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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Thankfully there aren't any who look likely to form an official political party & challenge the status quo anytime soon. But maybe that's what they said in Holland once upon a time as well and look who they've just elected.

We simply can't be blasé about it. The Internet is such a powerful tool for those who want to stir things up. I don't want to come across as some sort of tin hat wearing conspiracy theorist. But it's very easy to go down a rabbit hole online & find any amount of "facts" which would validate even the most of extreme views, no matter how preposterous they would seem to most level headed people."
There is only one side concealing the truth in this. The Dutch chose by the way two main parties who represent people who have had enough of what their rulers were turning their country into.

Of course, we have to follow the same path when the lessons are there already.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 25/11/2023 13:53:33    2514560

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You don't deserve to be shot for looting a store but you do deserve a hammering though.

Few years ago I was at a boxing match in NYC and a few Irish lads caused some trouble outside the venue. It was not long before they were slammed to the ground and thrown into a police van. Visible policing is the key here and a justice system that will impose proper sentences.

Ireland is not serious on law and order and it's not just Dublin. Every city and town is the same. My local town ain't what is once was. Gang of youths free to do what they want.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11216 - 25/11/2023 14:14:26    2514564

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Replying To bruffgael:  "Maybe so. But they are still getting welfare of some sort it's fair to say. Otherwise they would be starving."
Most of the u25s still live at home with their parents unless they have kids. U18s get no welfare. 18-25 year olds get a little over 100 euro a week. Most aren't eating like most of us do either btw.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11218 - 25/11/2023 14:58:33    2514568

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Replying To MesAmis:  "It might shock you but the majority of people in or around the North Inner City are working. A huge proportion of people living in the North Inner City are immigrants or country people.

The notion that everyone turns 18 and gets a free gaf beside their Ma's house is such middle class lads in a pub BS.

Hundreds of thousands of people walk around those streets in completely safety every single day.

It is easier for kids from middle and upper class backgrounds to get on in life, that is undeniable. That doesn't excuse the criminality that exists to a larger extent in some areas but again to try and pretend that these lads just have to work as hard as the middle class lad from Leitrim to get to the same level is ludicrous."
The names of the people charged show that firstly they are not just inner city, and secondly that there are a fair few "new Irish" among them,

Which sort of undermines the narrative

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 25/11/2023 15:29:31    2514572

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Replying To yew_tree:  "You don't deserve to be shot for looting a store but you do deserve a hammering though.

Few years ago I was at a boxing match in NYC and a few Irish lads caused some trouble outside the venue. It was not long before they were slammed to the ground and thrown into a police van. Visible policing is the key here and a justice system that will impose proper sentences.

Ireland is not serious on law and order and it's not just Dublin. Every city and town is the same. My local town ain't what is once was. Gang of youths free to do what they want."
There is no deterrent for a lot of these trouble makers. A lot of people from poor backgrounds can get on in life, without turning to loutish behaviour.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1693 - 25/11/2023 19:23:44    2514590

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Time for the government to get their finger out and arm the Garda to the hilt…. These toe rags have no fear of the Garda in their current form as they pose them no real threat… If a couple of the thugs had a bullet put in them last night the rest wouldn't be long fleeing home afraid of their lives… Sending Guards into a situation like that armed with nothing but a baton is a complete waste of time and not fair on them or their families… Is it any wonder Garda are leaving the force in their droves… Who in their right minds would put themselves in these situations with the type of mindless thugs that are roaming our streets at present…. Time to take action… Wakey up gomeless Government…!!!"
The guards don't want to be armed. It would be a bloodbath and take things to a whole new level.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2540 - 25/11/2023 23:57:08    2514607

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "The ordinary decent folk of the North Inner City are as genuine a people as you could meet mo chara.

There is no doubt that there is a sinister right-wing element festering away, not just in Ireland. They have a big problem with it in the UK, and unfortunately in other EU countries rightwing parties have made grounds in Italy, Holland and Slovakia.

But it's not just that. As you say last night's events can't solely be blamed on the far right though. A good proportion of them would also appear to adhere to the ideology of just being a ****."
Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 2540 - 26/11/2023 00:07:14    2514609

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late."
Spot on Doylerwex.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11218 - 26/11/2023 11:01:06    2514618

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late."
This is an intelligent post with very reasonable sentiments. Only problem is that if you had the audacity to suggest we need any sort of control, let alone immigration control to the Irish government you're immediately dismissed as "Far Right"...
it's utterly insulting..

