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Replying To oneoff: "The problem is many "hurling people" don't want any sort of change. You see how they react when the colour of the ball was changed.
Everything is done to keep the top teams happy. A number of years ago Antrim and I think it was Wexford were to play in a relagation play off and they just refused to play it. While others have to play countless play offs to be promoted.
In the early 2010s Clare were in Div 2 and their manager of the time complained about how it wasn't going to be any help to them and said they considered not even playing in it. It was probably after that anytime one of the "top" looked like dropping down the format would be changed to suit them.
It's actually not even the likes likes of Kilkenny, Tipp etc who get things their own way. Let's not forget Antrim never actually won the Christy Ring Cup and were just put into the Joe McDonagh Cup in it's first season." You're going all the way back to 2009 for that thing involving Antrim and Wexford, and it wasn't even for League, as it referred to championship instead and possible relegation from Liam McCarthy Cup to Christy Ring Cup (it was before the Joe McDonagh was introduced).
And it's not that anybody refused to play a play-off, as one was played between Antrim and Offaly (rather than Wexford), with Offaly winning it.
The issue was that Antrim believed at the time that they'd been promised three years in the Leinster Championship, and a Special Congress ended up voting afterwards that the relegation to Christy Ring wouldn't happen, so that they could remain in the top tier competition after all.
Having said that, there's some merit to what you're talking about. A better example is Cork in 2016. They lost all five matches in what was Div. 1A at the time and should have been relegated, but they led the calls for restructuring, and ended up in Div. 1A the following year as well.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2254 - 24/03/2022 16:03:18
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Replying To brianb: "A Division 2 of 8 teams ranked 9-16 was unfair on teams 9 and 10.
Indeed - relegation in hurling is always unfair on the team relegated." A Division 2 of 8 in football at least provides a fair level of competition. The drop in hurling with the football format was steeper. The Divisions of 6 was the right move, especially now hurling has round robin championships. Plenty of hurling. Lovely hurling!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 24/03/2022 18:20:18
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Replying To oneoff: "The problem is many "hurling people" don't want any sort of change. You see how they react when the colour of the ball was changed.
Everything is done to keep the top teams happy. A number of years ago Antrim and I think it was Wexford were to play in a relagation play off and they just refused to play it. While others have to play countless play offs to be promoted.
In the early 2010s Clare were in Div 2 and their manager of the time complained about how it wasn't going to be any help to them and said they considered not even playing in it. It was probably after that anytime one of the "top" looked like dropping down the format would be changed to suit them.
It's actually not even the likes likes of Kilkenny, Tipp etc who get things their own way. Let's not forget Antrim never actually won the Christy Ring Cup and were just put into the Joe McDonagh Cup in it's first season." "The problem is many "hurling people" don't want any sort of change. You see how they react when the colour of the ball was changed."
Who are these many "hurling people" who "don't want any sort of change"? Name them all.
How did many of the "hurling people" react when the colour of the ball was changed?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2480 - 24/03/2022 21:45:25
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Taking on board the views of others on here, there is a format where the Joe McDonagh Cup could expand to 8 teams within the current timescale:
8 teams play 4 games. 2 at home and 2 away. Each team plays a team of seeds A, B, C and D.
The 4 top teams advance to an All-Ireland playoff. The top 2 teams given home advantage. The winners progress to the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-final, with home advantage against the third place provincial teams.
The bottom 4 teams enter the Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-finals. Teams 5 and 6 with home advantage. The winners progress to the quarter-finals. The losers contest the Relegation final.
The All-Ireland playoff losers to be given home advantage against the Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-final winners in the quarter-finals.
The All-Ireland play-off winners to be given home advantage against the Joe McDonagh quarter-final winners in the semi-finals.
The Leinster Championship has 5 rounds. The first 4 Joe McDonagh rounds can be played on the same first 4 weeks of Leinster.
The All-Ireland play-offs and Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-finals can take place on week 5 on Leinster.
The All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals and Joe McDonagh quarter-finals can be played on the same week of the provincial finals.
The Joe McDonagh semi-finals can be played on the same weekend as the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
The Joe McDonagh final can be played on the same Sunday as the second All-Ireland semi-final.
If a Joe McDonagh team happens to win their All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-final, their Joe McDonagh semi-final would have to be played a week later to allow them compete in both tournaments.
Advantages:
1. All teams have 2 home games in the group phase.
2. Teams are rewarded home advantage in the knockout phase based on merit from the group stage
3. A top team from the group phase could have a home All-Ireland play-off, a home All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-final and a home Joe McDonagh semi-final in succession. A merited reward to promote their talents within their county.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 25/03/2022 08:54:25
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""The problem is many "hurling people" don't want any sort of change. You see how they react when the colour of the ball was changed."
Who are these many "hurling people" who "don't want any sort of change"? Name them all.
