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Replying to Killing fields Question 'how does removing a referee for a year improve his standard of refereeing?'
Like all good politicians - I'm delighted you asked the question as it goes to the heart of the point i was trying to make.
The origin of this whole problem was a poor/bad decision by the referee - plain speaking he got a big call wrong. This is not a first year referee refereeing an u12 league match. this guy refereed the all ireland minor final in 2021. And the GAA need to be fair to all sides in this matter. just as they are rightfully saying to the players - your behaviour is not acceptable and you accept the punishment. They should be saying to all referees at this level - this is not the standard of refereeing i expect from you and as a result you are dropped for a period. No party should be above the law. We have all come across referees who act like god. I think such actions would send a good message to them too.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 05/01/2022 09:15:08
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After the abuse the referee got at the game and people here trying to defend the antics of the players why would anyone become a referee.
Can someone please name a referee that has never made a mistake. I would love to know one because I have never seen them.
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1669 - 05/01/2022 09:24:34
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If anything needs to be challenged it's the stupid Forward mark. It was always going to be controversial. But most people don't know the rules anyway
eoinog (Sligo) - Posts: 1669 - 05/01/2022 09:27:54
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Replying To Tarismelting22: "Doesnt need to - you dont touch a ref end off" You dont make a decision that wrong or bad either.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 643 - 05/01/2022 09:59:33
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Replying To KillingFields: "When is the ref going to come out and admit the huge mistake he made?
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 43 - 04/01/2022 17:52:09
What does that achieve and are all players, coaches meant to do the same all the time?
Counties struggling to get one ref for matches so the idea of appointing two is unrealistic. Another poster mentioned rugby and fewer incidents of controversy. Perhaps the fact that there's far fewer games played in rugby and rugby doesn't arouse supporters' passions in same way remotely. There are thousands of GAA clubs throughout Ireland, it means a lot to people. Rugby is a social sport for many.
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 406 - 04/01/2022 19:31:00
GAA is a social sport for nearly all players, coaches and fans as much as rugby is. Thats an illogical argument and yes there is far less games of rugby played every year compared to GAA but number of incidents like this dont happen anywhere near as much as they do in the GAA. Claiming rugby doesnt arouse supporters passions as much as GAA is horse ****. Care to show with links how that is true.
The two that put their hands on the referee need to take their punishment without question or appeal.
However there's talk of 6 months plus bans for a few who simply used foul language. If that's the case you've to ban about a third of the player base as using foul language with a referee when frustrated is rightly or wrongly, utterly commonplace in every GAA game. You cant give people a 6 month ban for an offence that hasn't been receiving a yellow card in games up until now
PressureKick (UK) - Posts: 125 - 04/01/2022 20:28:53it can be considered referee abuse. you just cant directly aim language at officials like that and get away with it. 6 month plus bans for foul language alone would be harsh but if it sent a message that that behaviour isnt accepted then its a price to pay
Since you've quoted a few people there, I'll reply to your bit where you quoted mine only.
'what about accountability for actions of players and officials and supporters against refs as well? What about doing something to help change culture of referee abuse?'
You might have missed the fact that the players who abused the ref physically and verbally have received hefty proposed suspensions, and rightly so. This thread was created specifically in relation to the suspensions. I don't get your 'what about'. I literally referred to it in my first point. Any abuse of an official is unacceptable. Hopefully these suspensions act as a deterrent to others.
Standard of refereeing is a separate issue. Unfortunately some referees make very poor mistakes. Brushing these under the carpet won't help anyone. It's in a ref's interest to be held accountable for his performance.
Also people saying they have sympathy for some M/M players doesn't mean they condone any abuse of a ref. A number of M/M players abused the ref. I have zero sympathy for any of them.
I do have sympathy for their full-back for example. Not only did he suffer the heartache of losing the match in such a fashion. He also tried to restrain his teammates at the end, which can't have been easy when emotions are raw.
Are we not allowed to feel sympathy for him and the others who did nothing wrong?
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1208 - 04/01/2022 20:47:00
Standard of refereeing isnt a separate issue. Its directly linked. Refs do make mistakes as theyre humans. Nobody is saying brush them under the carpet but have a proper system to help referees improve and be looked after better as the current set up is terrible for match officials.
Players put in ten times the commitment that officials do and despite what some of ye seem to think get a fair whack of stick themselves, some of the abuse these players get goes on for months after a game and is far worse than having a few fellas shouting at you for a few seconds.
Ideally they wouldn't have behaved as they did but they are human beings and their frustration was totally understandable. Lots of people here need to get out of their smug ivory towers.
