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Replying To IamADragon: "Stop allowing just anyone becoming a ref and make refs accountable for their poor decisions." Who should be allowed become a ref?
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 29/09/2022 11:17:50
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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet: "Re-write the ambiguous rules. Since GAA top brass tend to think GAA laying rules are fantastic already, there is no serious desire to have them professionally reviewed from a workability and ease of implementation perspective. Get inputs from senior referees in other team contact sports, e.g., rugby league / union, AFL, soccer. Goal to end up with a rule book which as far as possible cuts out the ambiguity, and the overly-wide refereeing discretion that follows. A ref can legitimately "blow everything" or "let the game flow"; and each approach, legitimate under current broad rules, creates a very different spectacle, to the extent that, in extreme cases, it's like watching 2 different sports. Real injustices occur when the same ref, in the same game, applies one approach to team A and the other approach to team B. Bias will always be with us, but we should at least tighten up and simplify our current rules, so as to reduce the scope for the "one game, two rule-books" issue.
For inter-co championship matches, have 2 referees on the pitch.
Have a ref training academy, and professionalise inter county champion refs. Pay them, something.
Wire up the refs.
Lengthy bans for anyone who deliberately lays a had on a ref., to get rid of the "I didn't hit him, I only pushed him" excuse." Who rewrites the rules and how many get a say in doing that.
Its the same in most sports that officials can referee differently especially when its not like tennis and a ball is either in our out. there has to be flexibility to allow for different situations that can and do arise.
of course an official shouldnt apply one approach to 1 team and another approach to the other team in a game but they can and should be free to approach things differently within the same game depending on the circumstances.
ie a big championship game a ref may start the game very strict on a certain action but maay relax this if the temperature of game isnt as high as they thought it was going to be pre match
there is far too much wrong with 1 ref and the 2 linesmen and 4 umpires at inter county level before you go and add a 2nd referee to the equation. give the linesmen and umpires more powers and more training to help them be better officials in games before adding a 2nd referee
when you say have a ref training academy what exactly do you mean and what exactly would it do?
wiring up refs for what?
a push is still a hit. it should be treated the same. you put your hands on a match official.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 29/09/2022 13:16:20
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There is a number off issues need sorting...
Firstly rules of sport aren't strong enough... A player can deliberately punch/Kick/elbow a lad maybe ending his season or work for that matter for number of weeks and what does the villain get..... A One match ban (for first offence)
Where is logic or deterrent in that.
Secondly every sending off is nearly appealed these days. I know of one case in a county where referee had stated player was sent off for striking with the hand.. player produced video to show he actually struck with the elbow and his suspension was overturned due to a technicality.... A poor Amateur referee trying to do his job as best he can and fills out his one page report is being dissected by professional solicitors etc... Justices weighs heavy on the wrong side
Finally any form of physical abuse to an official regardless of their quality/ability should have an automatic 6 month ban. To even have the thoughts to do same is those of someone who shouldn't be near a sideline and no place in our sport. Without referees our games wouldn't take part. I have yet to hear where a player is struck or physically abused because he made a mistake or because a supporter felt he made the wrong call by passing instead of shooting. People need to wise up and instead of accepting it as"the world we live in" , need to accept their is a culture of violence and we are only scraping the top of it to be fair as verbal abuse is heard at every match.
Quick suggestion... Any sort of verbal abuse to a ref he should have the ability to award a 20m free to opposition regardless of where play was at. Even if it was in oppositions keepers hands. This should include anyone from within the playing enclosure... ie include coaches mentors subs club secretaries etc. This may punish the team rather than the individual but the majority of the blame would land at the loudmouths feet
DeMan (Monaghan) - Posts: 115 - 29/09/2022 14:06:44
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Another situation n a senior hurling semi yday n sligo,manager and coach came on to the MIDDLE of the field to *### the head off the ref.....sligo cb ,will of course do nothing about it
Timmy86 (Sligo) - Posts: 270 - 03/10/2022 14:57:05
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Replying To Timmy86: "Another situation n a senior hurling semi yday n sligo,manager and coach came on to the MIDDLE of the field to *### the head off the ref.....sligo cb ,will of course do nothing about it" Unless you were actually standing with them, how do you know what happened between them?. If something did happen and the referee includes it in his report then it will be investigated. The one liner from you that the coach and manager came in at half time and ****** the head of the referee isn't a strong enough case for an investigation.
