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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I will make the same point on construction as I did on healthcare. We didn't train anyone for about a decade. There's a massive shortfall to make up in housing stock. We need enough workers to close that gap. They may be immigrants, or we may offer incentives for our own people to come home (that alone would not be enough). I don't know how many people that is but it's an equation to provide your answer.

36% of job seekers were not born in Ireland. That is too many. People routinely site the fact that Irish people have always worked abroad. That is true, but America, Canada, Australia, UK didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for us as far as my own memory goes.

To be honest I feel we have a moral obligation to provide asylum. Secondly other cultures enrich and compliment our own. The only thing I'm advocating for is a rational approach.

I only really started thinking constructively about this after the horrible knife incident in Dublin. It was so easily preventable. Hindsight is of no use to those parents."
You have opened another line for debate with that stat on jobseekers. 36% not born in Ireland. I thought that we were close to full employment ? With the 4/5 % unemployment rate mostly comprised of "unemployable" for various reasons, one being they don't want to work and are in full receipt of every available assistance. Some of these would be 3rd or 4th generational unemployed. Perhaps this isn't the case. Are "jobseekers" in a different category?

Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1892 - 15/10/2025 11:04:01    2640087

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Replying To cluichethar:  "The world revolves around numbers. Is 100 enough is 10,000 too many. Again health care & construction workers comes up as a need if that is true then why is Ireland exporting these people all over the world. Why aren't these people staying in Ireland where I'm told the wages are high.
Education, 40,000 foreign students in Ireland that's about 15% of the third level student population, is that a problem. Is that stopping Irish students from attending third level education or are the Irish students just not there."
The government pared back third level funding after the financial crash and getting students from outside the EU is a large part of the the universities income. They pay huge fees. It's not stopping Irish students, course numbers way bigger now than they were 20 years ago, to the point of the time spent practical elements in some courses have been cut in half. Irish students also fee paying now but not as high as the international students, but I get the impression that there is a dumbing down of standards in some courses just to keep students going until they graduate and therefore 4 years of fees.

On your first question I'd say a couple of things. Irish students now come out of third level with debt which was not the case 20 years ago. Also they will be relatively well paid here but they might get better pay in another country. Qualified doctors might be thinking, I've paid huge money on 7 years of fees and renting so I'm going to go where I can get the highest possible wage after all the work I put in. Same as a qualified person from Asia, they might get well paid relative to other people's salary in their home country but they can get an even better wage here.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 410 - 15/10/2025 11:26:19    2640092

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I will make the same point on construction as I did on healthcare. We didn't train anyone for about a decade. There's a massive shortfall to make up in housing stock. We need enough workers to close that gap. They may be immigrants, or we may offer incentives for our own people to come home (that alone would not be enough). I don't know how many people that is but it's an equation to provide your answer.

36% of job seekers were not born in Ireland. That is too many. People routinely site the fact that Irish people have always worked abroad. That is true, but America, Canada, Australia, UK didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for us as far as my own memory goes.

To be honest I feel we have a moral obligation to provide asylum. Secondly other cultures enrich and compliment our own. The only thing I'm advocating for is a rational approach.

I only really started thinking constructively about this after the horrible knife incident in Dublin. It was so easily preventable. Hindsight is of no use to those parents."
Ireland and the Western EU has had uncontrolled immigration for over 10 years now, possibly 15 years, which is now causing major strain on housing and services, because functional Countries cannot absorb such levels of immigration without encountering major civil issues. I'm not anti-immigration, but it needs to be put on hold for a few years to balance things out.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are ultimately responsible for this, they pushed for Lisbon Treaty II to get passed, they have failed to act despite warning signs, so I am not surprised people have taken to the streets.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1496 - 15/10/2025 11:26:34    2640093

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I will make the same point on construction as I did on healthcare. We didn't train anyone for about a decade. There's a massive shortfall to make up in housing stock. We need enough workers to close that gap. They may be immigrants, or we may offer incentives for our own people to come home (that alone would not be enough). I don't know how many people that is but it's an equation to provide your answer.

36% of job seekers were not born in Ireland. That is too many. People routinely site the fact that Irish people have always worked abroad. That is true, but America, Canada, Australia, UK didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for us as far as my own memory goes.

To be honest I feel we have a moral obligation to provide asylum. Secondly other cultures enrich and compliment our own. The only thing I'm advocating for is a rational approach.

I only really started thinking constructively about this after the horrible knife incident in Dublin. It was so easily preventable. Hindsight is of no use to those parents."
Ireland and the Western EU has had uncontrolled immigration for over 10 years now, possibly 15 years, which is now causing major strain on housing and services, because functional Countries cannot absorb such levels of immigration without encountering major civil issues. I'm not anti-immigration, but it needs to be put on hold for a few years to balance things out.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are ultimately responsible for this, they pushed for Lisbon Treaty II to get passed, they have failed to act despite warning signs, so I am not surprised people have taken to the streets.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1496 - 15/10/2025 11:26:38    2640094

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "There's never been as many college courses available Cluichethar, fulltime, part-time, classroom, online, blended. The standard of education being delivered from all courses is debatable."
But it's great in the amount of choices for people now compared to not too long ago. It suits the person working odd hours and/or raising children, farmers, etc.

SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 66 - 15/10/2025 11:34:15    2640096

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Their size doesn't matter. That rationale would be good for any nation. The needs of the society aren't that different, if anything we should be better at it that them because of our size.

The sign off from Brussels remark is an interesting one. I understand the spirit of the EU but I would argue our representatives tend not to rock the boat. Do we have the best arrangement we could have? I think not."
There is an impression out there, possibly due to our politicians, that we have no power over this ourselves. It suits them to hide behind Brussels and not make their own decisions, but our immigration policy with regard to non-EU countries is very much our own. Fair enough we can't stop free movement of EU citizens, but we do have the power to deport them if they committ a crime. It is up to us how to control non-EU immigration and Denmark has established a very rigorous immigration policy despite being in the EU.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 410 - 15/10/2025 11:36:21    2640097

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Spot on. Zero problem with foreign immigration as long as it's legal and they are contributing to Irish society. Many as you say are, healthcare being the main sector.

It's the lads in groups hanging around street corner shouting that makes my blood boil."
Well said, I think most people would agree with you there.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2535 - 15/10/2025 11:56:25    2640102

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "There's never been as many college courses available Cluichethar, fulltime, part-time, classroom, online, blended. The standard of education being delivered from all courses is debatable."
I'd argue many college course aren't worth the paper they are written on. Too many bogus courses. Big focus needed on trades and apprenticeships. There is a huge shortage in this sector. If I had my time back again id be going down that route. Great money and plenty of work.

Many who went to college will find it hard get work in the coming years due to AI.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11796 - 15/10/2025 12:00:42    2640105

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Replying To Freethinker:  "You have opened another line for debate with that stat on jobseekers. 36% not born in Ireland. I thought that we were close to full employment ? With the 4/5 % unemployment rate mostly comprised of "unemployable" for various reasons, one being they don't want to work and are in full receipt of every available assistance. Some of these would be 3rd or 4th generational unemployed. Perhaps this isn't the case. Are "jobseekers" in a different category?"
Yes we do have full employment by the accepted economic definition.

The term jobseekers in this context is referring to claimants of a specific type of allowance.

You are correct as well. There is a significant proportion of those who claim this benefit who have never been employed. I was a manager in the deasp a number of years ago and regularly met several generations of the same family who were experts in entitlements. This is far away from our other discussion but an important one to have in terms of our culture and socioeconomic disadvantaged areas.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3975 - 15/10/2025 12:40:02    2640112

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Replying To Commodore:  "Ireland and the Western EU has had uncontrolled immigration for over 10 years now, possibly 15 years, which is now causing major strain on housing and services, because functional Countries cannot absorb such levels of immigration without encountering major civil issues. I'm not anti-immigration, but it needs to be put on hold for a few years to balance things out.

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are ultimately responsible for this, they pushed for Lisbon Treaty II to get passed, they have failed to act despite warning signs, so I am not surprised people have taken to the streets."
We were far from a functional country 15 years ago as regards housing, health and education. We still arent either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17234 - 15/10/2025 13:41:17    2640124

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Replying To yew_tree:  "I'd argue many college course aren't worth the paper they are written on. Too many bogus courses. Big focus needed on trades and apprenticeships. There is a huge shortage in this sector. If I had my time back again id be going down that route. Great money and plenty of work.

Many who went to college will find it hard get work in the coming years due to AI."
Many lads I know working in construction/trades didn't go back after the last crash. Some I know had to suffer visits from Social Welfare inspectors to their house. Those visits often comprised of the inspector looking at their house and telling them they are not entitled to welfare because their house is big. Almost as if it was nothing to do with them being in the trade, getting trade prices & working their backside off in their own time to build on the cheap.

I don't blame them for not going back. Completely shafted by our Government whose answer was to introduce property tax and USC to compensate for the false economy they allowed to bloom via transactional taxes.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6602 - 15/10/2025 14:15:24    2640129

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I will make the same point on construction as I did on healthcare. We didn't train anyone for about a decade. There's a massive shortfall to make up in housing stock. We need enough workers to close that gap. They may be immigrants, or we may offer incentives for our own people to come home (that alone would not be enough). I don't know how many people that is but it's an equation to provide your answer.

36% of job seekers were not born in Ireland. That is too many. People routinely site the fact that Irish people have always worked abroad. That is true, but America, Canada, Australia, UK didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for us as far as my own memory goes.

To be honest I feel we have a moral obligation to provide asylum. Secondly other cultures enrich and compliment our own. The only thing I'm advocating for is a rational approach.

I only really started thinking constructively about this after the horrible knife incident in Dublin. It was so easily preventable. Hindsight is of no use to those parents."
Where does that 36% of jobseekers figure come from Doyler? Does that include unvetted IPAS applicants who arent allowed to work here yet?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17234 - 15/10/2025 14:17:59    2640130

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "As usual, Barney is correct.

