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Replying To yew_tree: "Tommy132 - I thought Coen received a lot of Mayo kickouts and generally had a decent game. Don't get the hyped about Carr and Orme…hope I'm proved wrong but o don't get it. Bryan Walsh not at the standard required…why is he there? We need lads who can put the ball over the bar. Our half forward line does not score at all.
Jack Carney is not a full forward. He is better driving at goal from midfield, not receiving the ball with his back to goal.
Interesting to note Jordan Flynn played for his club Sunday, as did Darren Coen who apparently kicked a few scores." Darren Coen was the man to bring on on Saturday to kick it over the blanket defence. He won't put in massive workrate but with 20 mins left he's a good alternative. The question about Brian Walsh is a good one but also what's Fergal Boland done wrong?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 07/06/2022 14:46:26
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Replying To yew_tree: "Tommy132 - I thought Coen received a lot of Mayo kickouts and generally had a decent game. Don't get the hyped about Carr and Orme…hope I'm proved wrong but o don't get it. Bryan Walsh not at the standard required…why is he there? We need lads who can put the ball over the bar. Our half forward line does not score at all.
Jack Carney is not a full forward. He is better driving at goal from midfield, not receiving the ball with his back to goal.
Interesting to note Jordan Flynn played for his club Sunday, as did Darren Coen who apparently kicked a few scores." I think James Carr has done it in fits and starts- his goal against Galway a few years back in the qualifiers, played well against Kerry in the league final that year, was regularly adding points from the bench last year and one of our better players against Galway this season, IMO. But he is inconsistent and maybe a better option from the sideline.
Jack Carney didn't do too badly against Monaghan, given that he was being played in an unfamiliar position. But I do wonder what Darren Coen has done not to even merit a place in the squad at this stage (Horan clearly isn't keen on Fergal Boland either, who might be better off focusing on hurling at this point). I get that Coen doesn't necessarily fit into a high pressing system, but against the likes of Monaghan who put plenty of men behind the ball, he offers an outlet for high ball and can score from play. Not something we have an abundance of just right now...
Orme and Walsh haven't really set the heather on fire in their Mayo careers so far, need to see a bit more from them.
It would also be huge to get Jordan Flynn back, had him written off after his ankle injury a few months back. He was in great form during the NFL.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 07/06/2022 14:48:13
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Aidan Orme and Aidan O'Shea can kick pass after pass accurately high or low long or short......seriously think both need to start "passing" the ball over the bar. The ability to score is there but both seem to struggle mentally with that part of their game.
ponga (Mayo) - Posts: 649 - 07/06/2022 15:35:30
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Replying To ponga: "Aidan Orme and Aidan O'Shea can kick pass after pass accurately high or low long or short......seriously think both need to start "passing" the ball over the bar. The ability to score is there but both seem to struggle mentally with that part of their game." I heard Steven McDonnell from Armagh talk about that before. Others would ask him for tips on kicking points. His advice was to imagine a teammate standing on the crossbar and just pass him the ball. Simple!
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 420 - 07/06/2022 16:02:53
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Replying To GreenandRed: "I thought McLaughlin played well. He's not playing football that long so his shooting can definitely improve. But he gave us energy and the crowd responded. Hard to know that a forward would have buried the chance that Beggan saved, hindsight is a great thing. But why aren't forwards trying to kick more points? Mattie Ruane was good winning posession but, bar one lovely point, he was kicking when he shouldn't. Still a class player and room to improve. I still prefer Oisin Mullin playing closer to midfield. I thought that more of his, or Paddy's or Lee's running at Monaghan defence to create some space was worth a try. Watched the game back yesterday. Aidan Orme wasn't so much of a scoring threat but was busy throughout, has a great atitude. Enda Hession had a much better game than I remembered and I thought he played well. Stephen Coen was good, not great, much better than v Galway and in the League. He's rarely gonna give an eyecatching display but he's steady, uses his experience. Aido is playing some stuff, bar the ill-flighted pass to Lee. I think dropping him early this year has revived him. But please leave him in midfield. Ryan, Swanny, Darren McHale should be options for Kildare match. Hopefully Jordan Flynn too. What chance he starts at 11? Anyways. Kildare will be a tough test but we can beat them." Hard to know ?
That was a guilt edged scoring opportunity .
He panicked and aimlessly blasted the ball straight at beggan when all he had to do was pick his spot with all the time in the world to do it.
Nose bleed stuff.
