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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Besides Harry Kane who are England's consistently high performing front 6 players under Southgate?"
Saka Foden Sterling Rashford Bellingham Mount Rice.......'front 6' will include a few half decent midfielders. Kane can look a bit average at the top notch stage imo. At Euro 2020, it was Sterling, not Kane, who hit tournament winning form. Move onto Qatar, and its Kane again letting the side down, failing to convert a key spot kick.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3495 - 21/06/2023 13:02:34    2488126

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Very true, only the media were afraid of Keane they would have took Martin O Neill (who has more football brains in his wee finger than Kenny) out and shot him. Disgraceful remarks from Dumphry and the like. Now papers would give Kenny 100 chances to prove himself. Unwatchable rubbish. Outside of Seamus Coleman the rest are amateurs.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1714 - 21/06/2023 11:58:50

I like Martin O'Neill but in the 2nd half of his tenure as Ireland manager he fell well below his own standards.His man management was very poor and he got totally outclassed tactically time and again.

His tactical naivety in the home playoff against Denmark was the worst I've ever seen an Irish manager crumble under the pressure. It was bafflingly stupid from a manager of his experience, it was so bad he hasn't recovered since.

It was sad to see such a massive fall from grace. He just seem to complete lose it.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13725 - 21/06/2023 13:45:59    2488149

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Saka Foden Sterling Rashford Bellingham Mount Rice.......'front 6' will include a few half decent midfielders. Kane can look a bit average at the top notch stage imo. At Euro 2020, it was Sterling, not Kane, who hit tournament winning form. Move onto Qatar, and its Kane again letting the side down, failing to convert a key spot kick."
He did, but I thought he actually played well against France. He gave Upamecano all kinds of problems. Up to that point he had been a bit of a flat track bully in major tournaments, filling his boots against the lower ranked teams.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2065 - 21/06/2023 13:46:22    2488150

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Saka Foden Sterling Rashford Bellingham Mount Rice.......'front 6' will include a few half decent midfielders. Kane can look a bit average at the top notch stage imo. At Euro 2020, it was Sterling, not Kane, who hit tournament winning form. Move onto Qatar, and its Kane again letting the side down, failing to convert a key spot kick."
Not club form. For England only. You're picking one penalty miss by Kane but it wasn't for Kane they wouldn't get as far as they do. It was a shocking miss, no doubts. Way more to his game than goalscoring, club or country. I agree with you on Sterling. Poor for Chelsea but decent for England. Saka is quality.

I think, depending on who replaces Southgate, England can get a lot more from the rest you named and Grealish. Southgate too risk averse. Some of them overhyped especially Mount because agents want them hyped to jack up wages and transfer fees. Too many in English media think they're of a competition standard of Spain, France, Italy, Germany. But at least they've won one since '51!

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 21/06/2023 14:09:25    2488156

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Good post jimbo. In my lifetime I've been lucky enough to have seen two very decent Irish squads.
Firstly - the Jack Charlton era. Jack was clever and exploited the ancestry rule fully. It's too simplistic to say that Jack's job became easy by doing so. He still had to mould those guys into a harmonious squad. The football may not have been pretty at times but we were one of the toughest nuts to crack in World football, and our FIFA ranking through that period proved it.

Then we had the Mick McCarthy era. We still picked players with Irish ancestry but we also had a very fine crop of home grown players come through at the same time - Duff, Keane, Given, Dunne etc. Throw in the world class quality of Roy Keane, and good solid pro's like Kinsella, Cunningham etc and there was a very decent side there. We probably should have qualified for more big tournaments other than WC 2002, truth be told.

Trap's 2012 squad and O'Neill's 2016 squad were OK, and did well to qualify for those tournaments, but neither were very special.

Now however, it's harder to attract real top quality ancestral players to declare for Ireland (Rice & Grealish), plus we don't look like producing a lot of real quality home grown players, Evan Ferguson possibly the exception.

So something like you have suggested is definitely the route we should be going down. Whether we have the money, the patience or the expertise within the FAI to draw up such a framework is doubtful however."
The FAI I wouldn't trust

That's why we need to look at a successful working model with a similar playing population to Ireland.

Hire the right people, build the right structures and also invest and build up the existing assets, but with the guidance of experts that have already delivered.

I know times have changed over in England, there was a time when "Home nation" players were more heavily involved with top clubs, but that was of course before the floods of what can be bog standard European/African/Asian footballers taking up the spaces, but again, surely we can be producing at the very least that standard of player.

Just don't think there's really anything being done to try and build for the future, for me, it's hugely beneficial for our people and nation to enjoy supporting Ireland at major tournaments, it brings with it huge benefits.. hugely positive.

