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Replying To Galway9801:  "So, you're suggesting that academic excellence is divided completely evenly among all ethnicities and to think otherwise is racist. Is it actually the case that there is no disparity at all?"
I think you will find that it's pretty much accepted by every scientist that skin pigmentation is an evolutionary response to sunlight.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 07/06/2024 17:56:54    2550070

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Realists."
Like FF 70 years or so earlier, it all comes back to money and power over idealism. FF still call themselves the Republican party, they'd be as well join together FF/PSF, but then some of them might lose out on money and power. Not much difference between them when you filter out the time gap in them stepping away from armed struggle. Same dna.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2896 - 07/06/2024 20:31:29    2550088

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Replying To Viking66:  "Doing exactly the opposite in what way? And you still didn't answer the question I asked you earlier- what alternative policies could they pursue that would actually help bring about a 32 county Republic of Ireland?"
The opposite in that they were opposed to British rule in Ireland but now they run to the British treasury for funding and are helping run the six counties for the British state with other unionists.
What other policies? Not having a 25 year sectarian murder campaign for one thing was a policy that did not work or help bring about a united Ireland.
It helped get them into power though suppose that's what they saw in their 'long game' strategy.
Wasn't worth a drop of blood or an hour in jail. The people would have been better following Hume all along.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2896 - 07/06/2024 20:40:22    2550089

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The opposite in that they were opposed to British rule in Ireland but now they run to the British treasury for funding and are helping run the six counties for the British state with other unionists.
What other policies? Not having a 25 year sectarian murder campaign for one thing was a policy that did not work or help bring about a united Ireland.
It helped get them into power though suppose that's what they saw in their 'long game' strategy.
Wasn't worth a drop of blood or an hour in jail. The people would have been better following Hume all along."
If there had been no armed struggle life for nationalists in the North would be exactly the same as it was in the early 60s. The armed struggle was directly in response to the violent treatment of the civil rights movement. Best you study a bit of history. Maybe if you had of lived in a Nationalist area of Belfast at that time you would know how people felt there, and wouldn't be spouting the rubbish on here that you are now.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 07/06/2024 21:32:31    2550091

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The opposite in that they were opposed to British rule in Ireland but now they run to the British treasury for funding and are helping run the six counties for the British state with other unionists.
What other policies? Not having a 25 year sectarian murder campaign for one thing was a policy that did not work or help bring about a united Ireland.
It helped get them into power though suppose that's what they saw in their 'long game' strategy.
Wasn't worth a drop of blood or an hour in jail. The people would have been better following Hume all along."
If there had been no armed struggle life for nationalists in the North would be exactly the same as it was in the early 60s. The armed struggle was directly in response to the violent treatment of the civil rights movement. Best you study a bit of history. Maybe if you had of lived in a Nationalist area of Belfast at that time you would know how people felt there, and wouldn't be spouting the rubbish on here that you are now.
As regards a 25 year sectarian murder campaign you are again showing your ignorance of the facts. I lived in the Ardoyne area of North Belfast during the early 90s. I worked as a taxi driver in North and West Belfast to pay my way through Queens. There were several protestant families living in the street I lived in, and several more dotted around the area. Noone bothered these people. On the other hand there were no Catholic families living the other side of the wall in Alliance. I'm sure there were bigoted people in the PIRA, thankfully I didn't come across any of them. Most that I did were family men and were very decent people at an ordinary level who believed in the greater cause that they were fighting for. None of them were particularly well off, or any better off than their neighbours. Some had done life in prison for what they believed in. It was altogether a bad situation, dating back 300 odd years or more, it wasn't helped by the 26 counties accepting partition, and many bad deeds were done, but to describe it as "Not having a 25 year sectarian murder campaign for one thing was a policy that did not work or help bring about a united Ireland. It helped get them into power though suppose that's what they saw in their 'long game' strategy. Wasn't worth a drop of blood or an hour in jail." just shows your complete ignorance of what actually happened there, or the strength of feeling of people living there then and now. If things were as you say noone in the 6 counties would be voting for Sinn Fein.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 07/06/2024 21:51:58    2550096

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "The opposite in that they were opposed to British rule in Ireland but now they run to the British treasury for funding and are helping run the six counties for the British state with other unionists.
What other policies? Not having a 25 year sectarian murder campaign for one thing was a policy that did not work or help bring about a united Ireland.
It helped get them into power though suppose that's what they saw in their 'long game' strategy.
Wasn't worth a drop of blood or an hour in jail. The people would have been better following Hume all along."
Of course they would have been.
The GFA could be called the John Hume slAgreement.
And he never shot anyone, or planted bombs, or "executed" informers, or murdered Gardai.....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1709 - 07/06/2024 21:58:52    2550099

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Replying To Viking66:  "If there had been no armed struggle life for nationalists in the North would be exactly the same as it was in the early 60s. The armed struggle was directly in response to the violent treatment of the civil rights movement. Best you study a bit of history. Maybe if you had of lived in a Nationalist area of Belfast at that time you would know how people felt there, and wouldn't be spouting the rubbish on here that you are now."
What would you know about that in fairness? The IRA's objective was to force the British to leave Ireland.