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1648 - 03/10/2022 15:55:18
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Replying To eoinog: "Unless you were actually standing with them, how do you know what happened between them?. If something did happen and the referee includes it in his report then it will be investigated. The one liner from you that the coach and manager came in at half time and ****** the head of the referee isn't a strong enough case for an investigation." I honestly dont know what occured in this case but is'nt that always the escape hatch. He said she said and I never heard that or said that. The referee is not a cop with the pupose of gathering information to make a case about getting abused. He is there to ref a sporting event. However why not use the cop example for the refs. Go before a judge when a cop claims you did and said something and see how well that will go for you. It wont make any difference how many of your buddies standing around say different. We just love grey area and ambiguity. The answer ? Shut your mouth before it gets you into trouble. If you have a question have a formal procedure to do so and you have no rebuff once that answer is given.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 04/10/2022 21:46:30
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Replying To Canuck: "I honestly dont know what occured in this case but is'nt that always the escape hatch. He said she said and I never heard that or said that. The referee is not a cop with the pupose of gathering information to make a case about getting abused. He is there to ref a sporting event. However why not use the cop example for the refs. Go before a judge when a cop claims you did and said something and see how well that will go for you. It wont make any difference how many of your buddies standing around say different. We just love grey area and ambiguity. The answer ? Shut your mouth before it gets you into trouble. If you have a question have a formal procedure to do so and you have no rebuff once that answer is given." You have lost me. Was doing ok until the last 2 lines and I'm not sure who you are directing those comments at ?. Maybe it's me.
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1648 - 05/10/2022 12:54:52
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Replying To eoinog: "You have lost me. Was doing ok until the last 2 lines and I'm not sure who you are directing those comments at ?. Maybe it's me." Not at all directed at you. Making a general point how all might be well advised to behave while the stucture has a formal procedure for raising a concern or a refereeing decision. It just might be better than punching him in the head or kicking him on the ground that is too common but denied. An example would be the captain can approach the ref once in each half for this. If he abuses or any other player or mentor interferrs in this process the captain gets sent off.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 05/10/2022 14:25:17
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We had our compulsory mentor meeting in our club on the subject last night. Many good ideas were put forward by many of the mentors on how to improve things going forwards. These are to go forward to the Board.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11730 - 05/10/2022 15:45:36
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Replying To Viking66: "We had our compulsory mentor meeting in our club on the subject last night. Many good ideas were put forward by many of the mentors on how to improve things going forwards. These are to go forward to the Board." We had ours 2 nights ago Viking, it is good to see it being well attended.
Will it change anything? It might change the sideline behaviour but it won't change the crowd behaviour.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 06/10/2022 08:58:20
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "We had ours 2 nights ago Viking, it is good to see it being well attended.
Will it change anything? It might change the sideline behaviour but it won't change the crowd behaviour." Was well attended! We are to have meetings with the parents at each age group at the start of each year to try tackle it. But when the red mist descends.... We were told there are 12 people interested in becoming new referees in the county for next year. Not all that many tbh.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11730 - 06/10/2022 09:58:23
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "We had ours 2 nights ago Viking, it is good to see it being well attended.
Will it change anything? It might change the sideline behaviour but it won't change the crowd behaviour." I'm not sure what could be done to change Crowd behaviour. Being honest if everyone inside the wire was on reasonable behaviour i'd take that. But then everyones opinion of what constitutes reasonable is different. Was at the games in Wexford Park last Sunday and I thought the attitudes on the sidelines was better than it might have been a few weeks ago. (especially in the first game which was a physically tough and very competitive match)
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 06/10/2022 10:22:38
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Replying To indaknownow: "I'm not sure what could be done to change Crowd behaviour. Being honest if everyone inside the wire was on reasonable behaviour i'd take that. But then everyones opinion of what constitutes reasonable is different. Was at the games in Wexford Park last Sunday and I thought the attitudes on the sidelines was better than it might have been a few weeks ago. (especially in the first game which was a physically tough and very competitive match)" You can't do much but you can start inside the fence and if that changes it can help improve things inside the fence in time
One of first things to be done is reduce numbers allowed inside the fence
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 06/10/2022 14:56:51
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Replying To indaknownow: "I'm not sure what could be done to change Crowd behaviour. Being honest if everyone inside the wire was on reasonable behaviour i'd take that. But then everyones opinion of what constitutes reasonable is different. Was at the games in Wexford Park last Sunday and I thought the attitudes on the sidelines was better than it might have been a few weeks ago. (especially in the first game which was a physically tough and very competitive match)" You can change crowd behaviour though. Supporters need to realise that every time a player falls to the ground, it is not necessarily a free.