On a side note, respect is a two way street. Don't talk about players needing to cop on and respect the officials if you're not gonna also mention the fact that alot of officials in all sports are quite pig headed and arrogant in how they deal with the players.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 956 - 04/01/2022 21:18:27
care to show how players put in ten times the commitment officials do? what refs get is lot more than few people shouting at them for a few seconds." 'Standard of refereeing isnt a separate issue. Its directly linked. Refs do make mistakes as theyre humans. Nobody is saying brush them under the carpet but have a proper system to help referees improve and be looked after better as the current set up is terrible for match officials.'
Which is exactly what I said. A proper system of accountability for refs, which will help them improve. You started going on a 'what about' the players being held to held to account, which has been done and was already mentioned.
I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2050 - 05/01/2022 10:42:15
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Replying To WanPintWin: "'Standard of refereeing isnt a separate issue. Its directly linked. Refs do make mistakes as theyre humans. Nobody is saying brush them under the carpet but have a proper system to help referees improve and be looked after better as the current set up is terrible for match officials.'
Which is exactly what I said. A proper system of accountability for refs, which will help them improve. You started going on a 'what about' the players being held to held to account, which has been done and was already mentioned.
I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up." Am Broadly in agreement with most of what you say. Every ref makes a few mistakes in any game and mostly they even out but what you dont want is a referee making a crucial mistake which directly effects the result. This is what happened in this game and in fairness the referee should be accountable for that. there was a similar situation in a club game in meath a few weeks ago when the referee restarted after half time with one team on the field. Fairness Accountability and transparancey is what is required from all sides.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 05/01/2022 12:37:08
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Replying To Claretandblue: "Counties struggling to get one ref for matches so the idea of appointing two is unrealistic. Another poster mentioned rugby and fewer incidents of controversy. Perhaps the fact that there's far fewer games played in rugby and rugby doesn't arouse supporters' passions in same way remotely. There are thousands of GAA clubs throughout Ireland, it means a lot to people. Rugby is a social sport for many." I agree there are less rugby games played but just one example I am reading the book by Keith Earl's at the moment is very interesting to see how he respects referee's in rugby because it was drummed into from a young as 6 while he also played soccer and was continually in trouble with the referee different culture
minor77 (Galway) - Posts: 224 - 05/01/2022 15:18:54
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Replying To Canuck: "Here we go again. "Their frustration is understandable " as an attempt to play it down. Frustration should not turn into abuse. Throw the book at these thugs. I can here it now. You lose these players to the game etc. etc. That attitude is what stops the clean up of these issues. If they take up another sport how will go for them, if they abuse?
Referee performances has been kicked around forever. The reality is they don't function well as a team of officials like the playing teams do. Either through the lack of training and the support they need today. First and formost it is suppose to be a team job and not hang draw and quarter the ref.
In the Ballygunner game the lines man called the red card to McGrath. Simple. If after consultation and he is the only one sees it, let him issue the red. He is supposed to know the rules ? We had posters and pundits vilifying Coughlan for getting slapped on the hand. A player who has taken more knocks (and given them) without ever complaining but okay to sully his name. John McGrath who was the decision maker ( no abuse or ownership applied here) got sent off here also on the instruction of the umpire but the ref had to take it here also. Put two refs on the field to begin with and no red cards without review. (either video or consultation).
The bottom line is mistakes will never be completely eradicated but abuse should not be tolerated." This thread is about abuse of referees in a specific game and the suspensions that will inevitably follow. Why (again) bring the Ballygunner game into the debate? As far as I know, there was no abuse of the referee from the Loughmore-Castleiney team or officials. Of course they were angered by some decisions that day but there have been no reports of any misconduct by the club. Yes, there was criticism of the officials on social media and by some high-profile ex-county players but that is completely different to what happened in Hyde Park. For some reason, you seem determined to prolong the Ballygunner debate even where it is totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion. By the way, what was the outcome of Coughlan's x-ray? Will he be able to play against Kilmallock?
midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 545 - 05/01/2022 16:38:02
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Like all good politicians - I'm delighted you asked the question as it goes to the heart of the point i was trying to make.
The origin of this whole problem was a poor/bad decision by the referee - plain speaking he got a big call wrong. This is not a first year referee refereeing an u12 league match. this guy refereed the all ireland minor final in 2021. And the GAA need to be fair to all sides in this matter. just as they are rightfully saying to the players - your behaviour is not acceptable and you accept the punishment. They should be saying to all referees at this level - this is not the standard of refereeing i expect from you and as a result you are dropped for a period. No party should be above the law. We have all come across referees who act like god. I think such actions would send a good message to them too.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 70 - 05/01/2022 09:15:08
yes they made a mistake but punishing a ref in fashion you suggest makes it harder for refs. refs need training and assessment and if making common mistakes at a level/grade then they are dropped to lower levels until they show they are ready to go to that level again ie if make big mistake or show mistakes in reffing a senior grade then go back to junior until they are assessed/coached and thought ready to return to senior grade but just stopping them from reffing cant ever be the solution
Which is exactly what I said. A proper system of accountability for refs, which will help them improve. You started going on a 'what about' the players being held to held to account, which has been done and was already mentioned.