They gave up. Brits still here and SF run by people who had nothing to do with anything other than spotting an opportunity.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2929 - 07/06/2024 23:48:39    2550114

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "What would you know about that in fairness? The IRA's objective was to force the British to leave Ireland.

They gave up. Brits still here and SF run by people who had nothing to do with anything other than spotting an opportunity."
I know plenty that I saw for myself with my own 2 eyes. I didn't hear about it down the pub, off the Internet or from a mate who was a teacher.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 08/06/2024 07:31:14    2550121

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "What would you know about that in fairness? The IRA's objective was to force the British to leave Ireland.

They gave up. Brits still here and SF run by people who had nothing to do with anything other than spotting an opportunity."
They gave up but had little options left in ways. They were heavily infiltrated by the British and were never going to win militarily. You then had huge pressure on the republican movement but also on the wider nationalist population from the British use of loyalist proxies in carrying out murder of Catholics. Added to that the strategy of bringing the war to England failed miserably by alienating most of the Irish immigrant community there and their relatives back home such was the backlash they received. Along with alienating those in Britain, mainly on the left, who were sympathetic to Irish independence. Libya also starting to come under pressure from the US as you come into the 90s, funds from America coming under scrutiny. It was going to be very difficult to sustain a successful insurgency with all of the above combined.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 972 - 08/06/2024 10:19:21    2550141

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Replying To Viking66:  "If there had been no armed struggle life for nationalists in the North would be exactly the same as it was in the early 60s. The armed struggle was directly in response to the violent treatment of the civil rights movement. Best you study a bit of history. Maybe if you had of lived in a Nationalist area of Belfast at that time you would know how people felt there, and wouldn't be spouting the rubbish on here that you are now."
I could write a book on it myself Viking, PSF were infiltrated and led by the nose by the British for decades, so many lives wasted on all sides, murder maiming and mayhem all for nothing
We will likely never know just how many in SF were 'turned'. I have my suspicion on a few senior figures though. Whatever the British had on them.
The whole thing was rotten inside and out and none of it has advanced the cause of a reunited Ireland, it's done the opposite in fact. Sf voters in the six counties may think it's great now having the 'First Minister' job' in reality they have accepted partition and the British schilling in the end.
If all it was about was obtaining catholic civil rights in the 6 counties then following John Hume all along was the answer.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2896 - 08/06/2024 13:38:17    2550166

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "I could write a book on it myself Viking, PSF were infiltrated and led by the nose by the British for decades, so many lives wasted on all sides, murder maiming and mayhem all for nothing
We will likely never know just how many in SF were 'turned'. I have my suspicion on a few senior figures though. Whatever the British had on them.
The whole thing was rotten inside and out and none of it has advanced the cause of a reunited Ireland, it's done the opposite in fact. Sf voters in the six counties may think it's great now having the 'First Minister' job' in reality they have accepted partition and the British schilling in the end.
If all it was about was obtaining catholic civil rights in the 6 counties then following John Hume all along was the answer."
Those lives were surely not wasted. There is a commitment now in place that when a majority in the 6 counties want a re-unified Ireland then that will be done. That commitment would never have been entertained by a British government if there had of been no armed struggle.
People of a Nationalist persuasion have fair representation in Stormont, which is another thing that wouldn't have been achieved by the civil rights movement by itself. Gerrymandering is something that the people of the 6 counties only have to read about in history books. There is far more equality of opportunity, employment, housing and education than there was before also. The PSNI while far from perfect is infinitely more even handed than the RUC were in the 1960s. Irish is now an official language in Northern Ireland. While most of these were objectives of the civil rights movement they wouldn't have been achieved if the Nationalist people in the 6 counties hadn't stood up for themselves.
Your posts are implying that the civil rights movement was something completely seperate to the republican movement. It was in the early to mid 60s, but the republican movement gained more and more popular support as a result of how the British State treated the civil rights movement. Many leaders of the civil rights movement, especially the younger ones, became the new leaders of the republican movement after the split in the IRA, as they were more militant than the older lads who were already in the IRA since the early 1960s and before. Most of these older lads formed the Official IRA after the split, while most of the younger lads who only came to prominence as members and then leaders of the civil rights movement in the late 60s went on to form the Provisional IRA. The PIRA experienced a huge growth in numbers directly as a consequence of British action towards the civil rights movement. The 2 movements, Republican and Civil Rights, were both pretty much led on the ground by the same younger lads at this stage. I think it's poor out of anyone to suggest that these lads were motivated by money or power, as they simply didn't have either. They were mainly motivated by anger and sadness. The whole bad situation snowballed from there.
As regards the Brits and infiltration they built a very large empire on the principle of divide and conquer. They were the masters of subterfuge since the middle ages. Like most world powers before and since. If anyone believes that they didn't have a good idea who thought what then they are incredibly naive. At the same time if they had the power to lead the Republican movement anywhere they wouldn't ever have conceded the prospect of a re-united Ireland in order to achieve a ceasefire and a longer lasting peace in the 6 counties.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 08/06/2024 14:43:51    2550172

