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Replying To KillingFields:  "some final
amazing game that had everything"
France beat New Zealand.
New Zealand beat Ireland.
Ireland beat South Africa.
South Africa beat France.
Nothing in it between those four teams. The reality is that any one of them could have won it and Ireland, France and New Zealand will all have major regrets.
Fair play to South Africa in winning their last three games by 1 point. Took some doing but they somehow found a way to win.

letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 443 - 29/10/2023 09:30:44    2510801

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Replying To Viking66:  "If you think that is why the 6 county "state" was formed Barney I'm frankly amazed. I don't think a border poll would succeed right now, but I'd be hopeful that it might in the future as the generations follow one after the other up there. The entrenched bitterness is waning year on year, as the more bigoted generations die out. And socially and economically the South isn't being seen as some 3rd world country attached to Europe as it used to be by many on both sides of the divide up North. The demise of the role the Catholic Church has had since semi independence in the governing of the 26 counties has certainly helped in that regard also."
I agree with what you say Viking but the one thing that will keep that division alive is the dominance of SF in NI within the Nationalist community. They have reinvented their storyline to make it seem as if that everything the Nationalists now enjoy came about by the armed struggle, as long as they continue to play that card then the bitterness on the other side will live on and some day may lead others to believe that violence is the only way to achieve their aims.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1770 - 29/10/2023 09:34:55    2510802

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Thought the occasion got to the referee. Gave SA 3points for nothing, and admitted it a minute later. Missed 2 basic knockons, and had to disallow a try off the back of one of them. Then to balance up the 'roll if the dice' that seemed to be screwing NZ all night, he allows a NZ try where the final offload that Barrett picked up went at least a yard forward. A shambles.

The final confirmed that Ireland and France were very close to the standard required to win it out, and England obviously came very close to toppling SA as well."
In fairness that's why there's a TMO. I personally don't like Barnes style, but he is a good ref. Any ref in any sport will have done a decent enough job if they only missed a half dozen things.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 29/10/2023 10:10:31    2510805

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  ""Amazing"…. it had 1 try and a multitude of TMO reviews that destroyed the game… along with a red card that never should have been.. SA did the very same and no red… A rubbish sport and thank goodness it's over…"
The red card was a nailed on red. Shoulder direct to the head. Is in football and hurling too if spotted. The 2nd one he goes in lower and his head glances off the ball and then upwards. Still a yellow but not a red. By your post you obviously aren't really into rugby and don't really know the rules.
Firstly why did you watch it, and secondly why did you post about it?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 29/10/2023 10:12:59    2510806

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The 6 counties was artificially created to ensure a pro British majority. did i miss something?

That majority still exists and it will exist for another while yet."
That's exactly it. Wasn't what I picked up from your post I misunderstood it sorry Barney.
But things change over time. More and more people, from business people to young people, from a Protestant background are becoming less anti the idea of a united Ireland of some sort.
And likewise Catholics who didn't want a united Ireland because they either felt sold out by the 26 counties or because they were worried about the economic implications are gradually changing their minds too.
Brexit has been an influence on all these people also. The bottom line that most Republicans have come to realise is that to get a majority of people in the North to agree to some form of united Ireland it's going to take some people from a Protestant background to agree to it also. Obviously Sammy and his ilk are never going to, but then they aren't going to live forever either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 29/10/2023 10:23:31    2510808

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Replying To zinny:  "I agree with what you say Viking but the one thing that will keep that division alive is the dominance of SF in NI within the Nationalist community. They have reinvented their storyline to make it seem as if that everything the Nationalists now enjoy came about by the armed struggle, as long as they continue to play that card then the bitterness on the other side will live on and some day may lead others to believe that violence is the only way to achieve their aims."
I think you have got that the wrong way around Zinny. I think SF are so popular in the North because they are seen to have realised that the armed struggle brought the situation as far as it could, but that it was never going to achieve its aims altogether. Canary Wharf and the multi millions it cost the British state finally convinced the British government that they really didn't want to stay in the North longterm. But a successful transition to a united Ireland will need more than just that.
If a united Ireland is forced on the majority against the majority's wishes it would lead to a never ending cycle of violence. If the majority support it, and loyalist paramilitaries don't have widespread support in the community, then their effectiveness would be reduced, rather like the RIRAs currently.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 29/10/2023 10:35:41    2510810

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  ""Amazing"…. it had 1 try and a multitude of TMO reviews that destroyed the game… along with a red card that never should have been.. SA did the very same and no red… A rubbish sport and thank goodness it's over…"
That was a certain red card, I'm no expert on Rugby but even before the replay's I taught that tackle was dodgy, players know that compared to 10 years ago there's less tolerance for high tackles due to concerns around concussion.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1503 - 29/10/2023 10:48:40    2510815

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A big game where Wayne Barnes is being discussed about as much as the match itself. Nothing changes.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7777 - 29/10/2023 11:00:41    2510817

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "Thought the occasion got to the referee. Gave SA 3points for nothing, and admitted it a minute later. Missed 2 basic knockons, and had to disallow a try off the back of one of them. Then to balance up the 'roll if the dice' that seemed to be screwing NZ all night, he allows a NZ try where the final offload that Barrett picked up went at least a yard forward. A shambles.

