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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Would the cementing of the border not be more accurately described as taking place in 1925 when Cosgrave prioritised writing off Ireland's imperial war debt over pursuing territorial changes through the Boundary Commission which would have rendered the Northern statelet unviable??" That was never going to happen anyway and was another false promise. Right up to the time of the war there were people in the UK government that believed that Ireland was a dominion and did not have the right to exist as a separate nation, the border to them while it existed was between two parts of the empire. At its height of the fear of invasion following Dunkirk, there were those in the UK government who were willing to accept an united Ireland for the dropping of Neutrality, the offer was turned down and the UK turned to NI as its western most outpost in the battle for the Atlantic. Ireland had proven itself to be an independent nation and NI had proven its loyalty and worth to the UK. The border between the two parts of the Island had been firmly established in the mindset of those in the UK establishment. The Unionists could now also safely say that only they could be trusted to rule and rules alone as Catholics could not be trusted as they owed their allegiance to Ireland. I am sure that the same argument is now being made about a SF Prime Minister in NI. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 10/05/2023 14:19:24 2477339 Link
Replying To zinny: "That was never going to happen anyway and was another false promise. Right up to the time of the war there were people in the UK government that believed that Ireland was a dominion and did not have the right to exist as a separate nation, the border to them while it existed was between two parts of the empire. At its height of the fear of invasion following Dunkirk, there were those in the UK government who were willing to accept an united Ireland for the dropping of Neutrality, the offer was turned down and the UK turned to NI as its western most outpost in the battle for the Atlantic. Ireland had proven itself to be an independent nation and NI had proven its loyalty and worth to the UK. The border between the two parts of the Island had been firmly established in the mindset of those in the UK establishment. The Unionists could now also safely say that only they could be trusted to rule and rules alone as Catholics could not be trusted as they owed their allegiance to Ireland. I am sure that the same argument is now being made about a SF Prime Minister in NI." The British could not care less about the Unionists now. One thing the British and the Unionists share in common is that they have no grasp of their evil colonial history. Many British people believe that the empire was a good thing that brought law and order to the World instead of the misery it caused to many millions while the Unionists can not grasp that they are the villains of Irish history. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 10/05/2023 15:22:31 2477360 Link
Replying To zinny: "That was never going to happen anyway and was another false promise. Right up to the time of the war there were people in the UK government that believed that Ireland was a dominion and did not have the right to exist as a separate nation, the border to them while it existed was between two parts of the empire. At its height of the fear of invasion following Dunkirk, there were those in the UK government who were willing to accept an united Ireland for the dropping of Neutrality, the offer was turned down and the UK turned to NI as its western most outpost in the battle for the Atlantic. Ireland had proven itself to be an independent nation and NI had proven its loyalty and worth to the UK. The border between the two parts of the Island had been firmly established in the mindset of those in the UK establishment. The Unionists could now also safely say that only they could be trusted to rule and rules alone as Catholics could not be trusted as they owed their allegiance to Ireland. I am sure that the same argument is now being made about a SF Prime Minister in NI." Could De Valera have accepted the offer of a United Ireland in return for dropping neutrality?? They are not the most trustworthy of people what if they reneged on the deal after the war in the face of Unionist opposition?? Ireland's neutrality would have been compromised for no gain?? Even now they are attempting to lock Scotland into the Union by not authorising a vote on Scottish independence. The Tories have always been full of liars and the current Tory Government is one of the worst for dishonesty. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 10/05/2023 15:36:16 2477363 Link
Stick to the hurling and football lads .... BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 10/05/2023 21:11:27 2477439 Link
When chips are down the English reveal themselves, John Milton Cromwells organ grinder famously said to paraphrase "I would rather live in a Little England than a Great Britain full of trecherous Presbyterian Scots and cut throat Irish papists". Did not Churchill send De Valera a taunting telegram when the US declared war on Axis, meaning he no longer needed his support with false promises of NI being handed too rest of Ireland. They are treacherous. arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 10/05/2023 21:50:41 2477452 Link
Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Could De Valera have accepted the offer of a United Ireland in return for dropping neutrality?? They are not the most trustworthy of people what if they reneged on the deal after the war in the face of Unionist opposition?? Ireland's neutrality would have been compromised for no gain?? Even now they are attempting to lock Scotland into the Union by not authorising a vote on Scottish independence. The Tories have always been full of liars and the current Tory Government is one of the worst for dishonesty." I think at the time there were some ministers who did genuinely believe that they could achieve it but they did not understand Ireland. We would have seen a rerun of 1912. Churchill would never force NI into a union even a United Ireland that he envisioned, one that came back into the empire under the King. Churchills attitude to ireland was made obvious in his response to Devs proposal to allow the Americans the effective guarantors of Irish Neutrality (which if happened would have eventually brought Ireland into the war) Churchill in no way wanted the Americans involved, he viewed Ireland as a domestic matter. Dev had no choice but to reject it. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 11/05/2023 07:43:42 2477470 Link
Replying To zinny: "I think at the time there were some ministers who did genuinely believe that they could achieve it but they did not understand Ireland. We would have seen a rerun of 1912. Churchill would never force NI into a union even a United Ireland that he envisioned, one that came back into the empire under the King. Churchills attitude to ireland was made obvious in his response to Devs proposal to allow the Americans the effective guarantors of Irish Neutrality (which if happened would have eventually brought Ireland into the war) Churchill in no way wanted the Americans involved, he viewed Ireland as a domestic matter. Dev had no choice but to reject it." Yeah he had no choice but to reject it. The British can never be trusted. It is a shame that partition has endured for over a Century now. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 11/05/2023 10:59:00 2477529 Link
