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Replying To foreveryoung: "The manager itself is a relatively new development in Gaelic games. Prior to Heffo and Micko, there weren't called managers.
Without the 'inside manager', we wouldn't have the outsider.
No, you can't count the number of AI victories by outsiders on one hand, but let's not be pedantic: Dermot Healy (1981), Eugene McGee (1982), Dermot Healy (1985), Eamon Cregan (1994), John O'Mahony (1998), and Michael Bond also in that same year. The outsiders did the double actually in 1998. Bet you loved that!
The outside manager can work quite well. Healy with his wealth of Kilkenny knowledge and experience certainly benefitted Offaly. Imagine what the likes of a Pat Gilroy or an Eamonn Fitzmaurice could do for the likes of a bereft Breffini county, ie. Khavhan.
The outside manager isn't going to do away. It's going to become more popular even. Such has been the dearth of success in Cork hurling (senior level) over the past 20 years or so, that Cork, Cork hurling seriously considered this year to bring in the first outside manager ever.
A county like Cork shouldn't need an outsider in hurling (football could do with one though), but hurling counties that consistently fail to get to the next level or to fulfill their full potential, such Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Dublin, Galway, and Wexford can certainly see the benefit of investing in an outsider. Sure they've all done it already, and many have been at it for years now, and for many of these counties, they have managed to keep hurling alive, progressive and in the public eye.
I don't think that Offaly would have made the breakthrough without Diarmuid Healy's input.
So, don't curse l,'etranger because what's at home is no good. I like the Chinese proverb, "Instead of cursing the darkness, go light a candle."" Well technically John Myler is an outdoor manager as he's actually from Wexford but has more than likely lived in Cork for longer.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 18/08/2022 09:18:09
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Replying To foreveryoung: "Diarmuid Healy, a Kilkenny man won twice with Offaly, in 1981 and 1985.
That brings it to six "outsider" victories, And onto the second hand.
I doubt that the Bull McCabe would be too overjoyed that the "outsider" even triumphed more than waunce (once)." Interesting to see that with Offaly all their hurling All Irelands had an outside manager.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 18/08/2022 09:28:45
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Replying To foreveryoung: "Diarmuid Healy, a Kilkenny man won twice with Offaly, in 1981 and 1985.
That brings it to six "outsider" victories, And onto the second hand.
I doubt that the Bull McCabe would be too overjoyed that the "outsider" even triumphed more than waunce (once)." I was mainly talking about football but when you mention 6 between the 2 codes it equates to less than 3% of All Ireland victories…. A woefully poor return for outside management…
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 18/08/2022 10:09:11
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Managers aren't being paid? Do you also believe in the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas?" I'm not saying I believe anything or nothing. Merely that you would have to prove they were definitely being paid more than what could be construed as reasonable expenses BEFORE there was a court case to answer for restriction of trade.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/08/2022 11:25:48
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "I was mainly talking about football but when you mention 6 between the 2 codes it equates to less than 3% of All Ireland victories…. A woefully poor return for outside management…" Ah statistics, 3% you say? Woefully poor you say?
Tell me, how many managers/coaches/trainers (call them what you want) have there been in the history of the GAA? And of them, how many have been 'inside' managers, and how many have been ' outside' managers?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2466 - 18/08/2022 11:27:47
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Can someone please answer the OPs question though?
If players have to be from the county they represent, then why not managers too?
Someone put forward the argument that outside managers can bring a wealth of expertise and experience that will improve a county, well the same thing could be said for outside players.
Are there any specific reasons why an outside manager would be a good thing, that doesn't apply to outside players?
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 18/08/2022 11:45:16
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "I was mainly talking about football but when you mention 6 between the 2 codes it equates to less than 3% of All Ireland victories…. A woefully poor return for outside management…" If you're measuring it only in terms of All-Ireland victories, then yes, it looks poor all right.
What you're not considering though is how most All-Irelands are won by the traditionally stronger counties (that's what has made them traditionally stronger in the first place!), and these counties are far less likely to appoint an outside manager.
Success for outside managers shouldn't just be measured in terms of All-Irelands. If they can bring a county forward from a level they've been stuck at for several years, then that's success too.
Just one example is Mick O'Dwyer with Wicklow. He got them up to Div. 3 after they'd been stuck in Div. 4 for more than a decade, and led them to their first-ever championship victory in Croke Park. Is that not a form of success?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2249 - 18/08/2022 13:50:02
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: "Ah statistics, 3% you say? Woefully poor you say?
Tell me, how many managers/coaches/trainers (call them what you want) have there been in the history of the GAA? And of them, how many have been 'inside' managers, and how many have been ' outside' managers?" What does that mater..? Nobody could answer that.. The main stat is that less than 3% of outside managers have delivered the top prize… a very merger return for moneys spent….!!!
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1928 - 18/08/2022 13:51:53
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Replying To oneoff: "Well technically John Myler is an outdoor manager as he's actually from Wexford but has more than likely lived in Cork for longer." Probably by around 15 years. He played for OLI in Wexford. This is a quote from his biography.