The final confirmed that Ireland and France were very close to the standard required to win it out, and England obviously came very close to toppling SA as well."
Barnes was super. dont think occasion got to him at all. He admitted a mistake. shows great self awareness etc to do that in biggest game in the sport.
Refs will always miss some incidents. impossible not to.
I dont think he screwed New Zealand at all. Final NZ try was perfectly legal through the laws

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3451 - 29/10/2023 11:03:56    2510818

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Replying To letsgetgoing:  "France beat New Zealand.
New Zealand beat Ireland.
Ireland beat South Africa.
South Africa beat France.
Nothing in it between those four teams. The reality is that any one of them could have won it and Ireland, France and New Zealand will all have major regrets.
Fair play to South Africa in winning their last three games by 1 point. Took some doing but they somehow found a way to win."
I tipped New Zealand to win before the final. South Africa got a narrow victory over 14 man All Blacks side. Wayne Barnes may not be popular in NZ.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1693 - 29/10/2023 12:34:57    2510829

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Replying To zinny:  "I agree with what you say Viking but the one thing that will keep that division alive is the dominance of SF in NI within the Nationalist community. They have reinvented their storyline to make it seem as if that everything the Nationalists now enjoy came about by the armed struggle, as long as they continue to play that card then the bitterness on the other side will live on and some day may lead others to believe that violence is the only way to achieve their aims."
Unionists have achieved their aim: to keep 6 counties in the union, The hint is in the name. Just as the terms republican and nationalist indicate the failure on our side.

Of course there are bigots who don't like idea of former Catholics running the place, but Brits never cared about that! Look at the Civil War.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 2414 - 29/10/2023 13:07:23    2510831

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Replying To zinny:  "I agree with what you say Viking but the one thing that will keep that division alive is the dominance of SF in NI within the Nationalist community. They have reinvented their storyline to make it seem as if that everything the Nationalists now enjoy came about by the armed struggle, as long as they continue to play that card then the bitterness on the other side will live on and some day may lead others to believe that violence is the only way to achieve their aims."
Some quite simplistic analysis here on many posts.
When the full history of what is known as 'The Troubles' is written it may enlighten those with an open mind and who are prepared to listen and learn. What is clear is, the British Government's recently introduced legislation is designed to avoid facts being being made public through Legal remedies, Inquests, Civil and criminal cases, and hide their culpability rather than their false narrative of 'Reconciliation'. Settlement of Ballymurphy, The Miami Showband and Patrick Campbell cases exposes the Govt's strategy around the Legislation. There are dozens of similar cases that are in the pipeline.

The Good Friday Agreement, which was opposed by many within Unionism, gave Nationalists, for want of a better phrase, a new found confidence in who they are. They are a young, confident, progressive group who want to see a 1 nation based on equality and humanity. They have aspirations of jobs, housing, health and a healthy climate. They are proud and confident of their culture with the GAA being central to it, not to antagonize their neighbours' but because they live it, respect it and understand its value.

I do not see the characterisation of what you describe of people deferring to the armed struggle for having achieved this. Many know little of the the troubles and thankfully did not experience the horror. They do however understand injustice and will use democratic means to oppose it.

What their neighbours feel about their identity, Europe and their place in the World is playing out.
It is certain, as anything can be, that there will be no going back to inequality.