20% of population in 2022 was born outside of state, The % is now 25%. That includes 100,000+ citizens born overseas. The largest % is NOT from UK and other EU.

CSO also forecasts that 90% of population growth over foreseeable future will be immigrants. Do you think that's either normal or healthy?

You can find all of this in latest CSO release https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2025/data/

Or perhaps you think the CSO made them up?"
Forecasts and estimates are not statistics.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8286 - 15/10/2025 14:19:53    2640131

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Replying To yew_tree:  "I'd argue many college course aren't worth the paper they are written on. Too many bogus courses. Big focus needed on trades and apprenticeships. There is a huge shortage in this sector. If I had my time back again id be going down that route. Great money and plenty of work.

Many who went to college will find it hard get work in the coming years due to AI."
Like what are referring to what exact college courses.

Stem most students are employed short time after grad psychology degree also beneficial and business degrees hugely beneficial so what course do you refer to and I also agree trade is essential

Gaaforlife2023 (Longford) - Posts: 1038 - 15/10/2025 14:48:17    2640137

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Replying To FullOfPorter:  "There is an impression out there, possibly due to our politicians, that we have no power over this ourselves. It suits them to hide behind Brussels and not make their own decisions, but our immigration policy with regard to non-EU countries is very much our own. Fair enough we can't stop free movement of EU citizens, but we do have the power to deport them if they committ a crime. It is up to us how to control non-EU immigration and Denmark has established a very rigorous immigration policy despite being in the EU."
Agree however the assumption that all non eu immigrants are all same or problematic is also bit unfair just cause outside eu doesnt mean they are not legal or genuine in some cases

Gaaforlife2023 (Longford) - Posts: 1038 - 15/10/2025 14:50:03    2640139

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Forecasts and estimates are not statistics."
Anyone with even a passing interest in demographic trends and a basic grasp of maths will know their forecasts are likely to be very accurate.
Birth rates in Ireland have fallen sharply in the past 15 years, now in line with a lot of the rest of Europe. We were a bit later to see them fall to levels seen in many parts of Europe. This trend is occurring in many parts of the world, not just Europe. The far east experienced it first, and even countries like India, Mexico, Turkey and Brazil are seeing their rates plummet in more recent years. Japan and Korea which had low birth rates for even longer, are forecast to lose a significant amount of their population.
Birth rates here are well below the rate of replacement, and they're not coming back close to it again. They haven't in any other country. Natural population growth is essentially non-existent in Europe. Immigration will be the source of any population growth seen by European countries over the coming decades.
The vast majority of countries with birth rates above the rate of replacement are those with higher rates of inequality and less education opportunities for women.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2596 - 15/10/2025 14:53:33    2640140

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Replying To slayer:  "Many lads I know working in construction/trades didn't go back after the last crash. Some I know had to suffer visits from Social Welfare inspectors to their house. Those visits often comprised of the inspector looking at their house and telling them they are not entitled to welfare because their house is big. Almost as if it was nothing to do with them being in the trade, getting trade prices & working their backside off in their own time to build on the cheap.

I don't blame them for not going back. Completely shafted by our Government whose answer was to introduce property tax and USC to compensate for the false economy they allowed to bloom via transactional taxes."
A good few of them went back to college to upskill after the crash, any in Engineering. Many of them ended up in Pharma or Tech sector which, at the time, was a steadier income and better to be in when applying for a mortgage. But still you'll find some electricians, plumbers, mechanics etc doing trade nixers on their days off. They have a huge work ethic. Not so sure about the work ethics of younger college graduates reared by hardworking Mam and Dad during the Celtic Tiger boom.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8286 - 15/10/2025 14:55:02    2640141

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Forecasts and estimates are not statistics."
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3492 - 15/10/2025 15:01:50    2640143

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Replying To SouthGalway:  "But it's great in the amount of choices for people now compared to not too long ago. It suits the person working odd hours and/or raising children, farmers, etc."
It can definitely help them with managing work, family and study balance. I think if your considering a course then do some research on the course, try and talk to someone who did the course for their opinion. Some online courses are poorly managed, lecturers are hard to contact and not committed to best teach their course, give heavy hints what will be on exams. Which is great if you just need a qualification but not good if you want knowledge and practical experience of your course subjects. Others are good courses and sometimes making extra effort to get to classroom suits some students better than online classes.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8286 - 15/10/2025 15:14:22    2640144

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Forecasts and estimates are not statistics."
What an insightful contribution.

Let me try to help. They are statistically based estimates and forecasts. The official ones have been consistently wrong (gross under-estimates) whereas others have been correct.

The official ones are still likely to be underestimates, The population born overseas has jumped by 5% in three years since the last census.

The issue here is not the figures. The issue is whether you agree that this trend is a good thing and that it will withing 2/3 generations mean that the majority of the population of 26 counties will be born outside of the state and/or of immigrant families.

If you think that is a good thing, fine. Do not pretend that it is not happening.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3722 - 15/10/2025 15:16:33    2640146

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