Soccer/football is a very wide spread sport in Ireland but let's be honest, there's huge state money being pumped into GAA and to a lesser extent Rugby, soccer historically is very poorly funded, we all know why..

But look at the Rugby now in Ireland, with a far more professional approach and Irish players actively playing at a high level, at home and across Europe, with a MUCH smaller playing population, Ireland are currently capable of competing with, and beating nations on a world level.

I think we have the playing population here to be doing the same with soccer, but it won't just happen.. it's possible that a few will get to that level, but without the efforts we won't be producing enough and simply won't be any sort of good side, now with the ranking system, Ireland will always end up with teams at a world level in their group.. and stand almost no chance of qualifying for any major tournament.

We are now seeing the lack of a strategic plan over the decades. It all sort of just happened.. the good times. It had nothing to do with a cohesive and professional structure.

The Irish talent isn't get a sniff over in the UK anymore, even bench warming in lower divisions with the odd exception and it's getting ever more rare by the year, and with the sports washing oil money now.... Zero chance very soon.

We need to get with it, because we are going nowhere fast and actually being left miles behind even by country setups with similar sets of parameters to ourselves.

Look at what can be achieved, The Irish rugby setup is a good example. I know it's not like for like but with time and effort I think we will see similar positive outcomes, there's plenty of other high standard leagues in Europe, I think that's where we should be looking to send out well coached and staregically supportered talent, but again, it won't just magically happen.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20608 - 21/06/2023 14:36:13    2488165

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Good post jimbo. In my lifetime I've been lucky enough to have seen two very decent Irish squads.
Firstly - the Jack Charlton era. Jack was clever and exploited the ancestry rule fully. It's too simplistic to say that Jack's job became easy by doing so. He still had to mould those guys into a harmonious squad. The football may not have been pretty at times but we were one of the toughest nuts to crack in World football, and our FIFA ranking through that period proved it.

Then we had the Mick McCarthy era. We still picked players with Irish ancestry but we also had a very fine crop of home grown players come through at the same time - Duff, Keane, Given, Dunne etc. Throw in the world class quality of Roy Keane, and good solid pro's like Kinsella, Cunningham etc and there was a very decent side there. We probably should have qualified for more big tournaments other than WC 2002, truth be told.

Trap's 2012 squad and O'Neill's 2016 squad were OK, and did well to qualify for those tournaments, but neither were very special.

Now however, it's harder to attract real top quality ancestral players to declare for Ireland (Rice & Grealish), plus we don't look like producing a lot of real quality home grown players, Evan Ferguson possibly the exception.

So something like you have suggested is definitely the route we should be going down. Whether we have the money, the patience or the expertise within the FAI to draw up such a framework is doubtful however."
The FAI I wouldn't trust

That's why we need to look at a successful working model with a similar playing population to Ireland.

Hire the right people, build the right structures and also invest and build up the existing assets, but with the guidance of experts that have already delivered.

I know times have changed over in England, there was a time when "Home nation" players were more heavily involved with top clubs, but that was of course before the floods of what can be bog standard European/African/Asian footballers taking up the spaces, but again, surely we can be producing at the very least that standard of player.

Just don't think there's really anything being done to try and build for the future, for me, it's hugely beneficial for our people and nation to enjoy supporting Ireland at major tournaments, it brings with it huge benefits.. hugely positive.

Soccer/football is a very wide spread sport in Ireland but let's be honest, there's huge state money being pumped into GAA and to a lesser extent Rugby, soccer historically is very poorly funded, we all know why..

But look at the Rugby now in Ireland, with a far more professional approach and Irish players actively playing at a high level, at home and across Europe, with a MUCH smaller playing population, Ireland are currently capable of competing with, and beating nations on a world level.

I think we have the playing population here to be doing the same with soccer, but it won't just happen.. it's possible that a few will get to that level, but without the efforts we won't be producing enough and simply won't be any sort of good side, now with the ranking system, Ireland will always end up with teams at a world level in their group.. and stand almost no chance of qualifying for any major tournament.

We are now seeing the lack of a strategic plan over the decades. It all sort of just happened.. the good times. It had nothing to do with a cohesive and professional structure.

The Irish talent isn't get a sniff over in the UK anymore, even bench warming in lower divisions with the odd exception and it's getting ever more rare by the year, and with the sports washing oil money now.... Zero chance very soon.

We need to get with it, because we are going nowhere fast and actually being left miles behind even by country setups with similar sets of parameters to ourselves.

