would hugely impact anything

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 02/03/2023 12:56:45    2461390

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "The colour of the jersey is the big one for me standing out. Think it was Monaghan v Armagh at the start of the league, and Ethan Rafferty was up the pitch a lot wearing a mostly black jersey, the same as the ref. Think this needs to be considered going forward if there are clashes with officials"
blue jersey

armaghfan02 (Armagh) - Posts: 39 - 02/03/2023 14:02:10    2461406

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Replying To armaghfan02:  "blue jersey"
Right you are. It was Beggan actually that was wearing all black. I misremembered that one

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2380 - 02/03/2023 14:25:40    2461414

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I like it. It's within the rules and shows innovation. It has also created a whole new type of player. Cluxton redefined the role over ten years ago but this is possibly even more radical. Goalkeepers now will have to be able to not only kick accurately from their own line and from placed balls, but chip in with the assist for goal and the odd point!

I wonder would PP give me odds on the first goalkeeper to score a goal from play?

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2525 - 02/03/2023 15:16:05    2461436

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "I like it. It's within the rules and shows innovation. It has also created a whole new type of player. Cluxton redefined the role over ten years ago but this is possibly even more radical. Goalkeepers now will have to be able to not only kick accurately from their own line and from placed balls, but chip in with the assist for goal and the odd point!

I wonder would PP give me odds on the first goalkeeper to score a goal from play?"
Whatever about scoring a goal from play, I think our U20 goalkeeper of a few years ago - Ivan Meegan - was first to score a point. Coincidentally, it came against the Dubs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sk5kfcRwN4

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Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2229 - 02/03/2023 15:44:08    2461440

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I get your point but if the likes of Aidan O Shea was to stay on the edge of his square very few goalkeepers would leave their lines.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 02/03/2023 15:51:54    2461442

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Replying To anotheralias:  "I have been intrigued by the evolution of goal keepers and the way they now are mostly excellent outfielders. Its fascinating to watch.
However I wonder is it a deterrent to teams to push up and making teams more defensive.
Okay, teams can and should push up on kick outs , but once a team has won possession in their own defence we often see the attacking team retreat. Why? Because if they push up man on man . they will still be outnumbered by the goalkeeper coming out , so ultimately that numerical disadvantage can turn out to yielding good possession with a free man in the middle of the field. Now if you know there is going to be a free opponent in possession in the middle of the field, then you are much better served to have more players in defensive position rather than in the opponents half chasing a wild goose chase. .
I have a secondary issue with goalkeepers coming out the field, and that is with the colour of the jersey. Players are programmed to use colour based peripheral vision and I think that they can sometimes be hoodwinked into ignoring the opposing goalkeeper and sort of filtering him out of the equation in the same manner as they do the referee.
And colour clashes can be an issue. In theory now if both keepers roam simultaneously there is a 5 different coloured jerseys involved.
Now dont get me wrong , I like the idea of having ball players in goal with the opportunity to roam and teams that have this facility ( Galway not being one of them unfortunately) should not be penalised.
But I wonder are there any ideas to improve these problems.
One idea I can think of is:
a) Give keepers same coloured jersey as team mates
b) Bring in a rule that teams must keep at least 1 player inside their own 21 at all times
Not a perfect solution , I know, Has any one any other ideas?"
No need for any rule. If the Full forward stayed inside the 21 well the keeper wouldn't travel. Easy way to stop it.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 02/03/2023 16:13:06    2461451

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "No need for any rule. If the Full forward stayed inside the 21 well the keeper wouldn't travel. Easy way to stop it."
I doubt it would to be honest

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 02/03/2023 16:49:13    2461460

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Cake (Shane) Curran was as this crack over 20 years ago. He scored 1-1 in a Connacht Championship match as a goal keeper back in 2004 and got man of the match. He did similar in a championship match in Mullingar against ???
He was kicking long distance points for the Rossies well before Cluxton was doing so for Dublin.
However Chris O' Dowd (former minor goalkeeper + Moon Boy) did state that Cake could be like "a bull in a China Shop" sometimes.

letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 495 - 02/03/2023 17:00:44    2461467