I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1209 - 05/01/2022 10:42:15
refs are human they can make mistakes. if they forgot or dont pull something up then thats where proper ref training and assessment comes in. refs need to have development officers in every county who are full time(for smaller counties they could share a ref officer). these full time staff run monthly meetings where refs attend and discuss rules and management of games from a refereeing perspective. watch video clips from club and inter county games on specific areas of game and how best to manage this solutions. this gets you better refs. how would you suggest these issues are tightened up exactly?
Am Broadly in agreement with most of what you say. Every ref makes a few mistakes in any game and mostly they even out but what you dont want is a referee making a crucial mistake which directly effects the result. This is what happened in this game and in fairness the referee should be accountable for that. there was a similar situation in a club game in meath a few weeks ago when the referee restarted after half time with one team on the field. Fairness Accountability and transparancey is what is required from all sides.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 70 - 05/01/2022 12:37:08 how do you make refs better then? What do you suggest to make refs more accountable?
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3513 - 05/01/2022 17:38:34
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I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1209 - 05/01/2022 10:42:15
going on about making refs accountable is exactly why there is constantly incidents in the GAA with referees being chased/assaulted/abused.
Refs are accountable already but the process in which they are trained and how they learn and develop needs to be improved. Refs can make mistakes even on big issues/common rules. Main learning is that they dont make that mistake again and that comes from reviews with referee development officers/full time staff working solely with referees to coach and develop refs within a county.
How exactly would you tighten up these issues?
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3513 - 05/01/2022 19:29:43
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Replying To wexico15: "No matter how good or bad a referring performance is and counting in the high charged emotional element you simply can't put your hands on a official and once you do you've to face the consequences." Well then how come Brian Cody and Andy Moran escaped sanction for putting their hands on officials. There were three incidents that come to mind in the last couple of years and there was only one punishment dished out. That was to Dermot Connolly the best footballer I saw in the last twenty years and it hastened the end of his career as an inter county footballer. If you are a media darling you are treated differently and that is why i would be very fearful that they will throw the book at the MM players as the trial by media has already started
seventyniner (Galway) - Posts: 41 - 05/01/2022 19:53:37
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Replying To midlands: "This thread is about abuse of referees in a specific game and the suspensions that will inevitably follow. Why (again) bring the Ballygunner game into the debate? As far as I know, there was no abuse of the referee from the Loughmore-Castleiney team or officials. Of course they were angered by some decisions that day but there have been no reports of any misconduct by the club. Yes, there was criticism of the officials on social media and by some high-profile ex-county players but that is completely different to what happened in Hyde Park. For some reason, you seem determined to prolong the Ballygunner debate even where it is totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion. By the way, what was the outcome of Coughlan's x-ray? Will he be able to play against Kilmallock?" I used it as another example of blaming the referee for losing a game. Was that not the reason for the abuse in Hyde Park? If it had been some other more recent game witnessed with incorrect judgments I would have used that. Yes the ref was subject to verbal abuse within the grounds and too many are okay with that. So you don't know.
After all you do want to discuss the Loughmore-Castleiney/Ballygunner game. I don't know what your point about Coughlan is other than to cast further dispersions on him. Are you suggesting that John McGrath should only have been penalized if Coughlan's hand was broken? I personally don't know anything about his x-ray or if he had one, other than what was said in the grounds. I am not a Ballygunner member.
Let's have an adult conversation. There are many references to other examples in threads on here. If you or anyone else make a point on here I will always agree or disagree based my opinion of that view. Your reply is more about me than the subject of ref abuse that both of these examples had. Manifested itself in both different and similar ways.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2671 - 05/01/2022 19:55:10
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Replying To KillingFields: "I've seen numerous people say that because some M/M players were completely out of order, that we can't talk about the standard of refereeing. That's complete nonsense, and why I'm saying it's a separate issue. How will the standard of refereeing improve in general if referees aren't accountable for very poor errors?
A player performing poorly will be dropped. A good manager will give him feedback on why he was dropped, where he needs to improve, what he needs to learn etc.
Saying refs are human and make mistakes doesn't address specifics at all. Every ref will make plenty mistakes during a game. That's a given.