By all means support people from other countries fleeing persecution but question whether we're at breaking point and The attitude of Government in Ireland seems to be shut up and put up with it..

I have a daughter in college who told me recently she's convinced she'll have to emigrate when she's finished as she doesn't see a future for herself here.. The cost of living,, of ever having her own home is beyond her.
its just heartbreaking to consider.. So I'm angry, disillusioned with the state of things and tired of elected representatives treating any sort of concerns with contempt...

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 1041 - 26/11/2023 12:11:54    2514622

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People can voice their concerns in many ways but looting pillaging burning buses and Public transport is not only the height of stupidity and ignorance but its totally unpatriotic.The fools and scumbags that were invoved in that cowardly thuggery dont even care about people persais.The majority of the rioters were Irish claiming lets take back our country.Yes the country is a shambles but those scumbags just want everything for nothing.I know people that grew up in the inner city and some are friends of mine.Good decent hard working people and they are disgusted with the carryon of the rioters.Many of those idiots dont want to work and see some of their criminal friends driving big cars with rolex watches etc and look on the working people as fools.Also the Guards are in an awful situation in if they starting using force the do gooders are screaming and shouting of Garda brutality.Yes the Government let too many foreigners in unchecked and if foreigners commit crime they should be deported.However Ireland has benefitted from many foreigners too in medicine work and sport etc.As an earlier poster stated it was a foreigner that stopped the thug doing more damage with his knife.Yes we have problems in Ireland but one thing for sure is those low life scumbags that caused all the aggro in our Capital city wont solve anything anyway.They will probably all get free legal aid too.Hopefully the full force of the law is thrown at them.Scum!

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3616 - 26/11/2023 18:10:08    2514637

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late."
We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late.

Who is going to build them and where?

December 1985 unemployment rate of 17.30% today 4.1% In 2021 we had the 3rd highest income by employee in the EU. By any economic measure - the country is now better off than it has ever been. So why is our society crumbling before our eyes?

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1770 - 26/11/2023 21:05:24    2514648

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "People can voice their concerns in many ways but looting pillaging burning buses and Public transport is not only the height of stupidity and ignorance but its totally unpatriotic.The fools and scumbags that were invoved in that cowardly thuggery dont even care about people persais.The majority of the rioters were Irish claiming lets take back our country.Yes the country is a shambles but those scumbags just want everything for nothing.I know people that grew up in the inner city and some are friends of mine.Good decent hard working people and they are disgusted with the carryon of the rioters.Many of those idiots dont want to work and see some of their criminal friends driving big cars with rolex watches etc and look on the working people as fools.Also the Guards are in an awful situation in if they starting using force the do gooders are screaming and shouting of Garda brutality.Yes the Government let too many foreigners in unchecked and if foreigners commit crime they should be deported.However Ireland has benefitted from many foreigners too in medicine work and sport etc.As an earlier poster stated it was a foreigner that stopped the thug doing more damage with his knife.Yes we have problems in Ireland but one thing for sure is those low life scumbags that caused all the aggro in our Capital city wont solve anything anyway.They will probably all get free legal aid too.Hopefully the full force of the law is thrown at them.Scum!"
No, the man who first intervened was not a foreigner, he was an Irish man from wicklow, and the medias decision to almost completely ignore him is totally wrong.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1621 - 26/11/2023 21:50:43    2514652

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late."
Brilliant post. Spot on.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1621 - 26/11/2023 21:51:31    2514653