"I went to UCC in '74. And I never pretended to be a Cork person even though I played hurling for Cork and have managed all Cork hurling teams over the years. But they will not let you in and they have this pride in their own culture and their culture of success in sport."
So I guess he still sees himself as a Wexford man. Though maybe only because Cork people do. So you are right they have had an external manager!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/08/2022 13:53:20
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Replying To Pikeman96: "If you're measuring it only in terms of All-Ireland victories, then yes, it looks poor all right.
What you're not considering though is how most All-Irelands are won by the traditionally stronger counties (that's what has made them traditionally stronger in the first place!), and these counties are far less likely to appoint an outside manager.
Success for outside managers shouldn't just be measured in terms of All-Irelands. If they can bring a county forward from a level they've been stuck at for several years, then that's success too.
Just one example is Mick O'Dwyer with Wicklow. He got them up to Div. 3 after they'd been stuck in Div. 4 for more than a decade, and led them to their first-ever championship victory in Croke Park. Is that not a form of success?" But if outside players were to bring forward a county too, would that not also count as a success, and if not why not?
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 18/08/2022 14:49:52
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Replying To Viking66: "I'm not saying I believe anything or nothing. Merely that you would have to prove they were definitely being paid more than what could be construed as reasonable expenses BEFORE there was a court case to answer for restriction of trade." O come on Viking you are smarter than that and know different. When a junior club is bringing in someone from outside the first question is "how much do you want". The world and his mothers know that the question is not about expenses only. Let alone county team managers with photo ops of cars keys being handed over. If the ordinary person is given a car or expenses to get to work it is regarded as income and subject to taxing. Especially if you are a p.a.y.e. worker.
Okay if that is the way it is, lets be honest about it. Stop being in denial about it and drive on to making the professionalism available to all. We thrive on this nod nod wink wink stuff if it suits our agenda. if there was an audit of where GAA monies go it would clearly show that large sums of money are transferred to someone and it is not the person selling the match programs.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 18/08/2022 14:56:44
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What does that mater..? Nobody could answer that.. The main stat is that less than 3% of outside managers have delivered the top prize… a very merger return for moneys spent….!!!" If you don't know why it matters, then you don't understand statistics, and shouldn't be using them. Your 3% is a meaningless figure.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2466 - 18/08/2022 15:02:00
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Replying To Pikeman96: "If you're measuring it only in terms of All-Ireland victories, then yes, it looks poor all right.
What you're not considering though is how most All-Irelands are won by the traditionally stronger counties (that's what has made them traditionally stronger in the first place!), and these counties are far less likely to appoint an outside manager.
Success for outside managers shouldn't just be measured in terms of All-Irelands. If they can bring a county forward from a level they've been stuck at for several years, then that's success too.
Just one example is Mick O'Dwyer with Wicklow. He got them up to Div. 3 after they'd been stuck in Div. 4 for more than a decade, and led them to their first-ever championship victory in Croke Park. Is that not a form of success?" Kildare and Laois too. Paudi O Shea at Westmeath.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/08/2022 15:09:12
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Replying To Canuck: "O come on Viking you are smarter than that and know different. When a junior club is bringing in someone from outside the first question is "how much do you want". The world and his mothers know that the question is not about expenses only. Let alone county team managers with photo ops of cars keys being handed over. If the ordinary person is given a car or expenses to get to work it is regarded as income and subject to taxing. Especially if you are a p.a.y.e. worker.
Okay if that is the way it is, lets be honest about it. Stop being in denial about it and drive on to making the professionalism available to all. We thrive on this nod nod wink wink stuff if it suits our agenda. if there was an audit of where GAA monies go it would clearly show that large sums of money are transferred to someone and it is not the person selling the match programs." It was you that brought up court cases not me. Forums like this are grand for people like you and me. Unfortunately, well very fortunately tbh, courts need proof and don't give a #### what "the world and his mother" know or don't know!
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/08/2022 15:12:22
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Replying To Galway9801: "But if outside players were to bring forward a county too, would that not also count as a success, and if not why not?" Outside players and managers in order tiers in hurling have gone hand in hand for a while. It can bring success however it's normally only a short term thing as that's why managers are looking for.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 18/08/2022 15:13:36
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Replying To Viking66: "It was you that brought up court cases not me. Forums like this are grand for people like you and me. Unfortunately, well very fortunately tbh, courts need proof and don't give a #### what "the world and his mother" know or don't know!" Sorry Canuck it was Cockneycat that brought up court cases in the 1st place on this thread
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/08/2022 15:47:20
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Hurling and football are recreational sports at club level that feed a highly professional sport in many aspects at inter county level. At intercounty it is entertainment generating money and business opportunities for many in our society. I for one second don't think Davy Fitzgearld should travel form Clare and give his time for my entertainment. His head would need examine if he thought he should. If it was a concert I would expect to pay and the bigger the artist the greater the cost. The one big difference is the performer is PAID. Our expectation for our inter county players is they should do it for the love of the game and their county. Give up as much time and force their bodies for our enjoyment. O but no one is forcing them. What a feeble answer so we get our fix.