How did many of the "hurling people" react when the colour of the ball was changed?" Indeed.
In fact, the Leinster counties have shown themselves to be open to promoting the game and allowing a 6th team in to the province.
If I remember correctly oneoff, Wexford objected to their relegation on the grounds that Cork had given 2-3 walk overs during their strike and Wexford were going to be relegated on scoring difference despite beating Cork and drawing with Tipperary on the last day to put them on the same number of points. What did you think they should do, say ah grand sure go ahead, we'll drop down to division 2? (I was only 12-13 at the time but I remember my father going ballistic about it).
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1737 - 25/03/2022 11:10:42
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Replying To legendzxix: "A Division 2 of 8 in football at least provides a fair level of competition. The drop in hurling with the football format was steeper. The Divisions of 6 was the right move, especially now hurling has round robin championships. Plenty of hurling. Lovely hurling!" I don't fully agree with the drop in levels in hurling necessarily being steeper. I think its just a different game. You can't have a blanket defence in hurling the way a football team can.
In football if a team is 10% better than their opposition - the opposition can throw up a blanket defence tries to frustrate and win on scraps.
In hurling if a team is 10% better than their opposition you get a blow out - this happens often enough in the top tier. I think you would see genuine improvement in the next level by playing at a higher level more often.
Look at this years league - Offlay, Laois and Antrim all had a few good games against the top teams; but a fair few beatings as well. They would be just as well served by having more games against the likes of Westmeath and Kerry who are trying hard to move up and getting occasional merited promotions to play the "big" teams. The worst of the "big" teams will be with them in Division 2 - I see this as better all round.
Kerry were runners up in the McDonagh cup last year - coming from Division 2A. In normal years they would have been in the All Ireland series. The first time they'd play the likes of a Clare or a Waterford would be in this series at the height of championship season - that's some baptism of fire and it could be so much better.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 25/03/2022 11:26:06
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Replying To legendzxix: "Taking on board the views of others on here, there is a format where the Joe McDonagh Cup could expand to 8 teams within the current timescale:
8 teams play 4 games. 2 at home and 2 away. Each team plays a team of seeds A, B, C and D.
The 4 top teams advance to an All-Ireland playoff. The top 2 teams given home advantage. The winners progress to the All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-final, with home advantage against the third place provincial teams.
The bottom 4 teams enter the Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-finals. Teams 5 and 6 with home advantage. The winners progress to the quarter-finals. The losers contest the Relegation final.
The All-Ireland playoff losers to be given home advantage against the Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-final winners in the quarter-finals.
The All-Ireland play-off winners to be given home advantage against the Joe McDonagh quarter-final winners in the semi-finals.
The Leinster Championship has 5 rounds. The first 4 Joe McDonagh rounds can be played on the same first 4 weeks of Leinster.
The All-Ireland play-offs and Joe McDonagh Preliminary Quarter-finals can take place on week 5 on Leinster.
The All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-finals and Joe McDonagh quarter-finals can be played on the same week of the provincial finals.
The Joe McDonagh semi-finals can be played on the same weekend as the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
The Joe McDonagh final can be played on the same Sunday as the second All-Ireland semi-final.
If a Joe McDonagh team happens to win their All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-final, their Joe McDonagh semi-final would have to be played a week later to allow them compete in both tournaments.
Advantages:
1. All teams have 2 home games in the group phase.
2. Teams are rewarded home advantage in the knockout phase based on merit from the group stage
3. A top team from the group phase could have a home All-Ireland play-off, a home All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-final and a home Joe McDonagh semi-final in succession. A merited reward to promote their talents within their county." If there's 12 teams in the top championship, I just don't think there needs to be that All Ireland pathway for the second tier.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 25/03/2022 13:49:58
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One of the cups should be called after a woman. They've infiltrated everything else now, and taken it over. The 6 nations starts this weekend. No, that's over. No, it's on this weekend. No, it's over. It's not over, THE WOMENS 6 NATIONS, I mean. Ohh right, it's all becoming very confusing, and indeed overcrowded, the 'sporting space'. I'm bored of excessive exposure to women's sports. The old reliables, like golf & tennis & camogie, grand, but they seem to be 'doubling up' on all our stuff at this stage, and it's tiresome quite frankly.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3460 - 25/03/2022 16:48:09
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"If there's 12 teams in the top championship, I just don't think there needs to be that All Ireland pathway for the second tier."
