National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To minorb2012:  "Well depending on which province you're in, determines how many games you have.
Leinster: 4/5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Munster: 5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Ulster: 3/4 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Connacht: 3/4 (Depending on NY & London's inclusion), 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ireland.

The All-Ireland game depends on which comp. you're.
His proposal says that the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup to be run in parallel and on the same format.
So only the 1st/2nd seeds get the extra game if they lose their Rnd 1 game.
I'd imagine Rnd 1A would be 1st v 2nd Seeds.

Rnd 1B would be 3rd v 4th seeds.
Rnd 2: Rnd 1A Loser v Rnd 1B Winner.
Q-Final: Rnd 1B Winner v Rnd 2 Winner.

That's the incentive for teams, to try and get seeded 1st or 2nd."
Something that's interesting about using the league for championship qualifying is that there's no guarantee of good championship performance being rewarded for the following year.

So like say Cavan won Ulster again from division 3 or Longford won the previous season's 2nd and got into the top tier.

Suppose they get all the way to an All Ireland semifinal or even final, they wouldn't be guaranteed a spot in the top championship. In fact they would have to win their province to get their spot.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's just a quirk of using a second tier competition to qualify teams for the top tier competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 18/11/2021 14:25:44    2389882

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Something that's interesting about using the league for championship qualifying is that there's no guarantee of good championship performance being rewarded for the following year.

So like say Cavan won Ulster again from division 3 or Longford won the previous season's 2nd and got into the top tier.

Suppose they get all the way to an All Ireland semifinal or even final, they wouldn't be guaranteed a spot in the top championship. In fact they would have to win their province to get their spot.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's just a quirk of using a second tier competition to qualify teams for the top tier competition."
Cavan and Longford got to how many All Ireland Finals or indeed Semi Finals in the last 50 years?
Meanwhile back to the real world..any whispers of what if anything is being put together for February Congress?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 52 - 18/11/2021 14:36:35    2389885

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Cavan and Longford got to how many All Ireland Finals or indeed Semi Finals in the last 50 years?
Meanwhile back to the real world..any whispers of what if anything is being put together for February Congress?"
I asked that same question, I wonder did the gaa bring back the same lads again that came up with the Ladt proposal or did they go for someone new?

I take it something will be brought up for voting in February and February is only 12 weeks away so they haven't much Time to throw something together considering the rubbish 1 they came with the Last time after 2 years.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13759 - 18/11/2021 14:52:52    2389888

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Cavan and Longford got to how many All Ireland Finals or indeed Semi Finals in the last 50 years?
Meanwhile back to the real world..any whispers of what if anything is being put together for February Congress?"
Cavan were in a few, but Corks have found themselves in division 3 recently, Tipperary are in division 4 now and have been in 2 semifinals in recent seasons. It may not be Cavan or Longford but the general case of a less traditional team having a good run but then missing out on the top tier the following season would happen at some stage.

This is the problem with some in the GAA they disregard the unlikely and have to scramble when it happens and they haven't prepared for it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 18/11/2021 15:27:05    2389895

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Cavan were in a few, but Corks have found themselves in division 3 recently, Tipperary are in division 4 now and have been in 2 semifinals in recent seasons. It may not be Cavan or Longford but the general case of a less traditional team having a good run but then missing out on the top tier the following season would happen at some stage.

This is the problem with some in the GAA they disregard the unlikely and have to scramble when it happens and they haven't prepared for it."
In the rare chance, it could get messy - give the AI SF 4 guaranteed Tier 1 berths ? - but single chance or double chance, and does another team get displaced, or Tier 1 grows beyond 16 teams ?

It's interesting - Proposal B gave Div 1 and Div 2 top 3 KO berths and the others in Divs 1 & 2 we're out - the problem is overcome with that recent proposal - giving those 8 teams a 2nd chance and the other 8 a KO seems to solve the '6th teams' issue. In sum, the top 13 all advance (plenty to play for in 8 2nd chances) and 3 div 3 teams get in with KO berths.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 18/11/2021 20:03:01    2389924

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Cavan were in a few, but Corks have found themselves in division 3 recently, Tipperary are in division 4 now and have been in 2 semifinals in recent seasons. It may not be Cavan or Longford but the general case of a less traditional team having a good run but then missing out on the top tier the following season would happen at some stage.