2 good finals in Aviva this weekend.. hard to know how many will be there on friday but capacity saturday. will be there for both. should be good weekend.. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/05/2023 18:13:27 2479072 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "2 good finals in Aviva this weekend.. hard to know how many will be there on friday but capacity saturday. will be there for both. should be good weekend.." Looking forward to Saturday, the two best teams in Europe, hopefully home advantage get Leinster over the line in front of full house. seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2142 - 18/05/2023 17:40:48 2479490 Link
Replying To seadog54: "Looking forward to Saturday, the two best teams in Europe, hopefully home advantage get Leinster over the line in front of full house." It shows that games can be won and lost of small errors - two kicks direct into touch, they needed to lift the siege and instead opened the gates. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 21/05/2023 10:24:57 2479903 Link
Replying To zinny: "It shows that games can be won and lost of small errors - two kicks direct into touch, they needed to lift the siege and instead opened the gates." Looking forward to much hand wringing, an Irish Times frontpage, and maybe even a Joe Duffy phone in and messages from Ministers about violence and thuggery in rugby. "Shame on the nation," "Won't somebody think of the children?" etc, etc .... BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 21/05/2023 11:29:58 2479924 Link
Delighted to see Leinster beaten again by La Rochelle. There's an arrogance around Leinster rugby and their fanbase who thought they just had to turn up to win. Looks like they couldn't take defeat either by the off field rumblings that went on in the tunnel. Leinster rugby and it's support needs to learn some humility and grace. Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9702 - 22/05/2023 10:04:02 2480330 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Looking forward to much hand wringing, an Irish Times frontpage, and maybe even a Joe Duffy phone in and messages from Ministers about violence and thuggery in rugby. "Shame on the nation," "Won't somebody think of the children?" etc, etc ...." What 'violence and thuggery'? Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2466 - 22/05/2023 10:17:29 2480344 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Looking forward to much hand wringing, an Irish Times frontpage, and maybe even a Joe Duffy phone in and messages from Ministers about violence and thuggery in rugby. "Shame on the nation," "Won't somebody think of the children?" etc, etc ...." what violence and thuggery? KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 22/05/2023 10:59:46 2480383 Link
Replying To Ulsterman: "Delighted to see Leinster beaten again by La Rochelle. There's an arrogance around Leinster rugby and their fanbase who thought they just had to turn up to win. Looks like they couldn't take defeat either by the off field rumblings that went on in the tunnel. Leinster rugby and it's support needs to learn some humility and grace." To be fair, the tunnel incident was at half time when Leinster were winning the match. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 22/05/2023 11:02:40 2480387 Link
Eh, was there not some incident between certain chaps? Wasn't watching it but it's been on sports headlines just now on RnaG. Been investigated by the nternational authorities. Funnily enough the Blackrock Boys ... sorry RTÉ, deem it not to be important enough for their rugby website. I reckon if Cahill and Kiely had hopped off one another in tunnel rather than exchange a bit of crack we'd have a national media enquiry. Perhaps i am mistaken. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 22/05/2023 11:11:30 2480399 Link
The Irish Government should be using its influence to call for a border poll asap. With all the cuts in the North (no pay rises in the North for nurses etc), Nationalists outpolling Unionists for the first time in the council elections, the incredible rise of Sinn Fein, Brexit and the finances of the Republic being in a very good place now is the perfect time to win a poll because it is the middle ground who vote on economic issues who will decide the outcome. If the economy in the Republic was to worsen in the next five to ten years a poll will be much harder to win. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 23/05/2023 10:53:47 2480807 Link
Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "The Irish Government should be using its influence to call for a border poll asap. With all the cuts in the North (no pay rises in the North for nurses etc), Nationalists outpolling Unionists for the first time in the council elections, the incredible rise of Sinn Fein, Brexit and the finances of the Republic being in a very good place now is the perfect time to win a poll because it is the middle ground who vote on economic issues who will decide the outcome. If the economy in the Republic was to worsen in the next five to ten years a poll will be much harder to win." Nationalist vote overall has barely changed in 30 years. SF have cannibalised the SDLP vote, that's all. So there is no provision in GFA to call a poll, and if there was one it would lose. Unionists + Alliance (small u unionists) + nationalists who do not support unity would win easily on basis of election results. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2557 - 23/05/2023 12:12:17 2480841 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Nationalist vote overall has barely changed in 30 years. SF have cannibalised the SDLP vote, that's all. So there is no provision in GFA to call a poll, and if there was one it would lose. Unionists + Alliance (small u unionists) + nationalists who do not support unity would win easily on basis of election results." The Unionist vote has fallen dramatically over the last 20 years. The economy in the North is getting worse. The middle ground vote on economic grounds. In Scotland independence started off on 28% and they ended up getting 45% in the actual vote. Nationalism in the North is starting on around 40%. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 23/05/2023 12:24:52 2480851 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "Nationalist vote overall has barely changed in 30 years. SF have cannibalised the SDLP vote, that's all. So there is no provision in GFA to call a poll, and if there was one it would lose. Unionists + Alliance (small u unionists) + nationalists who do not support unity would win easily on basis of election results." The Sinn Fein vote was up 7.7% from the 2019 council elections. The SDLP was only down 3.3%. REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 23/05/2023 12:27:31 2480855 Link