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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Very good news that Ireland along with Spain and Norway will formally recognise the State of Palestine. A long overdue move and very important in the context of daily Israeli savagery in Gaza. The Irish Government should also cut diplomatic relations with Israel and close down American and British companies in Ireland as punishment for co-sponsoring this evil."
Did you by any chance study at the "Liz Truss School of Economics".

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 294 - 24/05/2024 09:50:44    2546748

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Replying To Viking66:  "So principles are OK once they don't cost money?"
On what principle would you, in good conscience, send 1000s of adults into unemployment and their children into poverty?

The vast majority of (if not all) US companies present in Ireland are public companies with shares owned by people from all over the world. What kind of statement are you making by expelling them?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5075 - 24/05/2024 12:26:37    2546804

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Replying To tireoghainabu:  "Did you by any chance study at the "Liz Truss School of Economics"."
It would be folly to cut off ties with Israel, do you cut ties with Russia over its Ukraine invasion?. The high tech companies are a vital part of the Irish economy, who would replace them, and what about potential job losses?
I am going against the trend by saying that in my opinion, it was the wrong decision to recognise a Palestinian state at the moment. I do not condone the Israeli attack in the Gaza Strip, and the kllling of innocent civilians of all ages, and the restrictions on food and other aid entering Gaza through Rafah, and other centres. The solution is a two state creation achieved through talks. While Nethanayu is in power that will not happen.
There are two Palestinian states, The West Bank run by the Palestine Authority, and the Gaza Strip where Hamas are in power. Hamas is a terrorist group determined to destroy Israel and possibly other states.
They launched the massacre on 7th October causing an Israeli response , which is excessive, as we can see every day.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1820 - 24/05/2024 12:35:31    2546807

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Replying To thelongridge:  "It would be folly to cut off ties with Israel, do you cut ties with Russia over its Ukraine invasion?. The high tech companies are a vital part of the Irish economy, who would replace them, and what about potential job losses?
I am going against the trend by saying that in my opinion, it was the wrong decision to recognise a Palestinian state at the moment. I do not condone the Israeli attack in the Gaza Strip, and the kllling of innocent civilians of all ages, and the restrictions on food and other aid entering Gaza through Rafah, and other centres. The solution is a two state creation achieved through talks. While Nethanayu is in power that will not happen.
There are two Palestinian states, The West Bank run by the Palestine Authority, and the Gaza Strip where Hamas are in power. Hamas is a terrorist group determined to destroy Israel and possibly other states.
They launched the massacre on 7th October causing an Israeli response , which is excessive, as we can see every day."
The 7th October attack, while horrific, wasn't the start of this conflict.
It was one part of it and was in retaliation to the decades of horrific and relentless attacks by Israel on the Palestinian population.

If October 7th didn't happen, Israel would still be doing what they're doing, it would just take longer. They started 70 years ago and have made consistent 'progress' ever since.
Now, they believe (or at least are happy to say they believe) they have justification for continuing their attacks.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5075 - 24/05/2024 13:57:00    2546828

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Replying To cavanman47:  "The 7th October attack, while horrific, wasn't the start of this conflict.
It was one part of it and was in retaliation to the decades of horrific and relentless attacks by Israel on the Palestinian population.

If October 7th didn't happen, Israel would still be doing what they're doing, it would just take longer. They started 70 years ago and have made consistent 'progress' ever since.
Now, they believe (or at least are happy to say they believe) they have justification for continuing their attacks."
Absolutely, spot on. Excellent post. This is an unforgiving war, unforgiving wars never end.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2950 - 24/05/2024 14:43:53    2546838

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Replying To cavanman47:  "The 7th October attack, while horrific, wasn't the start of this conflict.
It was one part of it and was in retaliation to the decades of horrific and relentless attacks by Israel on the Palestinian population.

If October 7th didn't happen, Israel would still be doing what they're doing, it would just take longer. They started 70 years ago and have made consistent 'progress' ever since.
Now, they believe (or at least are happy to say they believe) they have justification for continuing their attacks."
Think you will find the Arabs were the ones who rejected the 2 state plan back in the 40s.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 24/05/2024 15:06:22    2546853

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Replying To cavanman47:  "On what principle would you, in good conscience, send 1000s of adults into unemployment and their children into poverty?