Vish (USA) - Posts: 88 - 07/06/2022 16:37:30
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Considering Monaghan set about trying to keep Mayo out for most of the second half when they themselves needed to chase the game, it's no surprise (though still a bit disappointing) that our forwards didn't clock up scores. The first half scoring burst at least put us in the position where there was no urgency to do anything except play it safe and hope to coax Monaghan out. They only took the bait when the game was virtually gone and even then only for the crazy stuff (including Aidan's blind back pass) the game would have fizzled out. Better for safety I think to drive the ball over the sideline since the other team has to restart with one man off the pitch allowing markers to pick up all threats.
Apart from McCarron having too much room in the first half, the defense seemed much better organised than v Galway and was much more mobile using our first choice halfback line. Lucky we have so many regular scorers behind our half-forward line. They worked hard but (Orme's pass excepted) showed no inspiration (maybe the game plan was to avoid getting sucked in?). In the end it doesn't matter who gets the scores and in general Mayo are hard to play against physically. I'd say Kildare, who generally play open football, will probably still try to stop our runners from deep by crowding the middle, but with ROD likely to be out again I can't see any approach from Mayo other than to go with a high work rate and pace again.
One learning we did get to see on Saturday was not allowing Monaghan to move the ball from midfield quickly after throw-in... this caught us out numerous times in other games ever since Aidan stopped being dominant at winning the ball.
Not sure how the game nowhere near Newbridge will go. Kildare are strong around the middle and have two top class forwards, plus they won't be quaking in their boots seeing what Mayo have served up so far this championship. It might boil down to whoever makes the fewest mistakes and be cagier than many are expecting.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 07/06/2022 18:03:18
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Replying To Gleebo: "I think James Carr has done it in fits and starts- his goal against Galway a few years back in the qualifiers, played well against Kerry in the league final that year, was regularly adding points from the bench last year and one of our better players against Galway this season, IMO. But he is inconsistent and maybe a better option from the sideline.
Jack Carney didn't do too badly against Monaghan, given that he was being played in an unfamiliar position. But I do wonder what Darren Coen has done not to even merit a place in the squad at this stage (Horan clearly isn't keen on Fergal Boland either, who might be better off focusing on hurling at this point). I get that Coen doesn't necessarily fit into a high pressing system, but against the likes of Monaghan who put plenty of men behind the ball, he offers an outlet for high ball and can score from play. Not something we have an abundance of just right now...
Orme and Walsh haven't really set the heather on fire in their Mayo careers so far, need to see a bit more from them.
It would also be huge to get Jordan Flynn back, had him written off after his ankle injury a few months back. He was in great form during the NFL." Interesting you mentioned the goals v Galway Carr scored down in Limerick…that's all I ever hear. Did D Coen score 4 or 5 points that day too? A massive score v Dublin when introduced last year. He can be hot and cold but agree with the opinion he could be used more effectively and regularly off the bench. Boland another player I rate highly, kicked 0-8 at the weekend for Aghamore.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 07/06/2022 19:07:26
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Replying To yew_tree: "Interesting you mentioned the goals v Galway Carr scored down in Limerick…that's all I ever hear. Did D Coen score 4 or 5 points that day too? A massive score v Dublin when introduced last year. He can be hot and cold but agree with the opinion he could be used more effectively and regularly off the bench. Boland another player I rate highly, kicked 0-8 at the weekend for Aghamore." Yeah, Coen scored three points from play that day, also four points from play against Armagh in the previous round. He was very good that season.
I don't get why Boland has been frozen out to the extent he has. On his only starting appearance this year, down in Tralee, he scored three points from play against one of the tightest defences in the country. He didn't shine the following week against Tyrone (nobody did), and has hardly seen any game time since.
All the while, we're carrying three or four non-scoring forwards. I get that work rate is important in our system, but surely given our weak scoring rate, some allowances have to be made for fellas who can split the sticks.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 08/06/2022 08:32:19
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Replying To yew_tree: "Tommy132 - I thought Coen received a lot of Mayo kickouts and generally had a decent game. Don't get the hyped about Carr and Orme…hope I'm proved wrong but o don't get it. Bryan Walsh not at the standard required…why is he there? We need lads who can put the ball over the bar. Our half forward line does not score at all.
Jack Carney is not a full forward. He is better driving at goal from midfield, not receiving the ball with his back to goal.
Interesting to note Jordan Flynn played for his club Sunday, as did Darren Coen who apparently kicked a few scores." Yeah Coen did get good few short kickouts, himself and Keegan seem to be the lads that get free for short kickouts over the years..id have Orme and Carney in similar situation as its there first year in the county setup so give them games and see what they can do, both have ability and seem to need the confidence to push on. Carr is an odd one, again has the ability but doesn't show it enough, drifts in and out of games, and he seems to do his best when receiving the ball out around the 45 and running from there, doesn't seem to have the short burst but has the speed over a longer distance so maybe in the corner doesn't suit him, but he has had plenty of chances and needs to start getting scores now.