Look at what can be achieved, The Irish rugby setup is a good example. I know it's not like for like but with time and effort I think we will see similar positive outcomes, there's plenty of other high standard leagues in Europe, I think that's where we should be looking to send out well coached and staregically supportered talent, but again, it won't just magically happen.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20608 - 21/06/2023 14:36:24    2488166

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Not club form. For England only. You're picking one penalty miss by Kane but it wasn't for Kane they wouldn't get as far as they do. It was a shocking miss, no doubts. Way more to his game than goalscoring, club or country. I agree with you on Sterling. Poor for Chelsea but decent for England. Saka is quality.

I think, depending on who replaces Southgate, England can get a lot more from the rest you named and Grealish. Southgate too risk averse. Some of them overhyped especially Mount because agents want them hyped to jack up wages and transfer fees. Too many in English media think they're of a competition standard of Spain, France, Italy, Germany. But at least they've won one since '51!"
I think England will be favourites to win Euro 2024. They have an abundance of talent and are maybe only lacking a solid centre back to go beside Stones. Their first choice goalkeeper is an accident waiting to happen as well.

I do think they'll need to go for it a bit more though. It was fine margins against France at the World Cup. I reckon they need to trust their better players more than they have in the past. As you say Southgate can be very risk-averse. The team below would take some beating.

1. Ramsdale

2. Walker/James/Trippier
3. Shaw/Chilwell
4. Stones
5. Dunk

6. Rice
7. Bellingham
8. Alexander-Arnold

9. Kane
10. Saka
11. Rashford/Grealish/Foden

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9188 - 21/06/2023 14:47:40    2488174

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I think England will be favourites to win Euro 2024. They have an abundance of talent and are maybe only lacking a solid centre back to go beside Stones. Their first choice goalkeeper is an accident waiting to happen as well.

I do think they'll need to go for it a bit more though. It was fine margins against France at the World Cup. I reckon they need to trust their better players more than they have in the past. As you say Southgate can be very risk-averse. The team below would take some beating.

1. Ramsdale

2. Walker/James/Trippier
3. Shaw/Chilwell
4. Stones
5. Dunk

6. Rice
7. Bellingham
8. Alexander-Arnold

9. Kane
10. Saka
11. Rashford/Grealish/Foden"
That's a good side alright

But France very nearly won the last WC without several of their prominent players available

France will be very hard to stop

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20608 - 21/06/2023 16:12:53    2488203

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Replying To jimbodub:  "That's a good side alright

But France very nearly won the last WC without several of their prominent players available

France will be very hard to stop"
France are a good side because they've had Mbappe in good form and the standard of the rest when they get to the latter stages of tournaments isn't as good as 10 years ago. A lot of countries who seem highly rated flatter to deceive when they get into the big competitions, Brazil, England, Spain, Germany. Croatia, though well dependant on Modric, can punch above their rating, great teamwork and work ethic. Belgium a team of good individuals rarely have the stomach for a fight, very overrated.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7390 - 21/06/2023 17:39:53    2488230

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Is there a more lowlife, cruel country than Britain? Doubt it, scandal after scandal. Now Windrush again.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2023 - 21/06/2023 23:26:10    2488291

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Replying To jimbodub:  "The FAI I wouldn't trust

That's why we need to look at a successful working model with a similar playing population to Ireland.

Hire the right people, build the right structures and also invest and build up the existing assets, but with the guidance of experts that have already delivered.

I know times have changed over in England, there was a time when "Home nation" players were more heavily involved with top clubs, but that was of course before the floods of what can be bog standard European/African/Asian footballers taking up the spaces, but again, surely we can be producing at the very least that standard of player.

Just don't think there's really anything being done to try and build for the future, for me, it's hugely beneficial for our people and nation to enjoy supporting Ireland at major tournaments, it brings with it huge benefits.. hugely positive.

Soccer/football is a very wide spread sport in Ireland but let's be honest, there's huge state money being pumped into GAA and to a lesser extent Rugby, soccer historically is very poorly funded, we all know why..

But look at the Rugby now in Ireland, with a far more professional approach and Irish players actively playing at a high level, at home and across Europe, with a MUCH smaller playing population, Ireland are currently capable of competing with, and beating nations on a world level.

I think we have the playing population here to be doing the same with soccer, but it won't just happen.. it's possible that a few will get to that level, but without the efforts we won't be producing enough and simply won't be any sort of good side, now with the ranking system, Ireland will always end up with teams at a world level in their group.. and stand almost no chance of qualifying for any major tournament.

We are now seeing the lack of a strategic plan over the decades. It all sort of just happened.. the good times. It had nothing to do with a cohesive and professional structure.