This is the problem with some in the GAA they disregard the unlikely and have to scramble when it happens and they haven't prepared for it."
In the rare chance, it could get messy - give the AI SF 4 guaranteed Tier 1 berths ? - but single chance or double chance, and does another team get displaced, or Tier 1 grows beyond 16 teams ?

It's interesting - Proposal B gave Div 1 top 5 and Div 2 top 3 KO berths and the others in Divs 1 & 2 were out - the problem is overcome with that recent proposal - giving those 8 teams a 2nd chance and the other 8 a KO seems to solve the '6th team' issue. In sum, the top 13 all advance (plenty to play for in 8 2nd chances) and 3 div 3 teams get in with KO berths.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 18/11/2021 20:04:31    2389925

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Replying To omahant:  "In the rare chance, it could get messy - give the AI SF 4 guaranteed Tier 1 berths ? - but single chance or double chance, and does another team get displaced, or Tier 1 grows beyond 16 teams ?

It's interesting - Proposal B gave Div 1 top 5 and Div 2 top 3 KO berths and the others in Divs 1 & 2 were out - the problem is overcome with that recent proposal - giving those 8 teams a 2nd chance and the other 8 a KO seems to solve the '6th team' issue. In sum, the top 13 all advance (plenty to play for in 8 2nd chances) and 3 div 3 teams get in with KO berths."
Yeah it's kind of why I think the championship should be 2 divisions of 2 groups of 8 and teams retain there place through championship performances.

Say you have 10 teams retain their place. Top 4 in each section then 2 winners from 5th v 6th placed playoffs. Include Tier 2 finalists also.

You have 4 slots left open based on Provincial championship performance.

Provincial champions not already qualified win their spot automatically. Then you have playoffs for remaining spots with teams given entry by filling through by performance.

1 Provincial finalists
2 Ulster/Leinster semifinalists
3 3rd placed in groups
4 4th placed in groups

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 19/11/2021 17:33:51    2390030

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Yup - we keep coming back to 2 divs with 2 groups of 8 in each - seems to be the way to go. With those top 4s advancing, I'd somehow like to reward coming 1st more than 4th (apart from seeding) - like a bye or 2nd chance.

It's funny how that latest Examiner idea of 4x8 with 3 up/3 down kinda achieves the 2 divs, 2 groups of 8 with different labels - each year, with div 1 top 5/div 2 bottom 5 (after promotion) continuing to be kept apart, the middle 6 of 16 would likely yoyo to provide a '2 groups of 8' fixture variety year-over-year. For the flatter 2 groups of 8 that you want, it's best to break up the top 5 playing head to head every year (although they are great pairings) - this could be done by say, having even placed teams (2nd, 4th, 6th) swap groups and the 'odds' staying.

If they keep the hierarchical 4x8, the Examiner idea is quite good - a la the JimMcG plan but with 8 2nd chances for incentive (win 1 of 2 games to go to AI KO QFs) and 8 others in KO (best to avoid, win 2 straight first to get to QFs).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 20/11/2021 13:51:07    2390084

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That Examiner Plan could have AI Playoff pairings as follows (based on the NFL, BEFORE settling 3up/3 down between divs):

Tier 1
Double Chance = 1v11, 2v10, 3v9 & 4v5 (4 winners host AI KO QFs, 4 losers host 'last 12' ties).
KO Chance= 6v19, 7v18, 8v17 & 12v13 (4 winners play away in 'last 12', 4 losers are out).

Tier 2
Double Chance = 14v27, 15v26, 16v25 & 20v21 (4 winners host T2 AI KO QFs, 4 losers host 'last 12' ties).
KO Chance= 22v32, 23v31, 24v30 & 28v29 (4 winners play away in T2 'last 12', 4 losers are out).
Tier 2 Champ either retains Div 2 berth or earns a 4th promotion spot (along with top 3 in Div 3, sending 13th ranked team down to Div 3).