The reality is this will not continue and we can huff and puff all we like about it. There will be payment for the performer like the managers and the administrators with their top business style salaries that are required to run this elite organization. What won't continue is the raw material being free. The bla! bla! bla! honour of playing for your county.
The reality is there is an add hoc payment system (under denial) in place that benefits some more that others and is grossly unequal. Don't tell be for a second that the football manager in Letrim is reemburst (a fancy word for getting paid) the same as the manager in Dublin. Or the Mayo hurling manager the same as Davy in Waterford. The GAA is a wonderful organization and the envy of many others. Instead of being in denial and while keeping there many great ethos's they could come up with a system where all inter county managers and players are treated equally from centralized funding. We don't need to follow the capitalist model of haves and have nots. Leave that for other aspects of life. Our sport at grass roots was never about that anyway. Level the playing field for a start and see where that takes us.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 18/08/2022 22:04:12
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Replying To Canuck: "Hurling and football are recreational sports at club level that feed a highly professional sport in many aspects at inter county level. At intercounty it is entertainment generating money and business opportunities for many in our society. I for one second don't think Davy Fitzgearld should travel form Clare and give his time for my entertainment. His head would need examine if he thought he should. If it was a concert I would expect to pay and the bigger the artist the greater the cost. The one big difference is the performer is PAID. Our expectation for our inter county players is they should do it for the love of the game and their county. Give up as much time and force their bodies for our enjoyment. O but no one is forcing them. What a feeble answer so we get our fix.
The reality is this will not continue and we can huff and puff all we like about it. There will be payment for the performer like the managers and the administrators with their top business style salaries that are required to run this elite organization. What won't continue is the raw material being free. The bla! bla! bla! honour of playing for your county.
The reality is there is an add hoc payment system (under denial) in place that benefits some more that others and is grossly unequal. Don't tell be for a second that the football manager in Letrim is reemburst (a fancy word for getting paid) the same as the manager in Dublin. Or the Mayo hurling manager the same as Davy in Waterford. The GAA is a wonderful organization and the envy of many others. Instead of being in denial and while keeping there many great ethos's they could come up with a system where all inter county managers and players are treated equally from centralized funding. We don't need to follow the capitalist model of haves and have nots. Leave that for other aspects of life. Our sport at grass roots was never about that anyway. Level the playing field for a start and see where that takes us." Yeah those damn capitalists eh?
Yawn.
Tell you what, let's level the playing field, and start showing a few Nicky rackard matches instead of munster championship matches, see how many people tune in, or pay to go see them live.
The FAI would love to see that.
And our sport ar grassroots is 100 % like that btw. Maybe your clubs junior players get looked after the same as the seniors, and get the same amount of support from your community, but mine sure doesn't.
The whole purpose of sport is to see whose best, which if you think about it is the exact opposite of levelling the playing field.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 19/08/2022 12:04:23
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Replying To Galway9801: "Yeah those damn capitalists eh?
Yawn.
Tell you what, let's level the playing field, and start showing a few Nicky rackard matches instead of munster championship matches, see how many people tune in, or pay to go see them live.
The FAI would love to see that.
And our sport ar grassroots is 100 % like that btw. Maybe your clubs junior players get looked after the same as the seniors, and get the same amount of support from your community, but mine sure doesn't.
The whole purpose of sport is to see whose best, which if you think about it is the exact opposite of levelling the playing field." We haven't come far as humans, as a community, as a sport if the only purpose of our games is to see who's best. Who's best is actually at the end of the line after friendship, companionship, leadership, healthy excercise and community bonding etc. etc. Of course it is not true anyway of what I know of our GAA family. A life time of seeing how they rally around both winners and losers in times of crisis.
That is the experience and opinion of old fellow capitalist who would and do supported out games at all levels. Again in my opinion there is no need to sacrifice Munster or any other championship matches to promote the sport in McDonagh, Nicky Rackard and other so called lesser competitions. Just a willingness to do it.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 19/08/2022 14:14:22
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Replying To Canuck: "We haven't come far as humans, as a community, as a sport if the only purpose of our games is to see who's best. Who's best is actually at the end of the line after friendship, companionship, leadership, healthy excercise and community bonding etc. etc. Of course it is not true anyway of what I know of our GAA family. A life time of seeing how they rally around both winners and losers in times of crisis.
That is the experience and opinion of old fellow capitalist who would and do supported out games at all levels. Again in my opinion there is no need to sacrifice Munster or any other championship matches to promote the sport in McDonagh, Nicky Rackard and other so called lesser competitions. Just a willingness to do it." Great post. There are far more important things about the GAA than who wins the 2 senior intercounty titles each year.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 19/08/2022 14:29:20
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