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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Oh right, being honest I wasn't gone on to 1 that was linked to the league, so maybe Tommy Murphy 2.0 is the best of a bad lot, at least its every team in at the start of the allireland."
I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 359 - 19/09/2021 16:41:59    2381646

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Replying To omahant:  "Only positive is that the Tier 2 can earn promotion as well.
If they go back to the pre-Super 8 qualifiers, I would like Rd 1 to have the 16 weakest NFL non-Prov Finalists and strongest 8 getting the Rd 2 byes (Muns & Conn SF bye teams should not be exempt again from Rd 1)."
It's not really promotion if you only get one game in Tier 1 which will likely be against Kerry or Dublin or Mayo.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 359 - 19/09/2021 16:43:14    2381647

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse."
The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 55 - 19/09/2021 18:00:05    2381668

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "It's not really promotion if you only get one game in Tier 1 which will likely be against Kerry or Dublin or Mayo."
Just saying, if they go back....not that I'd want it.

I agree with prior poster - best middle of the road approach is the Jim McG Plan - 4 Prov Champs, NFL Top 11 non-Champs and prior year Tier 2 Champ.

The only change I'd make is to merge Divs 1 & 2 into two mixed quality groups of 8 - then, the top 11 would need to earn their KO place, unlike Jim McG Plan where all 8 Div 1 make it before kicking a ball.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2065 - 19/09/2021 18:07:15    2381670

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway."
That's a really good point.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3479 - 19/09/2021 18:48:13    2381677

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Replying To CeachtPeile:  "The flaw in linking the league and the provincials to the main championship is that it distorts the incentives for teams and in fact could lead to perverse incentives. In the McGuinness-type proposal the league happens first presumably and so the top 11 teams in the league are already guaranteed a place in the championship final-16 and are seeded 1-11. The four provincial winners, if not already qualified, are seeded 12-15, otherwise it's those in league positions 12-15 who qualify. Position 16 is taken by the Tier 2 winner.

Well, for teams who are 1-11, why bother then putting much of an effort into the provincial championships. It's only teams in positions 12-15 who are in potential danger and that's only in the case a team lower down wins a province.

In fact, bizarrely, it might be in a top team's interest to throw a match, either to be eliminated early to allow time to concentrate on the more important All Ireland series that's coming up or even to affect who qualifies for the final 16.

For example, say Kerry finish safely in the top 11 and Cork are at number 15 in the league rankings. So Cork are safely into the All Ireland final-16 provided no team from lower down in the league wins their province.
So say Kerry put in an effort and defeat Cork in the Munster semi-final. Cork though still remain in the competition due to their league placing. Now say Kerry play Tipperary in the final, there could be an incentive to lose to Tipp to eliminate Cork and have Tipp, a much weaker team based on league form, in the final 16. Even if there's a seeding boost for winning your province, that would be of minimal value to the top teams who will already have finished high up in the league and will be guaranteed a high seed position anyway."
It's a flawed proposal but only way to keep both camps happy. Provincial councils won't let prov championships be scrapped and they are the largest barrier to reform.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 359 - 19/09/2021 19:23:23    2381686

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "I think just linking League and Provincials to Championship will do. Jim McGuinness has a proposal which meets everyone in the middle. I remain uncovinced by the Tier 2. I think it only works when you have defined tiers with pro/rel between. Like club championships.

The GAA also has to look at disparity in funding and resources. Sligo has the same population as Roscommon. And having a strong soccer club in a crap league isn't an excuse."
I must look up Jim McGuinness"s proposal again, a lot of people seemed to like that 1.

And ya there needs to be a better spread of the money to the weaker counties but we all know that won't happen as its easier cut 16 counties lose.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13462 - 19/09/2021 19:25:30    2381687

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you have to laugh at all the sh*te on here the solution is already there the same format as every county uses for their own championship and the same format as the ladies championship and make sure it is marketed correctly. why try and reinvent the wheel. The only problem is that many counties and there supporters are living in cuckoo land and believe that junior and intermediate grade are beneath them and this is the real reason why there is such resistance to this format.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 87 - 19/09/2021 20:22:07    2381697

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Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "you have to laugh at all the sh*te on here the solution is already there the same format as every county uses for their own championship and the same format as the ladies championship and make sure it is marketed correctly. why try and reinvent the wheel. The only problem is that many counties and there supporters are living in cuckoo land and believe that junior and intermediate grade are beneath them and this is the real reason why there is such resistance to this format."
How do you market a lower tier effectively?.
If the GAA manages to make these new competitions even remotely as popular as the prime tournaments they'll have achieved what no other sporting body in earth has done.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 894 - 19/09/2021 21:48:23    2381721

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