National Forum

Should Provincial Draws Be Seeded?

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "
Replying To GreenandRed:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "[quote=Mayonman:  "Once you link them to the league you have to seed them. Otherwise it's not a meritocracy.

However
Seeding should be transparent and based on league positions only. No behind closed doors dodgy seedings to ensure traditional powers get to finals etc"
Agreed.
Connacht should have seeded as follows:
1. Galway, defending Connacht champions.
2. Mayo, 2nd in Division 1.
3. Roscommon, Division 2 winners.
4. Sligo, 3rd in Division 4.
5. Leitrim, 4th in Division 4.
6. London, 5th in Division 4.
7. New York, no league placing.

Galway receiving a bye to the semi-finals. Mayo as second seeds would have to be on the other side of the draw. (Defending Connacht champions would only start out in the quarter-finals if it is their turn to travel to London or New York.)"
No. Sligo, Leitrim, New York and London were on the receiving end of heavy defeats in Connacht recently. Not good for them in the long term. This way they've a chance of reaching a provincial final and qualifying for the Sam Maguire. Remember the excitement and interest generated when London reached the Connacht Final in 2013? It means less mismatches in Connacht in the early games too. Eventually they might separate provincial championships from All Ireland series but I'm happy with it unseeded."]Sligo, Leitrim, NY or London will now just get hammered in a Connacht Final and likely 3 more hammerings in the Group stages.
If I was a cynic I'd say the draw was rigged to encourage a tweak to the system for 2024!!!"]But don't roscommon get hammered in all Ireland series also? Let's be honest here. Two teams in connacht realistically have a chance of competing with the big boys. Galway and mayo. And even they struggle. We are no hopes as are sligo. Roscommon can't stay in division one at all and can't even get a manager.

thecatisbarking (Leitrim) - Posts: 8 - 17/10/2022 13:24:35    2444318

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Replying To Jack L:  "Apart from the Leitrim/London/Sligo/New York scenario in Connacht, all other potential provisional finalists will be from D1/2. That is seven with one from D4. Westmeath D3 are also guaranteed a spot in the AI series. This leaves seven places up for grabs. This means that all remaining D1 teams will reach the AI series with the teams who survive in D2 also qualifying.
All this means that the two teams relegated from D2 (unless they reach provisional final) and the two promoted teams from D3 missing out."
Limerick could get relegated from Division 2 but sneak into another Munster final, meaning the Division 3 winner will miss out. Cavan possibly will be most concerned about that.
Sligo or Leitrim getting into the All-Ireland series because of beating a fellow Division 4 county will not have the same respect as Westmeath who won the Tailteann Cup.
If Sligo and Leitrim were to beat a higher league provincial rival to make the Connacht final, people will respect it.
Now that the league ranking is linked to All-Ireland qualification, using league ranking for provincial draws is a logical step.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 17/10/2022 20:38:54    2444422

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"It highlights the madness of this provincial system as well that we're now talking about Division 4 teams going to be guaranteed a place in the Sam Maguire Cup" - Seán Cavanagh.
If seeding provincial championship draws has not got a majority in favour of it, possibly only allowing provincial winners, the Tailteann winner and the 11 highest league teams is the fairest solution?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 23/10/2022 10:00:11    2445087

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Replying To legendzxix:  ""It highlights the madness of this provincial system as well that we're now talking about Division 4 teams going to be guaranteed a place in the Sam Maguire Cup" - Seán Cavanagh.
If seeding provincial championship draws has not got a majority in favour of it, possibly only allowing provincial winners, the Tailteann winner and the 11 highest league teams is the fairest solution?"
I would agree with this. Seeding the provincials denies a team a chance at their day in the sun creating more division.
Your league position is your true standing. If a so called bigger county finds themselves bottom of div 2, relegated to div 3 and miss out then that's on them. No ideal solution but your idea is prob one of the fairest way and everyone knows where they stand and where they need to get to.

Auldleitrimgael (Leitrim) - Posts: 10 - 23/10/2022 10:49:52    2445089

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Replying To legendzxix:  ""It highlights the madness of this provincial system as well that we're now talking about Division 4 teams going to be guaranteed a place in the Sam Maguire Cup" - Seán Cavanagh.
If seeding provincial championship draws has not got a majority in favour of it, possibly only allowing provincial winners, the Tailteann winner and the 11 highest league teams is the fairest solution?"
So if Waterford beat Kerry in the first round of the championship. Rare but has happened. Go on and win the semi final but get beaten by Cork in the Munster final there year is finished but Kerry go on because they won the league. Using a diiferent competitions to decide who advances in the All-Ireland series does not seem right.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2629 - 26/10/2022 15:32:02    2445520