Yeah I dunno about Walsh, just a worker but doesnt offer much I dont think, might just be there cause of the club he is from.
Good to hear Flynn got a club game in he is a big loss with his from in the league.
Darren Coen will get scores but probably wont track back and if he does he wont be back up in the forward line too quickly, so it comes down to what Horan wants and it seems to be forwards that are athletic, can tackle and can get up and down the field..with being able to score not the priority. Same with Fergal Boland, scores plenty but the only thing I can see is that maybe he doesn't tackle enough but hard to know.
tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 601 - 08/06/2022 13:10:28
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Replying To tommy132: "Yeah Coen did get good few short kickouts, himself and Keegan seem to be the lads that get free for short kickouts over the years..id have Orme and Carney in similar situation as its there first year in the county setup so give them games and see what they can do, both have ability and seem to need the confidence to push on. Carr is an odd one, again has the ability but doesn't show it enough, drifts in and out of games, and he seems to do his best when receiving the ball out around the 45 and running from there, doesn't seem to have the short burst but has the speed over a longer distance so maybe in the corner doesn't suit him, but he has had plenty of chances and needs to start getting scores now.
Yeah I dunno about Walsh, just a worker but doesnt offer much I dont think, might just be there cause of the club he is from.
Good to hear Flynn got a club game in he is a big loss with his from in the league.
Darren Coen will get scores but probably wont track back and if he does he wont be back up in the forward line too quickly, so it comes down to what Horan wants and it seems to be forwards that are athletic, can tackle and can get up and down the field..with being able to score not the priority. Same with Fergal Boland, scores plenty but the only thing I can see is that maybe he doesn't tackle enough but hard to know." Having the ability to get up and down the field, Tracking back, tacking etc is all very important but I feel we are falling down again and again when trying to put the ball over the bar which is the most important thing.
We have great honest lads, very athletic and conditioned but maybe that the problem. We seem to hit a glass wall at the opposition 45 and proceed to pass back and across and back again when you looking for that bit of magic and cuteness to engineer a score from an uncrowned position. I feel we are too one dimensional in this respect.
It's enough to beat the vast majority of teams but in finals and semi final in those "clutch" moments we are falling down.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 08/06/2022 13:23:22
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Replying To yew_tree: "Having the ability to get up and down the field, Tracking back, tacking etc is all very important but I feel we are falling down again and again when trying to put the ball over the bar which is the most important thing.
We have great honest lads, very athletic and conditioned but maybe that the problem. We seem to hit a glass wall at the opposition 45 and proceed to pass back and across and back again when you looking for that bit of magic and cuteness to engineer a score from an uncrowned position. I feel we are too one dimensional in this respect.
It's enough to beat the vast majority of teams but in finals and semi final in those "clutch" moments we are falling down." If ye can get O'Donoghue and COC on the pitch at the same time that will open up space for the others. Sometimes just having those threats draws attention and can give the so called lesser lights the extra half a second
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1829 - 08/06/2022 14:24:37
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Replying To yew_tree: "Having the ability to get up and down the field, Tracking back, tacking etc is all very important but I feel we are falling down again and again when trying to put the ball over the bar which is the most important thing.
We have great honest lads, very athletic and conditioned but maybe that the problem. We seem to hit a glass wall at the opposition 45 and proceed to pass back and across and back again when you looking for that bit of magic and cuteness to engineer a score from an uncrowned position. I feel we are too one dimensional in this respect.
It's enough to beat the vast majority of teams but in finals and semi final in those "clutch" moments we are falling down." Yeah the running game is only getting them so far and its up to Horan to get the balance right. He is probably unlucky in that a full forward line of O Donoghue, O Connor, Conroy would give you both but for a second year that line up isn't possible.
Then like last year he calls on Darren Coen to come on and try and save the day but he hasn't had the game time to be at the right level, he came on and got a score but did he kick 2 into the keepers hands as well..he needs to be playing games, and needs to be involved on Saturday.
Horan is to stubborn tho, he doesnt want to go away from plan A and doesnt work on a plan B..
tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 601 - 08/06/2022 15:07:30
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Replying To tommy132: "Yeah the running game is only getting them so far and its up to Horan to get the balance right. He is probably unlucky in that a full forward line of O Donoghue, O Connor, Conroy would give you both but for a second year that line up isn't possible.
