National Forum

National Hurling League Proposal

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Replying To Viking66:  "County club championships are over by end October. AI club championships always overlapped the League and still do."
Next January will tell if that is still the case. My understanding is that the AI club finals will be played before the league begins.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 10/06/2022 14:14:30    2423778

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Next January will tell if that is still the case. My understanding is that the AI club finals will be played before the league begins."
Will make sense for counties like yours who lost a lot of players to the AICC during the League.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15714 - 10/06/2022 14:56:57    2423793

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Combine league and championship, have two groups of 5, ie Munster and Leinster.
You play each team in your group twice, ie at home and away. And you play each team in the other group once (alternative home and away every year), This gives each team 13 games.

The winners of the Leinster and Munster finals go straight to the All Ireland semi finals.

The province runners up play the teams in 5th and 6th, in the quarter finals, this means you could have up to 4 teams from one province qualifying.

The teams in 9th and 10th have to play a relegation play off, with the losers to play the winners of the Joe McDonagh in a play off to see who will be in the top tier the following year.

WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 505 - 10/06/2022 18:46:44    2423834

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Replying To WEX98:  "Combine league and championship, have two groups of 5, ie Munster and Leinster.
You play each team in your group twice, ie at home and away. And you play each team in the other group once (alternative home and away every year), This gives each team 13 games.

The winners of the Leinster and Munster finals go straight to the All Ireland semi finals.

The province runners up play the teams in 5th and 6th, in the quarter finals, this means you could have up to 4 teams from one province qualifying.

The teams in 9th and 10th have to play a relegation play off, with the losers to play the winners of the Joe McDonagh in a play off to see who will be in the top tier the following year."
I've a similar but slightly different system I'd like tried.

12 team All Ireland championship where everyone plays everyone else once.

Play Provincial championship as straight knockout and results count towards the 11 game league campaign.

Top 6 to Playoffs.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4522 - 11/06/2022 17:03:49    2423955

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Can we not just have a straight forward league? 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B. Division winners promoted. Bottom teams relegated.
On the championship, McDonagh winners should determine the province with 6 teams, as previously mentioned.
After the provincial championships. 3rd should play at home against 4th in a preliminary round. This preliminary round should be the same weekend as the McDonagh and provincial finals.
The preliminary round winners and McDonagh finalists can then contest the preliminary quarter-finals on the following weekend. The 4 preliminary quarter-finalists will only have a week to prepare.
The jeopardy:
1. 4th placed teams will have to win 2 away games to make the quarter-finals.
2. 3rd or 4th teams will contest the quarter-finals on the third weekend in a row.
Unlikely scenario comment:
If Offaly lost to Laois in a McDonagh final but Offaly by the shock of the century went on to win the All-Ireland, the All-Ireland winner instead of the McDonagh winner should be promoted as the 6th team in their provincial championship. An unlikely scenario of course but in respect of the McDonagh Cup, a scenario which should be planned for.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 11/06/2022 21:44:49    2424092

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I see a lot of people proposing a system where 4th place in the provinces stays in the championship. 4th out of 5! Go home and play better next year. I wouldn't be one for bigging up my own county or ourselves as fans but I didn't hear many Galway people wanting the system changed after 2019, you either win enough games or you don't.

Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 11/06/2022 22:01:38    2424102

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Replying To Gforce20017:  "I see a lot of people proposing a system where 4th place in the provinces stays in the championship. 4th out of 5! Go home and play better next year. I wouldn't be one for bigging up my own county or ourselves as fans but I didn't hear many Galway people wanting the system changed after 2019, you either win enough games or you don't."
No top 6 teams out of 10.....so could be 3 from either province or 4 and 2.........you have to play all 9 teams.

WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 505 - 12/06/2022 09:55:26    2424122

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Replying To WEX98:  "No top 6 teams out of 10.....so could be 3 from either province or 4 and 2.........you have to play all 9 teams."
Wasn't talking about that idea.
Wouldn't be mad about that one either. 9 championship games before knock out feels very soccer-y. You'd have 2 teams at least qualified with weeks to spare. More games isn't always the answer, the system at the moment is just right I'd say but even then we had the Munster final wrapped up going into the final round

Gforce20017 (Galway) - Posts: 8 - 12/06/2022 10:56:46    2424146

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What's wrong with keeping the League as the League and the Championship as the Championship? Why are there lads wanting to make the Championship into some sort of League at all? The Round Robins guarantee all counties at least 4 Championship games. And the League guarantees all counties at least 5 league games. Why do lads want more and more games? To what end?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15714 - 13/06/2022 13:45:30    2424643

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Replying To Viking66:  "What's wrong with keeping the League as the League and the Championship as the Championship? Why are there lads wanting to make the Championship into some sort of League at all? The Round Robins guarantee all counties at least 4 Championship games. And the League guarantees all counties at least 5 league games. Why do lads want more and more games? To what end?"
To see more games between the top teams.

The league is just a warm up exercise, it seems like a wasted opportunity.

My perception is that players and managers in both codes want more games and a consistent schedule of games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4522 - 13/06/2022 16:25:26    2424744

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Consistent schedule of games in the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4522 - 13/06/2022 16:25:57    2424745

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The All-Ireland could become 2 groups of 6. The McDonagh then can remain as 1 group of 6.
The Munster and Leinster Championships could be played in knockout format after the league. McDonagh counties could be included in their provincial championship and given home advantage against an All-Ireland county.
If the provincial winners are an All-Ireland county, they should be awarded top seeding for the group stage. All other counties should be seeded based on league placing.
If a McDonagh county win their provincial championship, it won't change their McDonagh status. The McDonagh winner can be promoted. The bottom 2 teams of the All-Ireland group stage would enter a relegation play-off.
Granting all McDonagh counties access to their provincial championship can guarantee them all one high quality home fixture. They can bring that lesson then into the McDonagh series.
The McDonagh winner can be awarded 3 home games in the All-Ireland series in the following year. 3 more All-Ireland counties can be awarded 3 home games by luck of the draw. All other 6 teams would have 2 home games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 13/06/2022 17:06:17    2424765

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To see more games between the top teams.