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Replying To Canuck:  "So if Waterford beat Kerry in the first round of the championship. Rare but has happened. Go on and win the semi final but get beaten by Cork in the Munster final there year is finished but Kerry go on because they won the league. Using a diiferent competitions to decide who advances in the All-Ireland series does not seem right."
It is understandable that some will be critical. The league can rank teams from 1 to 32. For teams with All-Ireland ambitions, progress through the league is obviously crucial.
If a team has a low league ranking but win their provincial championship, it is fully right that that is rewarded.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 28/10/2022 16:33:20    2445819

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is understandable that some will be critical. The league can rank teams from 1 to 32. For teams with All-Ireland ambitions, progress through the league is obviously crucial.
If a team has a low league ranking but win their provincial championship, it is fully right that that is rewarded."
Sure why bother with provincial at all so? Just have Division 1, and previous years Tailteann Cup winners plus 7 from Division 2 into the All Ireland round robin series. But don't call it an All Ireland series because not every county is competing in it no matter how faint their hopes of winning are. When the gloss fades on the Tailteann Cup in a few years and players realise the standard of football is awful compared to division 1 and 2 any talented athletes will question their intercounty commitments and either just play club or drift towards soccer, rugby or AFL. If they're going that route at least find some sort of national competition, outside of provincial, where so-called weaker counties can test themselves against a higher standard. Centenary Cup was a success back in the days before a back door championship. It's been done before, can try something again. As for 2023, no Connacht team has a divine right to play in a Connacht Final and I hope any of Sligo, Leitrim, New York or Leitrim can give them a huge test if not beat them. If you're good enough go out on the day and prove it and don't let a league position where you have a huge squad, great S&C and every refereeing decision go your way give you handy games in the province. Not a level playing field compared to so-called weaker counties. Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford showed, since 2001, what so called weaker counties can doo. We should be promoting football there and not blocking it.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7181 - 29/10/2022 13:39:55    2445858

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Sure why bother with provincial at all so? Just have Division 1, and previous years Tailteann Cup winners plus 7 from Division 2 into the All Ireland round robin series. But don't call it an All Ireland series because not every county is competing in it no matter how faint their hopes of winning are. When the gloss fades on the Tailteann Cup in a few years and players realise the standard of football is awful compared to division 1 and 2 any talented athletes will question their intercounty commitments and either just play club or drift towards soccer, rugby or AFL. If they're going that route at least find some sort of national competition, outside of provincial, where so-called weaker counties can test themselves against a higher standard. Centenary Cup was a success back in the days before a back door championship. It's been done before, can try something again. As for 2023, no Connacht team has a divine right to play in a Connacht Final and I hope any of Sligo, Leitrim, New York or Leitrim can give them a huge test if not beat them. If you're good enough go out on the day and prove it and don't let a league position where you have a huge squad, great S&C and every refereeing decision go your way give you handy games in the province. Not a level playing field compared to so-called weaker counties. Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford showed, since 2001, what so called weaker counties can doo. We should be promoting football there and not blocking it."
The provincial championships have traditionally provided the All-Ireland semi-finalists. The league has evolved into being a qualification path to the All-Ireland series as well. It is a fair qualification path. Provincial champions and qualifiers through the league is an interesting fair development. Respectful of tradition and embracing evolution.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 29/10/2022 14:52:40    2445868

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The provincial championships have traditionally provided the All-Ireland semi-finalists. The league has evolved into being a qualification path to the All-Ireland series as well. It is a fair qualification path. Provincial champions and qualifiers through the league is an interesting fair development. Respectful of tradition and embracing evolution."
To answer the thread title 'No they should not be seeded'. The traditional system is only 'fair' for stronger counties. The league should only be a qualification for the league championship.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7181 - 29/10/2022 16:13:30    2445884

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What annoys me about this sort of situation cropping up is that it was completely foreseeable and the GAA just didn't really care to do anything about it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4022 - 30/10/2022 11:28:39    2445939

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Replying To Whammo86:  "What annoys me about this sort of situation cropping up is that it was completely foreseeable and the GAA just didn't really care to do anything about it."
The GAA is consistently reactionary. It's how they operate.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 30/10/2022 17:07:25    2445972

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On the topic of the Division 4 teams in the Connacht championship, it's interesting to note that the five-year cycle for playing London and New York is basically two mini-cycles, a two-year one where Leitrim and Sligo play London and New York and then swap round the next year, and a three-year one where Galway, Mayo and Roscommon take turns. In those two years out of five where it's Leitrim and Sligo's turn to play the Exiles, there's a 33.3% chance they'll then be drawn to play each other in the semis (presuming they come home with wins, which didn't happen in 2012).

One way to "solve" the issue is to add a proviso to the draw for those two years that the winners of those two games can't play each other in the semifinals. (Also interestingly, in the other three years, Leitrim and Sligo are lumped in with one of the other three home teams to see what the other first round tie will be, and even then there's a 33.3% chance they'll be drawn together, albeit in the first round. But I guess that's neither here nor there.) Another way to solve it is by making it a truly five-year cycle as such, or at least "split" Leitrim and Sligo up so they're not both playing London and New York in the same year. Of course, even if you did that, and say you had Leitrim vs London and Roscommon and New York, you could still have Mayo drawn to play Galway with Sligo getting a bye and then Sligo being drawn to play the winners of Leitrim and London. But again you could make a similar condition like the one I described above. It's all about making sure there's at least one Div 1/2 team in each half of the draw, so that if a Div 3/4 team does make the final they'll have to earn it.