Whammo86 (Antrim)
Hurling seems happy with 11 due to retaining the provincial championships. Do you want the Preliminary Quarter-final done away with? I'd like to see Kerry have a home game against a top opponent. It was the sweetener for counties 10 to 16 and I think they found a fair compromise there. It's not often counties in that bracket get a good deal!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 25/03/2022 18:52:25
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "One of the cups should be called after a woman. They've infiltrated everything else now, and taken it over. The 6 nations starts this weekend. No, that's over. No, it's on this weekend. No, it's over. It's not over, THE WOMENS 6 NATIONS, I mean. Ohh right, it's all becoming very confusing, and indeed overcrowded, the 'sporting space'. I'm bored of excessive exposure to women's sports. The old reliables, like golf & tennis & camogie, grand, but they seem to be 'doubling up' on all our stuff at this stage, and it's tiresome quite frankly." I think you've got issues pal
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 26/03/2022 11:05:17
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Replying To legendzxix: ""If there's 12 teams in the top championship, I just don't think there needs to be that All Ireland pathway for the second tier."
Whammo86 (Antrim)
Hurling seems happy with 11 due to retaining the provincial championships. Do you want the Preliminary Quarter-final done away with? I'd like to see Kerry have a home game against a top opponent. It was the sweetener for counties 10 to 16 and I think they found a fair compromise there. It's not often counties in that bracket get a good deal!" It made sense when there were just 10 teams and somewhat with 11 teams. In general I think having lower level teams enter into the playoffs of the higher level isn't a good mechanism for competitive sport.
If there's 12 there's more chance Kerry just are one of the 3 teams to play a championship round robin campaign.
If there's no preliminary quarterfinals the second tier competition can play longer into the season without having to be finished up early.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 26/03/2022 11:09:35
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No, I think the current system works, only problem I would have is the names of the tournaments, no problem with the cup names but I think competitions need a better name, not hard to call them Premier Intermediate championship and so on
DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 268 - 26/03/2022 13:04:29
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Replying To DuhallowRed: "No, I think the current system works, only problem I would have is the names of the tournaments, no problem with the cup names but I think competitions need a better name, not hard to call them Premier Intermediate championship and so on" I agree Duhallow Red!
1. All-Ireland Championship (McCarthy)
2. National Championship (McDonagh)
3. National Conference (Ring)
4. Counties Premier Conference (Rackard)
5. Counties Conference (Meagher)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 26/03/2022 14:35:12
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It made sense when there were just 10 teams and somewhat with 11 teams. In general I think having lower level teams enter into the playoffs of the higher level isn't a good mechanism for competitive sport.
If there's 12 there's more chance Kerry just are one of the 3 teams to play a championship round robin campaign.
If there's no preliminary quarterfinals the second tier competition can play longer into the season without having to be finished up early.
Whammo86 (Antrim)
I agree it is not a good mechanism but it was a fair compromise. If Kerry had direct access to Munster, I'd have no problem with what you are suggesting, but I would stick with 11 teams.
The McDonagh winner can be promoted as the 6th team in their provincial championship. Munster OR Leinster can have 6 teams depending on the McDonagh winner from the previous year. The team finishing 6th in the 6 team provincial championship being the team to be relegated. It keeps a standard in both provinces and applies equality.
The McDonagh then could be a straightforward 8 team round robin. Top 4 into semi-finals. Top 2 with home advantage. The final being on the Sunday of the second All-Ireland hurling semi-final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 26/03/2022 14:45:10
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Well we could only muster 4 subs today, so why.would we be in a higher division ???
It is ok as it is.
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 26/03/2022 16:03:41
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Replying To sponger: "Well we could only muster 4 subs today, so why.would we be in a higher division ???
It is ok as it is." The teams you'd be playing against wouldn't change much.
Maybe you'd go up one year to a level you're not up to but you'd be back down again. Can happen currently anyway.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 26/03/2022 17:54:28
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Replying To Whammo86: "The teams you'd be playing against wouldn't change much.
Maybe you'd go up one year to a level you're not up to but you'd be back down again. Can happen currently anyway." Well done today.
sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 26/03/2022 20:16:45
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""The problem is many "hurling people" don't want any sort of change. You see how they react when the colour of the ball was changed."
Who are these many "hurling people" who "don't want any sort of change"? Name them all.
How did many of the "hurling people" react when the colour of the ball was changed?" Name them all? With a comment like that you're likely one of them. But just so you don't have a hissy fit. The likes of Donal Og, Jackie Tyrall to name just two of the most high profile.
Patrick Horgan is still completing about it almost two years on. At the time there were plenty of others. If you don't want to accept that that's on you.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 27/03/2022 09:24:16
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Replying To sponger: "Well done today." Cheers, hopefully we can follow it up with a Joe McDonagh Cup title and playing more regularly against the best teams can bring us on. It certainly feels like we're in a better place than we were 5 or 6 years ago.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 27/03/2022 10:52:50
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Replying To Whammo86: "Cheers, hopefully we can follow it up with a Joe McDonagh Cup title and playing more regularly against the best teams can bring us on. It certainly feels like we're in a better place than we were 5 or 6 years ago." Congratulations to Antrim! Hopefully retaining your Division 1 status is your success for this year! ;-)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 27/03/2022 12:40:29
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