The issue is with the very clear mistakes and those which are critical. We never want to have a 2010 Leinster Final incident again. Someone above mentioned the issue is with the mark rule itself.
That's also nonsense. If a ref doesn't know the rules, especially one which has been so publicised, then it's a serious problem.
We had an incident of a ref not knowing a rule, when Kerry got a late goal to draw with Monaghan in 2018. The Monaghan player was penalised for playing the ball on the ground. In what was the last play, Kerry got possession from the free and worked a goal. The Monaghan player was entitled to play the ball as it happened, but the ref didn't know. These issues need to be tightened up.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1209 - 05/01/2022 10:42:15
going on about making refs accountable is exactly why there is constantly incidents in the GAA with referees being chased/assaulted/abused.
Refs are accountable already but the process in which they are trained and how they learn and develop needs to be improved. Refs can make mistakes even on big issues/common rules. Main learning is that they dont make that mistake again and that comes from reviews with referee development officers/full time staff working solely with referees to coach and develop refs within a county.
How exactly would you tighten up these issues?" The fact that the powers that be in the GAA don't make refs accountable in a transparent fashion when they make mistakes is probably a major contributing factor for some of the abuse that they get. There is an element of frustration there that when the referee makes a mistake there never appears to be any consequence for the ref and he is back out the next week. NOTE THIS is not an excuse for the behaviour of the M/M players in any way but it is the reality and the perception is that the referee just gets away with being crap.
I agree that YEs the referee needs to be reviewed / retrained and assisted to not make the same mistake but he also needs to be removed from circulation for a period of time the that level - if only for optics sake. Percetion is reality after all!!
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 05/01/2022 21:51:35
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Refs are accountable already but where is the evidence.? The referee accessors were brought into play a few years ago, can anyone put it out there the proof and the positives from the accessors report on controversial games. The higher the profile of the referee the less likely he is answerable to anyone.
I do not condone violence of any kind on the field of play towards referees or any official or players for that matter, however the rawness of some of our games and all the usual add on's takes over some peoples temperament so in a split second there's a rush of blood to the head along with a few unpleasant verbal's then the eye balling starts etc, etc, and do you know something, it's not going to change at all, there's a few reasons why, well the way I see it is
1. the rule book was never completed / signed off on. 2. The rules are no more than guide lines with built in escape clauses. 3. The rule book is simple yet it's too complexed to manage. 4 The implementation of the rules as required is, or can be political.
One of the most important ingredient gaelic games has / need is controversy, but controversy sometimes comes at a price, eg controversial cards, scores, decisions, failure to implement common sense rules if / when necessary,
No player that I know of ever togged out for a game simply to give the ref a hard time, likewise no referee will tog out complete with whistle to give a team a hard time, so with that said we'll leave well enough alone.
Happy and safe new year.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2909 - 06/01/2022 09:31:09
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What I don't like is how the Referee's report was made public before any disciplinary action was actually taken.
That is not right.
Moyle (Tipperary) - Posts: 86 - 06/01/2022 12:14:56
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Replying To Moyle: "What I don't like is how the Referee's report was made public before any disciplinary action was actually taken.
That is not right." Can I ask if there is a ruling on a specific time frame when a ref's report can be made public.?
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2909 - 06/01/2022 12:31:54
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Replying To Moyle: "What I don't like is how the Referee's report was made public before any disciplinary action was actually taken.
That is not right." Was it leaked on what's app rather than official corridors?
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 06/01/2022 12:55:46
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Replying To wexico15: "Was it leaked on what's app rather than official corridors?" It seems to be doing the rounds on whatsapp but it is interesting to see all the national newspapers had the report so it must come from officials? I think this is wrong, some of the players mentioned in the report might be innocent and be seeing their names dragged through the mud.
Also in the referees report, the referee said that the lines on the pitch were faint in areas? - is this the referees way of covering his back for missing the late mark?
Michaelcusack2022 (Galway) - Posts: 11 - 06/01/2022 14:29:47
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It is ridiculous that the report got leaked. Whatever happened to due process. It has become trail by social media with the outcome apparently already decided. It doesn't matter what happens at the Connacht hearings this is going to Croke Park.
GDL (Galway) - Posts: 725 - 06/01/2022 14:53:29
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Zero issue with the suspensions for the 2 that got physical but why the f**k didn't you give us the mark? And "what the f**k ref" being listed as verbal abuse . Come on , that's ridiculous and I'd hear that at much less controversial decisions .
No way in those circumstances the ref could say for certain that 5 players definitely verbally abused him. I think he just looked at the picture. And the proposed suspensions for verbal abuse are way too long
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1679 - 06/01/2022 19:10:53
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