The Irish talent isn't get a sniff over in the UK anymore, even bench warming in lower divisions with the odd exception and it's getting ever more rare by the year, and with the sports washing oil money now.... Zero chance very soon.

We need to get with it, because we are going nowhere fast and actually being left miles behind even by country setups with similar sets of parameters to ourselves.

Look at what can be achieved, The Irish rugby setup is a good example. I know it's not like for like but with time and effort I think we will see similar positive outcomes, there's plenty of other high standard leagues in Europe, I think that's where we should be looking to send out well coached and staregically supportered talent, but again, it won't just magically happen."
Yeah you have summed it up well. Weirdly, I would compare it to what's going on in Donegal GAA at the minute. We are a football mad county, and occasionally a crop of players comes along capable of doing great things. But it is more by accident than design.

Karl Lacey spent a lot of time & effort constructing an Academy which in the long term would have benefitted Donegal GAA hugely. We finally had a coherent structure in place which would have ensured that the best young players in the county had all the resources and tools at their disposal to fully maximise their potential.

But no. A combination of ego, incompetence & lack of transparency has meant that the Academy is on hold for now, and one of our brightest and best GAA minds is now coaching in Down instead. Dia sábháil....

Anyway, like you say, the FAI need to be doing a whole lot more. Their attitude to the domestic league is ambivalent at best. They need to be looking at what works well in other similar sized countries. I think Croatia is a perfect example. Set up regional centers of excellence & have a common pathway to ensure our brightest prospects are getting everything they need to succeed.

I look back on my youth and remember some of the best times were supporting Ireland at major tournaments. It's looking further and further away nowadays. Now that I am a father myself it saddens me that my kids might not get to enjoy similar experiences.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9188 - 22/06/2023 07:33:17    2488310

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Replying To jimbodub:  "That's a good side alright

But France very nearly won the last WC without several of their prominent players available

France will be very hard to stop"
Hmm Pogba? I think he's finished. He can't stay fit and flatters to deceive when he does. I know they also lost their left back early in the WC too. Benzema may have made the difference in the final alright, but it looks like he is done with international football. Kante as well.

I do think they have upgraded in the goalkeeping department. Maignan looks a lot more solid than Lloris & look, France will always have quality coming through so they'll be there or thereabouts.

I just think England's time is coming. Other traditional rivals just aren't as good at the moment...Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland are off it. The likes of Portugal, Croatia and Belgium would be tricky opponents but ones that England now have the wherewithal to deal with.

Premature I know, but even this far out I'd give them the nod, with France their one major obstacle.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9188 - 22/06/2023 07:49:11    2488312

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Is there a more lowlife, cruel country than Britain? Doubt it, scandal after scandal. Now Windrush again."
Plenty. North Korea is a one man cult. The Saudis still behead people in public with a sword. PNG is the rape capital of the world. Oh and don't forget about the big one in Europe right now. Russia.

You need to get your head checked if you think Britain comes anywhere close to being a cruel country. The Windrush thing isn't good but they have allowed millions to settle and make a new life for themselves.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 23/06/2023 07:12:35    2488531

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Dee Forbes anyone?

KnockaineyAbú (Limerick) - Posts: 96 - 27/06/2023 19:20:33    2490234

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Replying To KnockaineyAbú:  "Dee Forbes anyone?"
They're all RTE heads here, won't hear a bad word :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8603 - 30/06/2023 11:45:48    2490821

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Replying To realdub:  "They're all RTE heads here, won't hear a bad word :D"
You wont hear from the rugby heads

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 534 - 01/07/2023 14:08:41    2491025

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Replying To mooncat:  "You wont hear from the rugby heads"
why is rugby even being mentioned in this?
Nothing to do with rugby..

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3523 - 01/07/2023 15:03:16    2491048

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Replying To KillingFields:  "why is rugby even being mentioned in this?
Nothing to do with rugby.."
How much money did RTE spend on rugby trips and tickets?

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 534 - 01/07/2023 23:10:01    2491197

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Replying To KillingFields:  "why is rugby even being mentioned in this?
Nothing to do with rugby.."
It's the heart beat of the nation. And when they bate the chops off one other in the tunnel, sure it's just the goys having a bit of fun.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2651 - 02/07/2023 01:09:50    2491209

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Wimbledon I absolutely hate it. Middle class, entitled spoilt brats playing it and City of London stockbrokers wives watching it. Look at the heck of the ones at it. Yuppies and Hooray Henrys & Henriettas.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9719 - 03/07/2023 13:54:56    2491826

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