The vast majority of (if not all) US companies present in Ireland are public companies with shares owned by people from all over the world. What kind of statement are you making by expelling them?"
I'm not into expelling them. I just put up that post because from reading the thread there's plenty of people posting on it who would sell any principles they think they ought to have if it came to it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 24/05/2024 15:08:39    2546854

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Replying To Viking66:  "Think you will find the Arabs were the ones who rejected the 2 state plan back in the 40s."
In 1947 the Israelis (mostly European) were given 2 thirds of the land despite making up only one third of the population at the expense of the native Palestinians (The Jewish population was even less than 10% at the time of the Balfour Declaration 30 years previously). At that time it was a terrible injustice so no surprise the Arab population would reject it. Since then they have illegally taken more of it and created two little rumps of land for the Palestinians which they probably didn't forsee in the 1940s. This happened in a supposedly enlightened modern world and was supported by the supposed champions of freedom and democracy the US and a number of European nations. What has happended to the Palestinians over the past 80 years is nothing short of horrific. Just because the Jewish people were mass murdered does not mean the Palestinians had to pay such a price despite having nothing to do with the Holocaust.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 955 - 24/05/2024 15:22:09    2546860

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Replying To Viking66:  "Think you will find the Arabs were the ones who rejected the 2 state plan back in the 40s."
This is like saying why didn't we accept our lot after the Tudor and Cromwellian conquests and colonisations. It took Ireland 400 years to get to peace after forced dispossession and colonisation. What happended Ireland in the 1500-1600s has happened to Palestinians in living memory.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 955 - 24/05/2024 15:27:06    2546863

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "This is like saying why didn't we accept our lot after the Tudor and Cromwellian conquests and colonisations. It took Ireland 400 years to get to peace after forced dispossession and colonisation. What happended Ireland in the 1500-1600s has happened to Palestinians in living memory."
The Tudors and Cromwell were from a different country. The problem in that area is they are all from the same little patch of desert. We'll, even that isn't strictly true, a good few of the Palestinians and Israelis who are living in that area now are descended from people who didn't even live there in the 1930s. Yes they can all trace their ancestry back to 100s or 1000s of years ago, but that's another part of the problem.
Bottom line is this, whats going on there since long before my time is inexcusable. But how can you have a solution when the 2 sides have absolutely no trust in eachother? Since the end of WW2 some of the Arab States joined forces to wipe the Israelis out, when it turned out they weren't able to defeat them in open battle the Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians supported a Palestinian resistance movement. There's been tit for tat stuff going on continuously since then. Most of the other Arab states don't want the Palestinians there because they have tried to destabilise them.
Because the land is so poor in Israel/Palestine, unless irrigated and reclaimed, people have always left there to live in neighbouring countries. The 1922 census of Palestine listed 1612 Palestinians as living on Egypt for example. 614 Muslims, 756 Jews, and 242 Christians.
Even if you look at the make up of Israels current population, a fairly large percentage of them are Muslims.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 24/05/2024 16:27:32    2546873

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "In 1947 the Israelis (mostly European) were given 2 thirds of the land despite making up only one third of the population at the expense of the native Palestinians (The Jewish population was even less than 10% at the time of the Balfour Declaration 30 years previously). At that time it was a terrible injustice so no surprise the Arab population would reject it. Since then they have illegally taken more of it and created two little rumps of land for the Palestinians which they probably didn't forsee in the 1940s. This happened in a supposedly enlightened modern world and was supported by the supposed champions of freedom and democracy the US and a number of European nations. What has happended to the Palestinians over the past 80 years is nothing short of horrific. Just because the Jewish people were mass murdered does not mean the Palestinians had to pay such a price despite having nothing to do with the Holocaust."
They didn't accept the 2 state plan not because they wanted a bigger State, but because they felt the Jews shouldn't have a state at all. Also most of the Israeli Jewish population aren't European Jews at all, most went back there from various Muslim countries in the Middle East and North Africa. Up or down the problems aren't going to be solved by looking backwards. Both sides have been guilty of atrocities, and both sides do come from that area, or at least a percentage of them do. But neither trust one another. Pretty hard to come up with a solution to that kind of mess.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 24/05/2024 17:31:33    2546879

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Replying To cavanman47:  "The 7th October attack, while horrific, wasn't the start of this conflict.
It was one part of it and was in retaliation to the decades of horrific and relentless attacks by Israel on the Palestinian population.

