National Forum

Knock-Out Provincial Hurling, Then Have A Round Robin

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I don't like the term 'round robin' at all in GAA circles. There's something 'notGAA' about that term imo. I see that the term has French and English origination. Keep the 'format' if you like, but drop the use of the term from GAA parlance imo.

The GAA invented 'the back door championship'. There isn't a sport, or country, or championship on earth, one could wager, that has 'a backdoor championship', only the GAA. It'll be hard to beat 'the backdoor' for GAA terminology, but we badly need a new original GAAname for these 'round robin' formats too.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3422 - 23/05/2022 17:17:02    2419834

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Something that could be interesting would be to have knockout provincials incorporated into a championship where not everyone plays one another.

Like if you'd a 14 team hurling All Ireland.

Every team plays 7 games, 3 home/away and 1 Neutral.

Best performers to All Ireland playoffs (top 4 plus anyone within 1 win of top 4 or something)

Have 11 teams stay up. Plus tier 2 champions.

Use division 2 of the league as a championship qualifying competition to come up with remaining 2 places which would be a competition very like the Joe McDonagh. So you keep a Joe McDonagh level competition, have more of the developing counties play in the All Ireland. Have more games but not too many in the All Ireland and have it more fairly balanced between Leinster and Munster with more flexibility in the number of entries.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/05/2022 09:57:22    2419883

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Replying To Viking66:  "The whole point to the restructure is that club championships should be starting in July."
Some will, some won't. As usual, county boards are a law on to themselves here. Dublin aren't starting till September. Wexford will start it and rightly so.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 24/05/2022 10:27:49    2419890

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He is proposing knock-out in the provinces Whammo86, the thread title has it too.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 24/05/2022 10:48:08    2419899

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "He is proposing knock-out in the provinces Whammo86, the thread title has it too."
Yeah knockout then round robin. Instead it's a variation of that to include both and make the knockout provincials count also.

Similar number of games. More fair, more flexibility.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/05/2022 10:56:22    2419904

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah knockout then round robin. Instead it's a variation of that to include both and make the knockout provincials count also.

Similar number of games. More fair, more flexibility."
100%. A variation could be made to keep provincial champions apart, runners up in either group, and then the rest in either group.
Current format is tired looking already.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 24/05/2022 11:40:32    2419929

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Wouldn't that change make the provincial championships meaningless ?

Plus there would be a large gap between a countys first match if they lose and their round
robin matches.

I think the format now with 3 out of 5/6 getting through works well and then knock out.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 24/05/2022 12:10:08    2419938

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In the context of shooting the breeze, the All-Ireland hurling could go with 2 even groups of 6.
Only the 12 teams in the All-Ireland Championship should be allowed enter the knockout provincial championships. Provincial performance and league can be used for seeding:
1. Provincial winners.
2. Provincial runners-up.
3. to 6. League ranking.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 24/05/2022 13:17:04    2419957

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "100%. A variation could be made to keep provincial champions apart, runners up in either group, and then the rest in either group.
Current format is tired looking already."
We'll that's it and they didn't take long to change from 10 teams to 11 teams and you still have the Kerry issue.

If you have 14 teams and every team is in 1 ladder you can have a much more flexible number of teams from each province in the competition.

I also think there's any issue with Leinster being the not Munster big 5 championship.

If Kerry were winning Joe McDonagh every year but not getting into Munster you'd argue for them to be in Leinster. What if you had the case of Leinster being Wexford, Dublin, KK and then Galway, Antrim and Kerry. The Leinster council's mission is to promote Gaelic games in Leinster and you'd have half the team's in their flagship hurling competition from outside the province and no place for their developing counties.

The current format was an improvement on what was there and has been exciting because hurling has a lot of closely matched teams. Long term I don't see it as that sustainable.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/05/2022 15:06:40    2419995

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There is no scenario where I will ever argue for Kerry to be in Leinster, to be honest!

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 24/05/2022 15:47:34    2420010

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "There is no scenario where I will ever argue for Kerry to be in Leinster, to be honest!"
That's a huge problem with things as they stand.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/05/2022 17:41:45    2420040

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Definitely need the provincial championships to be knock-out. It will not work without it.
But it promotes hurling beyond the traditional counties in that they all have a chance to compete and compete on merit with the top counties (something badly lacking in football if players and managers were honest about it).

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 26/05/2022 09:12:00    2420274

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "There is no scenario where I will ever argue for Kerry to be in Leinster, to be honest!"
I've no problem with that. The solution is for Munster to expand to 6 for one year. Whether that's only one of Munster and Leinster having 6 teams, or the McDonagh reducing to 5 for a year, that's for the powers that be and all stakeholders to decide.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 26/05/2022 12:09:04    2420318

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The hurling league can be played over 7 weekends from 02/Feb to 19/Mar. This has a rest weekend after round 3. (Using 2022 Saturday dates for example purposes )

26/Mar can be a rest weekend.

The knockout provincial championships can be played over 4 weekends from 02/Apr to 23/Apr. This should entail quarter-finals and semi-finals on back to back weekends. Then a week off before the provincial final.

30/Apr can be a rest weekend.

All-Ireland 2 groups of 6 can play over 6 weekends from 07/May to 11/Jun. This includes a rest weekend after round 3.