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "People can voice their concerns in many ways but looting pillaging burning buses and Public transport is not only the height of stupidity and ignorance but its totally unpatriotic.The fools and scumbags that were invoved in that cowardly thuggery dont even care about people persais.The majority of the rioters were Irish claiming lets take back our country.Yes the country is a shambles but those scumbags just want everything for nothing.I know people that grew up in the inner city and some are friends of mine.Good decent hard working people and they are disgusted with the carryon of the rioters.Many of those idiots dont want to work and see some of their criminal friends driving big cars with rolex watches etc and look on the working people as fools.Also the Guards are in an awful situation in if they starting using force the do gooders are screaming and shouting of Garda brutality.Yes the Government let too many foreigners in unchecked and if foreigners commit crime they should be deported.However Ireland has benefitted from many foreigners too in medicine work and sport etc.As an earlier poster stated it was a foreigner that stopped the thug doing more damage with his knife.Yes we have problems in Ireland but one thing for sure is those low life scumbags that caused all the aggro in our Capital city wont solve anything anyway.They will probably all get free legal aid too.Hopefully the full force of the law is thrown at them.Scum!"
There is no excuse for rioting and looting. There is no political contents, just oportunists taking advantage. It is illustration of how fragile social order is.

Seems too that the attacker according to media today was given a deportation order 20 years ago! Still here. Same as you were referring to about free legal aid.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 26/11/2023 22:55:48    2514662

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "Why is that happening though?

There's serious unrest because legitimate concerns have been ignored for 20 years.

People can't get a gp, a school place or a home and the government is completely ignoring it.

What happened in Dublin was inexcusable. Opportunistic criminals jumping on a chance to cause havoc.

However, we need to have a serious conversation about the social problems that created these people.

I believe we should help where we can, but we cannot ignore the fact that our society is crumbling in front of our eyes.

Immigrants aren't the issue. A lack of controls is part of it. But it's very easy to win disillusioned people over by offering a simple solution to their problems.

What we're seeing is exactly the kind of thing that happened all across Europe in the 30s.

We need to undertake massive social housing and infrastructure projects on a scale we've never seen before it's too late."
I agree with a lot of that. Housing has been an issue in this country for as long as I can remember. To the point where you'd have to question if the political will is there to actually sort it? A lot of landlords calling the shots which is ironic given our history when all was blamed on the nefarious British.

There's no doubt that societal issues lead to disillusionment and extreme views promising quick fixes are as old as time.
But no matter what the issues are, it doesn't excuse the carry-on we all saw in Dublin on Thursday night. Hopefully those identfied and charged will get their comeuppance.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9021 - 27/11/2023 09:45:54    2514679

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There is no excuse for rioting and looting. There is no political contents, just oportunists taking advantage. It is illustration of how fragile social order is.

Seems too that the attacker according to media today was given a deportation order 20 years ago! Still here. Same as you were referring to about free legal aid."
Isn't the alleged stabber an Irish Citizen?
Can an Irish citizen be deported nowadays.
1 Irish citizen was deported in the 1930s- Jimmy Gralton from Leitrim.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1278 - 27/11/2023 10:15:23    2514683

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Maybe we should send all of our undesirables to Rwanda. :P

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9021 - 27/11/2023 10:42:18    2514689

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Isn't the alleged stabber an Irish Citizen?
Can an Irish citizen be deported nowadays.
1 Irish citizen was deported in the 1930s- Jimmy Gralton from Leitrim."
He was granted citizenship after he beat an appeal against deportation. Of course he cannot be deported now! Too late.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 27/11/2023 10:52:03    2514692

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Isn't the alleged stabber an Irish Citizen?
Can an Irish citizen be deported nowadays.
1 Irish citizen was deported in the 1930s- Jimmy Gralton from Leitrim."
He is now, but I'm assuming the point is that the order (if true) was from before he became a citizen.
One thing I find about about last Thursday, is the prevalence of simple narratives again from all sides. Everyone in a rush to paint a picture of the issue and focus on certain elements to make it align with whatever their view is.
It's beyond tiresome, stifles any real debate on issues and only leads to more polarisation. It basically treats people like idiots and you end up getting more and more of them, as we've seen in other countries.
Can we not just sit down and have a reasoned discussion on the multitude of issues involved in last Thursday's awful incidents?
That's a rhetorical question by the way, as I already know the answer.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1994 - 27/11/2023 10:52:28    2514693

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There is no excuse for rioting and looting. There is no political contents, just oportunists taking advantage. It is illustration of how fragile social order is.

Seems too that the attacker according to media today was given a deportation order 20 years ago! Still here. Same as you were referring to about free legal aid."
Yes Barney.I heard too about his deportation order but was let stay.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3616 - 27/11/2023 11:27:41    2514701

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