Then like last year he calls on Darren Coen to come on and try and save the day but he hasn't had the game time to be at the right level, he came on and got a score but did he kick 2 into the keepers hands as well..he needs to be playing games, and needs to be involved on Saturday.
Horan is to stubborn tho, he doesnt want to go away from plan A and doesnt work on a plan B.." Replying To tommy132: : " He is probably unlucky in that a full forward line of O Donoghue, O Connor, Conroy would give you both but for a second year that line up isn't possible."
Wasn't unlucky, we were just careless with Conroy..
Not bringing his club into this , but he was flogged by both the county and college for their own selfish interests within days of each other on soft wet turf, and we paid the ultimate price for it..
Vish (USA) - Posts: 88 - 08/06/2022 15:23:43
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Replying To tommy132: "Yeah the running game is only getting them so far and its up to Horan to get the balance right. He is probably unlucky in that a full forward line of O Donoghue, O Connor, Conroy would give you both but for a second year that line up isn't possible.
Then like last year he calls on Darren Coen to come on and try and save the day but he hasn't had the game time to be at the right level, he came on and got a score but did he kick 2 into the keepers hands as well..he needs to be playing games, and needs to be involved on Saturday.
Horan is to stubborn tho, he doesnt want to go away from plan A and doesnt work on a plan B.." Horan has made use of Darren Coen in both of his tenures. Holmes/Connelly and Rochford didn't even have him on the panel. There is also plenty examples of Horan trying a kicking game. Carney last weekend and Aidan in previous years.
It would probably be different if ROD and Conroy were available, but right now the running game is definitely our best option.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 420 - 08/06/2022 16:00:30
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Replying To Mayonman: "If ye can get O'Donoghue and COC on the pitch at the same time that will open up space for the others. Sometimes just having those threats draws attention and can give the so called lesser lights the extra half a second" With the system we play whoever is in the corners rarely gets early ball so only receives hand passes which are usually recycled back even by the likes of ROD and Cillian. Contrast that with what the U17s were doing the other night, where they were well structured at the back, played a good pressing game up front and were not shy to move the ball by foot to create the sort of space for the Hurleys, Clarke and other lads to beat their man and take a shot. But you know for sure that when these lads get to U20 the ones who'll be picked will be the players with most athletic ability. They'll also be conditioned to think possession first and last and we've seen the sort of game they'll be reduced to playing over the last couple of seasons. If we get the odd Conroy or ROD, who seem to be able to put in a shift and play a bit of ball, that's fortunate, but there's no place for the likes of young Towey who'd have been a star in times gone by. It's not just Mayo, it's the game. I think for example that Galway U20s showed signs of going the same direction this year.... perspiration over inspiration.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 08/06/2022 16:13:38
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Replying To Pericles: "With the system we play whoever is in the corners rarely gets early ball so only receives hand passes which are usually recycled back even by the likes of ROD and Cillian. Contrast that with what the U17s were doing the other night, where they were well structured at the back, played a good pressing game up front and were not shy to move the ball by foot to create the sort of space for the Hurleys, Clarke and other lads to beat their man and take a shot. But you know for sure that when these lads get to U20 the ones who'll be picked will be the players with most athletic ability. They'll also be conditioned to think possession first and last and we've seen the sort of game they'll be reduced to playing over the last couple of seasons. If we get the odd Conroy or ROD, who seem to be able to put in a shift and play a bit of ball, that's fortunate, but there's no place for the likes of young Towey who'd have been a star in times gone by. It's not just Mayo, it's the game. I think for example that Galway U20s showed signs of going the same direction this year.... perspiration over inspiration." I agree with what you're saying regarding the U20s and the solution surely is to leave Sean Deane with the minors next year as a good few of these will still be U17. After that move him if he's willing to the U20s to recieve this present bunch.
ponga (Mayo) - Posts: 649 - 08/06/2022 17:26:09
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Replying To ponga: "I agree with what you're saying regarding the U20s and the solution surely is to leave Sean Deane with the minors next year as a good few of these will still be U17. After that move him if he's willing to the U20s to recieve this present bunch." I'd like to see that Ponga as Deane seems to know how to get his team to play positive football. But I don't fully blame Sheridan for the horrible stuff being played by the U20s. I think that at U17 level the priority isn't to develop players for senior, so tactically there's probably a freer hand for the coaches. U20 though is different. I think success at that level is now pretty secondary, which doesn't mean we won't have some, but it'll be playing according to a plan which shows who'll have the required attributes for senior. In that regard I think stamina, speed and skill in that order are looked for. The odd exception like Paul Towey does get a look in and wouldn't be in the senior panel now if there was no hope of him being turned into an effective tackler. But his appearances with the seniors will be limited if he can't do some of what the likes of Cillian, Jason, ROD and Tommy have been doing. Darren Coen, who has a lot of years on Towey and has been around the block isn't industrious enough to get in before less talented finishers (we complain but can sort of understand it too). Kerry had a the same problem for years and not just with their forwards, but they seem to have re-discovered the value of defending since O'Connor came back.