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "No need for any rule. If the Full forward stayed inside the 21 well the keeper wouldn't travel. Easy way to stop it."
Always an easy way in Cavan. No wonder ye have tonnes of AIs… Oh wait…!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1903 - 02/03/2023 20:44:36    2461501

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There's no rule to say a goalkeeper can't come out and play as far up the pitch as he likes… If teams weren't coached so negatively by bringing all their attacking players back into defence then goalkeepers wouldn't be wandering into the wide open spaces in front of them… simple logic

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1904 - 03/03/2023 09:23:13    2461515

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "There's no rule to say a goalkeeper can't come out and play as far up the pitch as he likes… If teams weren't coached so negatively by bringing all their attacking players back into defence then goalkeepers wouldn't be wandering into the wide open spaces in front of them… simple logic"
100% correct. If lads like Clifford hung around the 13m line there not to many goalkeepers would go wandering up the field… The way things are going we will be bringing in the off side rule soon!

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 03/03/2023 09:45:29    2461521

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Absolutely no need for a rule change. It will evolve naturally. I think it's great, and there is a risk and reward to it.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7885 - 03/03/2023 09:59:06    2461525

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "There's no rule to say a goalkeeper can't come out and play as far up the pitch as he likes… If teams weren't coached so negatively by bringing all their attacking players back into defence then goalkeepers wouldn't be wandering into the wide open spaces in front of them… simple logic"
I think people are missing my point. Teams are coached negatively because their management believes ( rightly or wrongly) that these tactics give them the best chance of success.
No team manager wants to go out and play defensive football unless they think it will increase the chance of victory.
But many teams have to do it and they do it for that reason.
What we need to do at all times is consider if there are rules that we can bring that can adjust the risk versus reward equation to render the game more entertaining.
I am seeing some positive trends back towards pushing out on kickouts. Very few teams push on all kickouts but very few teams concede them all now.
When kick outs are contested the game is more entertaining.
The real scourge now is when teams manage to get possession in their own half of the field in more general play , the other team team to retreat rather than to try to hound the defenders. If these defenders don't break very quickly it leads to the slow build up lateral passing that we all dislike.
Now I don't think that this problem is purely related to the fly goalkeeper , but the use of the goalkeeper as an extra man does exacerbate this situation, because not only does it reduce the reward of pushing ( less chance of a turnover against an extra man) but it also increases the risk ( by pushing up you are increasing the chance of opponents creating more space when they do get it up the field as you will not be set up as well in defence). Its actually very simple when you think about it.

I agree that keeping forwards in place will make it a lot more risky to bring the keeper out, but these goalkeepers and defenders are very good at retaining possession now and by pushing up on them will only make it more beneficial for them to create more space.

Look, I am not saying that my proposal for a rule change makes sense. But what I am saying that we should be looking at and considering options, Burying the head in the sand and continue to say that we love goalkeepers coming out but we hate some of the style of the football that is being played does not make sense. I'm not saying that the former is the root cause of the latter , but it doesn't help it either.

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 03/03/2023 10:37:33    2461532

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Replying To Breffni1969:  "100% correct. If lads like Clifford hung around the 13m line there not to many goalkeepers would go wandering up the field… The way things are going we will be bringing in the off side rule soon!"
The only problem with your statement there is "lads like Clifford". And sure every team has lads like Clifford?
But you have reminded me that , yes, teams are less likely to be adventurous with their goalkeeper against teams like Dublin and Kerry. Its back to the risk versus reward, These top quality teams have a better chance of a) dispossessing you when you take the risk and b) a better chance of hurting you hard when they do dispossess you

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 03/03/2023 10:49:26    2461536

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Players nowadays are not coached to take on their man a beat him.
It's totally about retaining possession and waiting for an opening , hence the backward , sideways laborious handpassing.
Glorified basketball is the best way to describe it.
Gone are the days when a forward could win a 50/50 ball, take on his man and shoot .
Nobody travels faster than the ball and I can't understand why a quick ball into the full forward line be it up the wings or down the middle is not used more often.
Basically it's not used for the fear of losing possession. And secondly because there no forwards there in the 1st place.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 03/03/2023 11:21:54    2461544

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