And that referees are human. They make mistakes JUST LIKE PLAYERS.
And that some decisions go your way, some don't.
Refereeing is not an exact science and 99.9% of the cowards in the stand wouldn't have the balls to go out into the middle.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 06/10/2022 15:46:10
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I was at a county final at the weekend in a county which was not Wexford or Dublin, as a relation was playing.
Usual story. Referee, 4 umpires, and a fella from either club doing the line.
The guy on our side was giving everything the one way, the guy on the other side the opposite, much to the contention of supporters on both sidelines.
The GAA can find money for every sort of bluff bag at inter county level (e.g. a coach promising "It's more of a holistic approach to performance rather than purely looking very deep at psychology") but then can't have non-partisan linesmen for an underage county final?
I was not emotionally invested in either club but could see that the linesmen were both looking after their own clubs. Is fair play beyond these bell ends?
Could the GAA not find a student or young lad and give him 20 quid to call the line?
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 10/10/2022 16:34:52
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I was at a county final at the weekend in a county which was not Wexford or Dublin, as a relation was playing.
Usual story. Referee, 4 umpires, and a fella from either club doing the line.
The guy on our side was giving everything the one way, the guy on the other side the opposite, much to the contention of supporters on both sidelines.
The GAA can find money for every sort of bluff bag at inter county level (e.g. a coach promising "It's more of a holistic approach to performance rather than purely looking very deep at psychology") but then can't have non-partisan linesmen for an underage county final?
I was not emotionally invested in either club but could see that the linesmen were both looking after their own clubs. Is fair play beyond these bell ends?
Could the GAA not find a student or young lad and give him 20 quid to call the line?" Why would any student/young lad do the job of linesmen for lots of abuse etc for 20 quid with f all training and support?
Improve the training and support match officials get and help them more on the pitch with assessments, coaching and development not just give them a tiny amount of money and you will get more match officials to cover games
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 10/10/2022 18:01:19
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "I was at a county final at the weekend in a county which was not Wexford or Dublin, as a relation was playing.
Usual story. Referee, 4 umpires, and a fella from either club doing the line.
The guy on our side was giving everything the one way, the guy on the other side the opposite, much to the contention of supporters on both sidelines.
The GAA can find money for every sort of bluff bag at inter county level (e.g. a coach promising "It's more of a holistic approach to performance rather than purely looking very deep at psychology") but then can't have non-partisan linesmen for an underage county final?
I was not emotionally invested in either club but could see that the linesmen were both looking after their own clubs. Is fair play beyond these bell ends?
Could the GAA not find a student or young lad and give him 20 quid to call the line?" Talking about inter county and money for coaches is nothing to do with officials and especially respecting officials which this thread is about.
Why would a student or "young lad" spend 2/3 hours of their day between travelling to/from game, warm up, the game itself for 20 quid and potential for plenty of abuse. with no training and feck all assistance/training.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 10/10/2022 19:02:13
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From the BBC:
Referee abuse: FA issued 380 bans for grassroots match official attacks last season
Bans were handed to 380 players and coaches for attacking or threatening referees and match officials in English grassroots football last season.
Football Association disciplinary reports for the 2021-22 season highlight a catalogue of abuse against officials in youth and adult football.
The Merseyside Youth Football League has cancelled all fixtures for this weekend in protest at "multiple incidents of inappropriate and threatening behaviour" towards officials.
It said "we cannot allow this toxic behaviour to continue to escalate".
Keith Radcliffe, a senior referee in the league, told BBC Radio 5 Live the issue "seems to be across the whole of the country" and the league had decided to "take a stance" in postponing more than 70 games. There are 1,100 leagues and 18,500 clubs across all ages in England.
Last weekend, a referee suffered "significant" injuries when he was attacked while officiating a game between Platt Bridge FC and Wigan Rose FC on Sunday, and Greater Manchester Police (GMP) arrested a 24-year-old.
Radcliffe added: "It's parents, managers, coaches. They constantly bombard officials with a must-win attitude and say 'you've got it wrong'. They all want to have the next Messi and Ronaldo, because they couldn't be.
"A national rule has to come in to say if any misdemeanours happen, they are banned for three or four weeks, never mind a week.