2nd and 3rd can contest the quarter-finals on 18/Jun, the same date as this year. The semi-finals and final then are on the same dates.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 26/05/2022 17:35:18    2420397

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The hurling league can be played over 7 weekends from 02/Feb to 19/Mar. This has a rest weekend after round 3. (Using 2022 Saturday dates for example purposes )

26/Mar can be a rest weekend.

The knockout provincial championships can be played over 4 weekends from 02/Apr to 23/Apr. This should entail quarter-finals and semi-finals on back to back weekends. Then a week off before the provincial final.

30/Apr can be a rest weekend.

All-Ireland 2 groups of 6 can play over 6 weekends from 07/May to 11/Jun. This includes a rest weekend after round 3.

2nd and 3rd can contest the quarter-finals on 18/Jun, the same date as this year. The semi-finals and final then are on the same dates."
Yeah I think that would work well.

I think hurling's approach to the leagues could be the way to go for football. Have it developmental.

I'd have the football then look like Provincials followed by an All Ireland series with 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 and qualification based on the championship and not leagues.

I'd have the Provincials and All Ireland clubs played in parallel with the developmental leagues in both codes and have the intercounty season run on into August.

I'd have flexibility then for county boards to organise their competitions without needing to have them run off in time to start Provincial club.

There would be a degree more flexibility around the start of these competitions and whilst I know there's been a big push to get the season planning more robust, I think they've actually caused it to become too restrictive.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 27/05/2022 12:34:46    2420472

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The hurling league can be played over 7 weekends from 02/Feb to 19/Mar. This has a rest weekend after round 3. (Using 2022 Saturday dates for example purposes )

26/Mar can be a rest weekend.

The knockout provincial championships can be played over 4 weekends from 02/Apr to 23/Apr. This should entail quarter-finals and semi-finals on back to back weekends. Then a week off before the provincial final.

30/Apr can be a rest weekend.

All-Ireland 2 groups of 6 can play over 6 weekends from 07/May to 11/Jun. This includes a rest weekend after round 3.

2nd and 3rd can contest the quarter-finals on 18/Jun, the same date as this year. The semi-finals and final then are on the same dates."
I think that is a great format. Work well for both provinces. Both provincial titles mean a lot so no reason to not play them, but you don't need a week off before a provincial final in April.
It might be a bit to much but in the Wexford club hurling, the team who finished 4th in 1 group play the team who finish top of the other. Bottom team in each is relegated. Leads to very few dead rubbers and the "prize" for finishing 4th is the top team in the other group. It works well, but there are farces where teams win 1 match to finish 4th. And, do 4 deserve to qualify from a round robin? Probably not.

ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1128 - 27/05/2022 14:43:26    2420503

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Replying To ExiledInWex:  "I think that is a great format. Work well for both provinces. Both provincial titles mean a lot so no reason to not play them, but you don't need a week off before a provincial final in April.
It might be a bit to much but in the Wexford club hurling, the team who finished 4th in 1 group play the team who finish top of the other. Bottom team in each is relegated. Leads to very few dead rubbers and the "prize" for finishing 4th is the top team in the other group. It works well, but there are farces where teams win 1 match to finish 4th. And, do 4 deserve to qualify from a round robin? Probably not."
If you have the QF and SF back to back of course you will need a break of a week before the provincial final. After an AI final the 2 provincial finals are the next most important games of the year.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 27/05/2022 14:53:40    2420507

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Replying To Viking66:  "If you have the QF and SF back to back of course you will need a break of a week before the provincial final. After an AI final the 2 provincial finals are the next most important games of the year."
Yeah I think a break before a final can add to the sense of occasion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 27/05/2022 16:12:12    2420516

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Regards my calendar suggestion:
I'm advocating a return to Divisions 1A and 1B on metric system. Top 2 into final, Division winners promoted. Last placed teams relegated.

The provincial championships can be limited to the 12 teams competing in the All-Ireland. The provincial finalists can be seeds 1 and 2 for the group stage.
All teams can be guaranteed 2 home games in the group stage.

Reward of 1 extra home game can apply as follows:
1. Provincial winners. (2 teams)
2. Joe McDonagh winner. (Of the previous, the promoted team.)
3. Division 1A winner.
4. Division 1B winner. (If they have qualified.)
5. Division 2A winner. (If they have qualified. This can apply to lower divisions too, if applicable.)
6. Provincial runners-up. (By luck of the draw if only 1 spot available for extra home game.)
7. Teams outside the provincial finalists should be seeded based on previous year's championship performance. If there's a free spot for an extra home game, the highest seeds can take that reward.
[Please note: Only 6 teams can be rewarded 1 extra home game, 3 in each group. The above attempts to put a fair ranking on how that can be achieved.]

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7846 - 28/05/2022 09:07:41    2420557

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "I don't like the term 'round robin' at all in GAA circles. There's something 'notGAA' about that term imo. I see that the term has French and English origination. Keep the 'format' if you like, but drop the use of the term from GAA parlance imo.

The GAA invented 'the back door championship'. There isn't a sport, or country, or championship on earth, one could wager, that has 'a backdoor championship', only the GAA. It'll be hard to beat 'the backdoor' for GAA terminology, but we badly need a new original GAAname for these 'round robin' formats too."
Totally agree. Round Robin is for children's soccer. Scrap it from GAA lexicon.
Something "As Gaeilge" at least. Spideog Cruinn? My best effort.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 28/05/2022 11:00:23    2420562

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