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "I could write a book on it myself Viking, PSF were infiltrated and led by the nose by the British for decades, so many lives wasted on all sides, murder maiming and mayhem all for nothing
We will likely never know just how many in SF were 'turned'. I have my suspicion on a few senior figures though. Whatever the British had on them.
The whole thing was rotten inside and out and none of it has advanced the cause of a reunited Ireland, it's done the opposite in fact. Sf voters in the six counties may think it's great now having the 'First Minister' job' in reality they have accepted partition and the British schilling in the end.
If all it was about was obtaining catholic civil rights in the 6 counties then following John Hume all along was the answer."
Those lives were surely not wasted. There is a commitment now in place that when a majority in the 6 counties want a re-unified Ireland then that will be done. That commitment would never have been entertained by a British government if there had of been no armed struggle.
People of a Nationalist persuasion have fair representation in Stormont, which is another thing that wouldn't have been achieved by the civil rights movement by itself. Gerrymandering is something that the people of the 6 counties only have to read about in history books. There is far more equality of opportunity, employment, housing and education than there was before also. The PSNI while far from perfect is infinitely more even handed than the RUC were in the 1960s. Irish is now an official language in Northern Ireland. While most of these were objectives of the civil rights movement they wouldn't have been achieved if the Nationalist people in the 6 counties hadn't stood up for themselves.
Your posts are implying that the civil rights movement was something completely seperate to the republican movement. It was in the early to mid 60s, but the republican movement gained more and more popular support as a result of how the British State treated the civil rights movement. Many leaders of the civil rights movement, especially the younger ones, became the new leaders of the republican movement after the split in the IRA, as they were more militant than the older lads who were already in the IRA since the early 1960s and before. Most of these older lads formed the Official IRA after the split, while most of the younger lads who only came to prominence as members and then leaders of the civil rights movement in the late 60s went on to form the Provisional IRA. The PIRA experienced a huge growth in numbers directly as a consequence of British action towards the civil rights movement. The 2 movements, Republican and Civil Rights, were both pretty much led on the ground by the same younger lads at this stage. I think it's poor out of anyone to suggest that these lads were motivated by money or power, as they simply didn't have either. They were mainly motivated by anger and sadness. The whole bad situation snowballed from there.
As regards the Brits and infiltration they built a very large empire on the principle of divide and conquer. They were the masters of subterfuge since the middle ages. Like most world powers before and since. If anyone believes that they didn't have a good idea who thought what then they are incredibly naive. At the same time if they had the power to lead the Republican movement anywhere they wouldn't ever have conceded the prospect of a re-united Ireland in order to achieve a ceasefire and a longer lasting peace in the 6 counties.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 08/06/2024 14:45:37    2550173

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Replying To Viking66:  "Those lives were surely not wasted. There is a commitment now in place that when a majority in the 6 counties want a re-unified Ireland then that will be done. That commitment would never have been entertained by a British government if there had of been no armed struggle.
People of a Nationalist persuasion have fair representation in Stormont, which is another thing that wouldn't have been achieved by the civil rights movement by itself. Gerrymandering is something that the people of the 6 counties only have to read about in history books. There is far more equality of opportunity, employment, housing and education than there was before also. The PSNI while far from perfect is infinitely more even handed than the RUC were in the 1960s. Irish is now an official language in Northern Ireland. While most of these were objectives of the civil rights movement they wouldn't have been achieved if the Nationalist people in the 6 counties hadn't stood up for themselves.
Your posts are implying that the civil rights movement was something completely seperate to the republican movement. It was in the early to mid 60s, but the republican movement gained more and more popular support as a result of how the British State treated the civil rights movement. Many leaders of the civil rights movement, especially the younger ones, became the new leaders of the republican movement after the split in the IRA, as they were more militant than the older lads who were already in the IRA since the early 1960s and before. Most of these older lads formed the Official IRA after the split, while most of the younger lads who only came to prominence as members and then leaders of the civil rights movement in the late 60s went on to form the Provisional IRA. The PIRA experienced a huge growth in numbers directly as a consequence of British action towards the civil rights movement. The 2 movements, Republican and Civil Rights, were both pretty much led on the ground by the same younger lads at this stage. I think it's poor out of anyone to suggest that these lads were motivated by money or power, as they simply didn't have either. They were mainly motivated by anger and sadness. The whole bad situation snowballed from there.
As regards the Brits and infiltration they built a very large empire on the principle of divide and conquer. They were the masters of subterfuge since the middle ages. Like most world powers before and since. If anyone believes that they didn't have a good idea who thought what then they are incredibly naive. At the same time if they had the power to lead the Republican movement anywhere they wouldn't ever have conceded the prospect of a re-united Ireland in order to achieve a ceasefire and a longer lasting peace in the 6 counties."
A very good post Viking. I recall the days of discrimination against the Natinalist population of NI.
The civilians rights march in Derry, of 5th October 1968 was the day that kicked off the civil rights movement. A peaceful procession was memorable for a thug in RUC uniform dug his baton into a marcher. This coverage was shown on RTÉ. news that night, and around the world. It showed what a mess NI was, but the tide was unstoppable.
Today the situation is utterly changed for the better. A few diehard Unionists are still clinging to the old order, but their day is over.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1830 - 09/06/2024 13:27:01    2550301