What I'd like to see for Saturday:
Rob; Lee, Swanny, E Hession; Paddy, Stephen, Oisin; Aidan, Mattie; J Carr, DOC, Eoghan McL; E McHale, Jordan F, Cillian.
If Jordan Flynn isn't 100% then either Jack Carney or Aidan Orme to go into the full line, with Cillian moving to 14. Jason might get the nod too if he's back firing.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 09/06/2022 14:11:35
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I think this match against Kildare on Saturday will be a more straightforward win that what it was against Monaghan in Castlebar.
Of the top ten teams Kildare are the worst team defensively, a real opportunity for Mayo with their high energy running game in Croke Park to produce a high scoring total.
Gaa_lover (USA) - Posts: 3347 - 09/06/2022 17:11:11
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Replying To Pericles: "I'd like to see that Ponga as Deane seems to know how to get his team to play positive football. But I don't fully blame Sheridan for the horrible stuff being played by the U20s. I think that at U17 level the priority isn't to develop players for senior, so tactically there's probably a freer hand for the coaches. U20 though is different. I think success at that level is now pretty secondary, which doesn't mean we won't have some, but it'll be playing according to a plan which shows who'll have the required attributes for senior. In that regard I think stamina, speed and skill in that order are looked for. The odd exception like Paul Towey does get a look in and wouldn't be in the senior panel now if there was no hope of him being turned into an effective tackler. But his appearances with the seniors will be limited if he can't do some of what the likes of Cillian, Jason, ROD and Tommy have been doing. Darren Coen, who has a lot of years on Towey and has been around the block isn't industrious enough to get in before less talented finishers (we complain but can sort of understand it too). Kerry had a the same problem for years and not just with their forwards, but they seem to have re-discovered the value of defending since O'Connor came back.
What I'd like to see for Saturday:
Rob; Lee, Swanny, E Hession; Paddy, Stephen, Oisin; Aidan, Mattie; J Carr, DOC, Eoghan McL; E McHale, Jordan F, Cillian.
If Jordan Flynn isn't 100% then either Jack Carney or Aidan Orme to go into the full line, with Cillian moving to 14. Jason might get the nod too if he's back firing." Think you're right on most of that Pericles but listening to Sheridan with his "structure over chaos" mantra I feel he'll hold back players. I don't think any of the minors in this present team would object to the tracking back part as they are doing it to a degree already without the fear of expressing themselves.
Can't find much wrong with your team selection but not sure JH will go with that forward sextet, but who knows?
ponga (Mayo) - Posts: 649 - 09/06/2022 17:48:25
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Replying To Pericles: "With the system we play whoever is in the corners rarely gets early ball so only receives hand passes which are usually recycled back even by the likes of ROD and Cillian. Contrast that with what the U17s were doing the other night, where they were well structured at the back, played a good pressing game up front and were not shy to move the ball by foot to create the sort of space for the Hurleys, Clarke and other lads to beat their man and take a shot. But you know for sure that when these lads get to U20 the ones who'll be picked will be the players with most athletic ability. They'll also be conditioned to think possession first and last and we've seen the sort of game they'll be reduced to playing over the last couple of seasons. If we get the odd Conroy or ROD, who seem to be able to put in a shift and play a bit of ball, that's fortunate, but there's no place for the likes of young Towey who'd have been a star in times gone by. It's not just Mayo, it's the game. I think for example that Galway U20s showed signs of going the same direction this year.... perspiration over inspiration." Moving the ball by foot is the key and I think there may be structural/coaching issues there. I was at an U10 training session for one of Mayo's top clubs and the kids were doing a drill where they were only allowed hand pass over the bar.
I have no coaching badges or expertise in that area but that strikes me as wrong. You can teach anyone at any age how to hand pass but kicking skills are key at a young age. Yes, you may lose underage games but there will be a big payback when they are older.
Granted it was one training session at one club so maybe it was a one off. It just stuck with me!
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1829 - 10/06/2022 10:28:38
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