The league is just a warm up exercise, it seems like a wasted opportunity.

My perception is that players and managers in both codes want more games and a consistent schedule of games."
There should be a bigger gap between League and Championship. Then it won't be just a warm up exercise.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15714 - 13/06/2022 21:12:05    2424829

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Replying To Viking66:  "There should be a bigger gap between League and Championship. Then it won't be just a warm up exercise."
The managers have just asked for an extra week.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 14/06/2022 11:15:50    2424897

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Replying To Viking66:  "There should be a bigger gap between League and Championship. Then it won't be just a warm up exercise."
Limerick still wouldn't care if they won it or not.

I never get why people like "competitions" where the top teams don't actually care if they win them or not.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4522 - 14/06/2022 14:32:32    2424961

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What problem are we trying to solve here - the league or the championship? I think the hurling championship is working well at the moment. The only real tweak that's needed is a fair way of promoting Kerry to Munster when they win the McDonough cup. There's a nice balance between competitive games and access to the competition for the 2nd tier.

The league is a bit of a mess though. Its very much a 3rd competition as it stands. The bigger teams know they can take it handy and not be in any real jeopardy. Why can't the better McDonagh cup teams play some McCarthy cup teams in the league? Have a division 1/2/3/4 structure with 8 teams in each. 2 up & 2 down with Division 4 would remain pretty much as it is like the 3A & 3B currently. Gives all teams something to aim for.

From this year the divisions would shake out:

1: Wexford, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Waterford, Dublin, Tipperary
2: Clare, Offaly, Laois, Antrim, Down, Westmeath, Kerry, Carlow
3: Kildare, Meath, Derry, Donegal, Sligo, London, Wicklow, Tyrone
4A: Mayo, Roscommon, Armagh, Monaghan, Louth, Fermanagh
4B: Warwickshire, Longford, Leitrim, Lancashire, Cavan

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 437 - 14/06/2022 14:59:50    2424968

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Limerick still wouldn't care if they won it or not.

I never get why people like "competitions" where the top teams don't actually care if they win them or not."
A simple solution to save a week and inject intensity to the league:
Return to Divisions 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, 3A and 3B on metric system. Simply allow the top 2 into the division final. Promote division winners. Relegate the bottom placed teams. We can then all enjoy the league in our respective divisions?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 14/06/2022 15:08:32    2424973

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Replying To brianb:  "What problem are we trying to solve here - the league or the championship? I think the hurling championship is working well at the moment. The only real tweak that's needed is a fair way of promoting Kerry to Munster when they win the McDonough cup. There's a nice balance between competitive games and access to the competition for the 2nd tier.

The league is a bit of a mess though. Its very much a 3rd competition as it stands. The bigger teams know they can take it handy and not be in any real jeopardy. Why can't the better McDonagh cup teams play some McCarthy cup teams in the league? Have a division 1/2/3/4 structure with 8 teams in each. 2 up & 2 down with Division 4 would remain pretty much as it is like the 3A & 3B currently. Gives all teams something to aim for.

From this year the divisions would shake out:

1: Wexford, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, Waterford, Dublin, Tipperary
2: Clare, Offaly, Laois, Antrim, Down, Westmeath, Kerry, Carlow
3: Kildare, Meath, Derry, Donegal, Sligo, London, Wicklow, Tyrone
4A: Mayo, Roscommon, Armagh, Monaghan, Louth, Fermanagh
4B: Warwickshire, Longford, Leitrim, Lancashire, Cavan"
For me it'd be about getting a better system overall.

I feel the league in its current guise is taking time in the calendar away from more championship games.

I get the argument around too many group games can disrupt the intensity but I do also think that well constructed formats where teams play single round robins there would tend to be meaningful games for most teams throughout.

A 12 team single round robin with 6 teams progressing would have a chase for a bye to the semifinals, a top 6 chase (that 8 or 9 teams would be eyeing for much of the campaign).

Relegation with 12th straight down and 11th in a playoff with the 2nd tier (McDonagh) runner up. Would have 3 or 4 teams with something to play for to avoid relegation.

You'd have 1 or 2 developing teams maintaining their place each season and giving them a base to develop from.

You'd also have it being fair and Kerry and promotion/relegation problem in the current system is removed whilst keeping the provincial knockout championships as counting towards the regular season standings.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4522 - 14/06/2022 17:46:45    2425018

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With 6 teams in Division 1B, 4 or 5 will be provincial championship counties. 1 or 2 will be McDonagh counties. That's a fair enough balance.
If they apply a semi-final for 2nd v 3rd to play the 1st team in the final, the top 3 in 1B can be guaranteed at least 3 tougher games.
In the current system, a Division 1 group with only 4 of the top 9 counties guarantees 3 tougher games as well.
Division 1 this year had 2 semi-finals and a final. Division 1A and Division 1B can both have one semi-final each. A double header then for both finals. It should still keep the GAA financial manager happy!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8784 - 14/06/2022 18:24:37    2425024

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It would be good to see more championship games against teams outside your province, for example how many times have Wexford and Waterford met in the championship?

WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 505 - 14/06/2022 21:19:04    2425052

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