But let me say that, as a Leitrim native fan, I couldn't be happier with the draw and a great shot at making the Connacht final and rubbing shoulders with the big boys.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 943 - 31/10/2022 21:55:54    2446080

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Sligo 0-11 Roscommon 0-23
Galway 4-20 Leitrim 0-9
These results don't bode well for a competitive Connacht final in 2023.
The Sam Maguire group with Sligo or Leitrim will see 1 county advance to the quarter-finals and 2 counties advance to the preliminary quarter-finals. What are Sligo or Leitrim gaining from 4 potential thrashings?
The Tailteann Cup is there for succeeding at a level and then making the step up.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 01/11/2022 17:57:49    2446150

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sligo 0-11 Roscommon 0-23
Galway 4-20 Leitrim 0-9
These results don't bode well for a competitive Connacht final in 2023.
The Sam Maguire group with Sligo or Leitrim will see 1 county advance to the quarter-finals and 2 counties advance to the preliminary quarter-finals. What are Sligo or Leitrim gaining from 4 potential thrashings?
The Tailteann Cup is there for succeeding at a level and then making the step up."
Sure just let them get thrashed in an earlier round in provincial so. So they'll have games playing poor standard football on Division 3 and 4, a hiding in a provincial game then a few more games in a poor standard Tailteann Cup. The winner makes it to the All Ireland series next year. How long will they last there at that level of football.

Division 1 and 2 teams, higher standard of football for the league. Seeded to have more games in the province and later stages playing a higher standard of football. Regardless of provincial games most of them will be in round robin All Ireland series. Guaranteed 3 games improving their standard of football, more media coverage, easier to benefit from better sponsors for teams and the GAA

One law for the rich, another one for the poor.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7181 - 02/11/2022 12:46:00    2446225

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Sure just let them get thrashed in an earlier round in provincial so. So they'll have games playing poor standard football on Division 3 and 4, a hiding in a provincial game then a few more games in a poor standard Tailteann Cup. The winner makes it to the All Ireland series next year. How long will they last there at that level of football.

Division 1 and 2 teams, higher standard of football for the league. Seeded to have more games in the province and later stages playing a higher standard of football. Regardless of provincial games most of them will be in round robin All Ireland series. Guaranteed 3 games improving their standard of football, more media coverage, easier to benefit from better sponsors for teams and the GAA

One law for the rich, another one for the poor."
I mean it's not a poor standard for Leitrim or Sligo. There will be teams comfortably better than them in the Tailteann Cup.

If not they will win it and get the higher quality games the following season.

A soft route to the main competition is no good to anybody.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4022 - 02/11/2022 13:42:07    2446237

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I mean it's not a poor standard for Leitrim or Sligo. There will be teams comfortably better than them in the Tailteann Cup.

If not they will win it and get the higher quality games the following season.

A soft route to the main competition is no good to anybody."
It's a poor standard of football in Tailteann compared to the 'All' Ireland competition. If they won Tailteann they'd get some higher quality games the following season then back down to Tailteann if they don't get promoted to Division 2. The bigger counties have been getting soft routes to provincial finals and last 12, besides Ulster, for years because of seeding. Boo hoo for them. About time so-called weaker counties got something. This All Ireland round robin is just another GAA competition to have more games to broadcast and present it as counties having a better chance of getting to a final. How many chances do they need?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7181 - 02/11/2022 14:24:19    2446240

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's a poor standard of football in Tailteann compared to the 'All' Ireland competition. If they won Tailteann they'd get some higher quality games the following season then back down to Tailteann if they don't get promoted to Division 2. The bigger counties have been getting soft routes to provincial finals and last 12, besides Ulster, for years because of seeding. Boo hoo for them. About time so-called weaker counties got something. This All Ireland round robin is just another GAA competition to have more games to broadcast and present it as counties having a better chance of getting to a final. How many chances do they need?"
I think a team getting promoted to Tailteann has a great shot at staying up.

I wish it was just Championship and 2 tiers each with 2 groups of 8 with no NFL but anyway I don't see a problem with teams playing at our just above their level. That's how teams improve, mismatches are a waste of time for everyone.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4022 - 02/11/2022 14:46:58    2446244

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Westmeath will enter the All-Ireland series next year with the respect of the country after their Tailteann Cup win. Sligo and Leitrim will not have that respect due to a soft route to a Connacht final.
It's not their fault. Any counties upset about the possibility of missing out due to Sligo and Leitrim having an easy route should bring a motion to Congress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7573 - 02/11/2022 19:42:19    2446277

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