If October 7th didn't happen, Israel would still be doing what they're doing, it would just take longer. They started 70 years ago and have made consistent 'progress' ever since.
Now, they believe (or at least are happy to say they believe) they have justification for continuing their attacks."
But those decades of Israeli attacks were in response to Arab/Palestinian attacks over the same decades. That's the problem.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 24/05/2024 17:32:57    2546880

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Replying To Viking66:  "I'm not into expelling them. I just put up that post because from reading the thread there's plenty of people posting on it who would sell any principles they think they ought to have if it came to it."
So if you were employed by an American company you'd quit your job?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1842 - 24/05/2024 17:51:07    2546881

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Replying To Viking66:  "I'm not into expelling them. I just put up that post because from reading the thread there's plenty of people posting on it who would sell any principles they think they ought to have if it came to it."
My principles are paying my mortgage and supporting my family.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11322 - 24/05/2024 21:55:48    2546893

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Replying To Viking66:  "So principles are OK once they don't cost money?"
I work for a US owned company. I make no apologies for that. Should I quit my job and foreclose on my mortgage? Maybe I can get a free tent from the government.

What about the thousands employed in Intel here…strong links to Israel with their facility over there. Should all 6,000 employees walk out?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11322 - 24/05/2024 21:58:01    2546894

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Replying To yew_tree:  "My principles are paying my mortgage and supporting my family."
While I appreciate where your priorities are, that's exactly the attitude that's allowed this country to arrive at the horrific state we now see it.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2925 - 25/05/2024 07:59:41    2546900

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Replying To Viking66:  "But those decades of Israeli attacks were in response to Arab/Palestinian attacks over the same decades. That's the problem."
I'd have thought better of you.

What's currently going on in the middle East is just another example of the British carving up territory and leaving chaos in their wake.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2925 - 25/05/2024 08:01:04    2546901

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I'd have thought better of you.

What's currently going on in the middle East is just another example of the British carving up territory and leaving chaos in their wake."
Yes I posted that on this forum a long time ago. The British are responsible for many bad situations around the world, including the current situation on our own island.
But since the 1940s there have been tit for tat wars and reprisals and other attacks pretty continuously in Palestine/Israel. 1967 and 1973 obviously being the major wars since 1948. This is why the Israeli govenment mindset is as it is. Its worth bearing in mind that Netanyahus party only got a little over 30% of the vote in the last Israeli election. Its also worth bearing in mind that Hamas have refused to hold any elections since 2007 when they came to power in Gaza. Another thing to consider is that had the Israelis not won in 1967 there would be no Palestinian territories in West Bank or Gaza as they would still be ruled by Jordan and Egypt. Finally another thing to bear in mind is that the type of Muslim state the Palestinians want would mean there would be no Christians or Jews tolerated at all. These are all some of the problems in that area, and unless there is a massive change in both sides thinking these are insurmountable problems.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12947 - 25/05/2024 09:58:20    2546918

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Replying To Viking66:  "Yes I posted that on this forum a long time ago. The British are responsible for many bad situations around the world, including the current situation on our own island.
But since the 1940s there have been tit for tat wars and reprisals and other attacks pretty continuously in Palestine/Israel. 1967 and 1973 obviously being the major wars since 1948. This is why the Israeli govenment mindset is as it is. Its worth bearing in mind that Netanyahus party only got a little over 30% of the vote in the last Israeli election. Its also worth bearing in mind that Hamas have refused to hold any elections since 2007 when they came to power in Gaza. Another thing to consider is that had the Israelis not won in 1967 there would be no Palestinian territories in West Bank or Gaza as they would still be ruled by Jordan and Egypt. Finally another thing to bear in mind is that the type of Muslim state the Palestinians want would mean there would be no Christians or Jews tolerated at all. These are all some of the problems in that area, and unless there is a massive change in both sides thinking these are insurmountable problems."
When did the Palestinians say they wanted a Muslim theocratic State like Iran, Afghanistan etc

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1681 - 25/05/2024 10:23:28    2546926

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Lots of hypocrisy on all sides. Few here ever mention the genocide of the Muslim Uyghurs in China, or indeed the ongoing 70 years of genocide in Tibet. Not to mention the corruption and repression in both of the rival Palestinian states.

On other hand, Israeli response to the Hamas attacks has been completely disproportionate and is clear case of punishing civilian populations. A lot of it is driven by "settlers" from United States who have as much right to take someone's olive grove as I would to turn up mob handed and steal someone's vineyard in France. All based on absurd ancestral claim to land their ancestors left probably a 1,000 years ago.

Given the lunatics on both sides this is unlikely to end well. Especially for the innocent civilians unfortunate enough to be living in hellholes like Rafah. A hellhole no doubt before the bombs, but they hardly improve matters.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2918 - 25/05/2024 10:31:38    2546931

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