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Replying To Viking66:  "Those lives were surely not wasted. There is a commitment now in place that when a majority in the 6 counties want a re-unified Ireland then that will be done. That commitment would never have been entertained by a British government if there had of been no armed struggle.
People of a Nationalist persuasion have fair representation in Stormont, which is another thing that wouldn't have been achieved by the civil rights movement by itself. Gerrymandering is something that the people of the 6 counties only have to read about in history books. There is far more equality of opportunity, employment, housing and education than there was before also. The PSNI while far from perfect is infinitely more even handed than the RUC were in the 1960s. Irish is now an official language in Northern Ireland. While most of these were objectives of the civil rights movement they wouldn't have been achieved if the Nationalist people in the 6 counties hadn't stood up for themselves.
Your posts are implying that the civil rights movement was something completely seperate to the republican movement. It was in the early to mid 60s, but the republican movement gained more and more popular support as a result of how the British State treated the civil rights movement. Many leaders of the civil rights movement, especially the younger ones, became the new leaders of the republican movement after the split in the IRA, as they were more militant than the older lads who were already in the IRA since the early 1960s and before. Most of these older lads formed the Official IRA after the split, while most of the younger lads who only came to prominence as members and then leaders of the civil rights movement in the late 60s went on to form the Provisional IRA. The PIRA experienced a huge growth in numbers directly as a consequence of British action towards the civil rights movement. The 2 movements, Republican and Civil Rights, were both pretty much led on the ground by the same younger lads at this stage. I think it's poor out of anyone to suggest that these lads were motivated by money or power, as they simply didn't have either. They were mainly motivated by anger and sadness. The whole bad situation snowballed from there.
As regards the Brits and infiltration they built a very large empire on the principle of divide and conquer. They were the masters of subterfuge since the middle ages. Like most world powers before and since. If anyone believes that they didn't have a good idea who thought what then they are incredibly naive. At the same time if they had the power to lead the Republican movement anywhere they wouldn't ever have conceded the prospect of a re-united Ireland in order to achieve a ceasefire and a longer lasting peace in the 6 counties."
Interesting post and fair play for writing it but could you next time have some paragraphs as difficult to read in one big block or could the mods edit the post.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3575 - 09/06/2024 13:56:28    2550312

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Interesting post and fair play for writing it but could you next time have some paragraphs as difficult to read in one big block or could the mods edit the post."
You do know what a paragraph is, right?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 09/06/2024 14:26:59    2550318

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Interesting post and fair play for writing it but could you next time have some paragraphs as difficult to read in one big block or could the mods edit the post."
It's in 5 paragraphs as it is Killingfields.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 09/06/2024 14:50:38    2550322

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's in 5 paragraphs as it is Killingfields."
Sorry should have said

You should have separated it out more as it's difficult to read especially on mobile site.

Space out your paragraphs. Makes post easier to read

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3575 - 09/06/2024 16:02:00    2550346

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Sorry should have said

You should have separated it out more as it's difficult to read especially on mobile site.

Space out your paragraphs. Makes post easier to read"
Ah ok. Doyler does that too. Probably is easier to read ok.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13041 - 09/06/2024 18:27:47    2550382

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Replying To cavanman47:  "You do know what a paragraph is, right?"
As said already should have clarified my post.

I meant spread the paragraphs out more. Makes posts easier to read if spread out more

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3575 - 09/06/2024 19:09:28    2550391

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "The good ship Government…. Holed well below the water line and sinking fast… All starting to jump overboard and fleeing the mess they created…"
You still believe this?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5082 - 10/06/2024 14:56:39    2550589

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