"It can't continue. If it doesn't stop, referees are actually getting physically assaulted and there is going to be a national strike."
What do last season's FA reports show?
Sanctions for last season's incidents - which occurred across thousands of games - ranged from 112 days to eight years and came in a season where grassroots referees protested over the abuse they faced on the pitch.
Kent FA called for match officials to be treated with respect, blaming a 24% fall in the number of officials on "an unacceptable level of physical and verbal abuse".
Evidence given in disciplinary hearings show referees and their assistants being kicked, headbutted, punched, spat on and threatened with violence by players, club officials and spectators.
One cup final between sides from Blackburn and Oldham saw the referee knocked to the ground and up to 20 people punching him.
Some of the cases happened in junior football matches featuring children as young as 11.
'Parents are horrendous & referees are the easy victim'
Mum 'Helen', spoke to BBC Radio 5 live anonymously about her referee son, who she said is now in his late 20s and at "quite a high level" in the game.
"He's been refereeing since he was 16 and I've watched him make his way up through the ranks.
"I have just seen so much vitriol. The behaviour towards him is disgusting. I just can't go to any of his games any more.
"It's everybody. The parents, the players, the managers. It's your [the media's] pundits - they aren't backing the referees. They are setting a poor example for people who are emulating that behaviour."
'Helen' said her son had received death threats, but has told her "nothing will change".
Referees Association president Paul Field says he has "no sympathy" for those who are banned following match official abuse, particularly as it has a "profound effect" on their mental health.
He added the collated statistics "sounds a lot" and that referees are "easy victims" as they are often a team of one at grassroots level. Field feels strongly about making punishments more severe, including revoking coaches' FA qualification.
"I think there has to be a real recognition of partnership from the elite game throughout the FA," Field told BBC Sport.
"Grassroots football needs a lot more TLC and I'd increase bans towards any abuse. I'd increase it for spectators. The worst are parents. Parents are an absolute nightmare. It's easier to referee a Dog and Duck and Black Horse than it is an under-14s game. Parents are absolutely horrendous."
According to the FA there are about 28,000 qualified referees in England and some 4,000 taking refereeing courses each year.
Field said the number has remained stable for "decades" but explained there is a retention problem with thousands of officials leaving the game each year - though to attribute people leaving solely because of abuse is "factually incorrect", he added.
Work commitments or wanting to spend more time with their family at weekends were typical reasons for people leaving the role behind, he said.
Despite abuse not being the sole reason officials leave the game, Field does recognise the game has a problem. It is not just the abuse itself which is central to the issue, he said, but the lack of support referees have when it does occur from county FAs - typically the abuse happens outside of office hours.
"If someone got assaulted on a Saturday morning, it might not be until Wednesday that the county FA pick up the phone and ask how are you?"
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Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2447 - 11/10/2022 12:32:23
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Replying To KillingFields: "Talking about inter county and money for coaches is nothing to do with officials and especially respecting officials which this thread is about.
Why would a student or "young lad" spend 2/3 hours of their day between travelling to/from game, warm up, the game itself for 20 quid and potential for plenty of abuse. with no training and feck all assistance/training." So you think a fella from either club causing a riot on either sideline is better than giving a young lad (or lady) a few bob to go with a referee to call the line?
Who do these matches have neutral umpires but not neutral linesmen? That is the craziest part to me.
Calling the line is hardly a rocket science, who did the ball hit last.
If the best option is a lad from either club, then the referee might as well call it himself.
Why hasn't inter county and money for every bluff bag got anything to do with it? The GAA is awash with money for every charlatan and chancer at inter county level, while our club games are still stuck in the archaic systems which existed 50 years ago.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1122 - 11/10/2022 12:34:56
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "So you think a fella from either club causing a riot on either sideline is better than giving a young lad (or lady) a few bob to go with a referee to call the line?
Who do these matches have neutral umpires but not neutral linesmen? That is the craziest part to me.
Calling the line is hardly a rocket science, who did the ball hit last.
If the best option is a lad from either club, then the referee might as well call it himself.
Why hasn't inter county and money for every bluff bag got anything to do with it? The GAA is awash with money for every charlatan and chancer at inter county level, while our club games are still stuck in the archaic systems which existed 50 years ago." The referee can call it themselves anyway.
you keep using this phrase every charlatan and chancer at inter county level and havent yet said what types of people are chancers? Why is that??
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 11/10/2022 18:27:46
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