Glensboy (Antrim) - Posts: 284 - 29/10/2023 13:47:52    2510837

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Barnes was super. dont think occasion got to him at all. He admitted a mistake. shows great self awareness etc to do that in biggest game in the sport.
Refs will always miss some incidents. impossible not to.
I dont think he screwed New Zealand at all. Final NZ try was perfectly legal through the laws"
I don't believe it was legal through the laws, but was possibly permitted due to the modern nuance attaching to certain forward passes. The nuance where referees turn into scientists of sorts, and are apparently able to discern and proportion the 'forwardness' of the release, from the 'forwardness' that had it's roots in the offloading player's momentum. Are there any rugby laws that provide clarity on this forward pass nuance?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3355 - 29/10/2023 17:35:59    2510854

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Replying To Glensboy:  "Some quite simplistic analysis here on many posts.
When the full history of what is known as 'The Troubles' is written it may enlighten those with an open mind and who are prepared to listen and learn. What is clear is, the British Government's recently introduced legislation is designed to avoid facts being being made public through Legal remedies, Inquests, Civil and criminal cases, and hide their culpability rather than their false narrative of 'Reconciliation'. Settlement of Ballymurphy, The Miami Showband and Patrick Campbell cases exposes the Govt's strategy around the Legislation. There are dozens of similar cases that are in the pipeline.

The Good Friday Agreement, which was opposed by many within Unionism, gave Nationalists, for want of a better phrase, a new found confidence in who they are. They are a young, confident, progressive group who want to see a 1 nation based on equality and humanity. They have aspirations of jobs, housing, health and a healthy climate. They are proud and confident of their culture with the GAA being central to it, not to antagonize their neighbours' but because they live it, respect it and understand its value.

I do not see the characterisation of what you describe of people deferring to the armed struggle for having achieved this. Many know little of the the troubles and thankfully did not experience the horror. They do however understand injustice and will use democratic means to oppose it.

What their neighbours feel about their identity, Europe and their place in the World is playing out.
It is certain, as anything can be, that there will be no going back to inequality."
I remember the troubles from the first civil rights March in October 1968, where a big RUC thug lashed out on the peaceful marchers, who wanted the same rights as applied in democratic countries.
It was a long 30 plus years of struggle to arrive at today's much improved society. It was a difficult time for the Nationalist community.
Most people on all sides want a normal society, but one sectarian party refuse to accept the result of the last elections. The DUP are stuck in the past.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1693 - 29/10/2023 17:46:45    2510857

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Replying To BarneyGrant:  "The 6 counties was artificially created to ensure a pro British majority. did i miss something?

That majority still exists and it will exist for another while yet."
Correct about the reason the 6 county statelet was set up. In Stormont, before the DUP played silly games,the club Unionist parties were in a minority. The most recent NI Census showed the Unionist population in the minority. This does not mean a majority vote just now for a United Ireland.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1693 - 29/10/2023 22:43:40    2510886

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "I don't believe it was legal through the laws, but was possibly permitted due to the modern nuance attaching to certain forward passes. The nuance where referees turn into scientists of sorts, and are apparently able to discern and proportion the 'forwardness' of the release, from the 'forwardness' that had it's roots in the offloading player's momentum. Are there any rugby laws that provide clarity on this forward pass nuance?"
It's up to the ref and TMO but essentially once the ball goes backwards on release its not a forward pass. If you throw a ball out of the window of a car travelling at 14mph backwards it will go forwards relative to the ground. But you would still have thrown it backwards.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 30/10/2023 11:41:50    2510927

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Replying To Viking66:  "It's up to the ref and TMO but essentially once the ball goes backwards on release its not a forward pass. If you throw a ball out of the window of a car travelling at 14mph backwards it will go forwards relative to the ground. But you would still have thrown it backwards."
The ball didn't appear to go backward from release to the point where Barrett picked it up imo. Does slamming on the brakes hard before release impact your automobile experiment? How do referees compute these regularly occurring inertias into their forward pass 'guesses'?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3355 - 31/10/2023 22:21:08    2511114

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Replying To thelongridge:  "I tipped New Zealand to win before the final. South Africa got a narrow victory over 14 man All Blacks side. Wayne Barnes may not be popular in NZ."
NZ need to look at their own discipline, they pick up more yellow and red cards than any of the other competing teams in the last couple of years.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1503 - 01/11/2023 10:34:37    2511142

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The ball didn't appear to go backward from release to the point where Barrett picked it up imo. Does slamming on the brakes hard before release impact your automobile experiment? How do referees compute these regularly occurring inertias into their forward pass 'guesses'?"
They look at the release and it has to go backwards relative to the hands of the player releasing the ball. Like alot of refereeing decisions in alot of sports its not an exact science though. And the referees decision is final.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 01/11/2023 10:37:34    2511144

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "The ball didn't appear to go backward from release to the point where Barrett picked it up imo. Does slamming on the brakes hard before release impact your automobile experiment? How do referees compute these regularly occurring inertias into their forward pass 'guesses'?"
They look at the release and it has to go backwards relative to the hands of the player releasing the ball. Like alot of refereeing decisions in alot of sports its not an exact science though. And the referees decision is final.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11216 - 01/11/2023 10:38:03    2511145

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