Retain KO Provs with 4 Champs guaranteed extra Tier 1 low seed KO berth, if not qualified via the league.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 20/11/2021 14:34:05    2390091

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You could just play league and championship simultaneously. Keep the championship as it is in 2020/2021. Straight knockout Cup competition .Once every 50 years it will be novel like 2020. Otherwise it will be just a proper cup competition that will see the elite sides winning and end the rubbish that is the backdoor which has done nothing to help weaker counties (not MY opinion but what they have said). The league is the premier competition for the majority of counties but currently this has to be run off so a few counties can take all the limelight in the summer.

Run them simultaneously and every county can decide what competition they want to put their best efforts into. Every county will be playing all summer (almost and up to the point when club season starts). All will be playing at a a level they are happy with, all have a chance to win Sam (all are entered at least) and the provincial championships are kept. There is no change to structure as such. Just change the weeks that current comps are played.

I think this was trialled (in hurling at least) around 1996/97. I seem to remember Limerick v Galway in Ennis in a league final a few weeks after an All Ireland final .the current split season would make it easier to run as at that time Limerick/Galway had been dormant for weeks and clubs were in full swing then which made it awkward to keep it going. Those problems are gone now.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3876 - 21/11/2021 09:38:42    2390138

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Hurling has 5 league games so that players can be played "in a development manner". Hurling then has 4 or 5 championship games.
The National Football League could run similar divisions to hurling. The football provincial championships could be played out under the current knockout format.
24 teams could compete in the All-Ireland series in 4 groups of 6. The top 2 into quarter-finals. The top 4 guaranteed their Final 24 spot in the following year.
The 4 provincial winners for the current year and Tailteann Cup winner from the previous year should qualify for the Final 24. This would mean that one 5th placed team and four 6th placed teams would be in danger of dropping out of the Final 24 for the following year.
The four 5th placed teams could playoff with the 2 winners guaranteeing qualification for the following year. The two 5th placed losers can then playoff with the winner guaranteeing qualification and the loser being designated the 1st wild card for the following year.
The four 4th placed teams can playoff. The 2 winners can then playoff for the 2nd and 3rd wild cards. The two 5th placed losers can playoff for the 4th wild card.
The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th wildcards can qualify for the Final 24 in that order when provincial winners have already qualified.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6321 - 22/11/2021 09:57:08    2390267

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Correction to my previous post:
*The four 6th placed teams can playoff. The 2 winners can then playoff for the 2nd and 3rd wild cards. The two 6th placed losers can playoff for the 4th wild card.
The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th wildcards can qualify for the Final 24 in that order when provincial winners have already qualified.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6321 - 22/11/2021 10:20:24    2390272

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Hurling has 5 league games so that players can be played "in a development manner". Hurling then has 4 or 5 championship games.
The National Football League could run similar divisions to hurling. The football provincial championships could be played out under the current knockout format.
24 teams could compete in the All-Ireland series in 4 groups of 6. The top 2 into quarter-finals. The top 4 guaranteed their Final 24 spot in the following year.
The 4 provincial winners for the current year and Tailteann Cup winner from the previous year should qualify for the Final 24. This would mean that one 5th placed team and four 6th placed teams would be in danger of dropping out of the Final 24 for the following year.
The four 5th placed teams could playoff with the 2 winners guaranteeing qualification for the following year. The two 5th placed losers can then playoff with the winner guaranteeing qualification and the loser being designated the 1st wild card for the following year.
The four 4th placed teams can playoff. The 2 winners can then playoff for the 2nd and 3rd wild cards. The two 5th placed losers can playoff for the 4th wild card.
The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th wildcards can qualify for the Final 24 in that order when provincial winners have already qualified."
I don't like having 2 tiers with very different numbers.

If they go with 2 tiers I think there needs to be a good reason for them not to just be split down the middle or very close to it.

2 tiers of 16 makes a lot more sense than tiers of 24 and 8. Doing it your way makes the bottom tier a complete rejects competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 22/11/2021 14:01:17    2390324

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't like having 2 tiers with very different numbers.

If they go with 2 tiers I think there needs to be a good reason for them not to just be split down the middle or very close to it.

2 tiers of 16 makes a lot more sense than tiers of 24 and 8. Doing it your way makes the bottom tier a complete rejects competition."
11 teams compete in the hurling provincial championships and 6 in the Joe McDonagh Cup.
I'm leaning towards 16 plus 4 provincial winners plus Tailteann Cup winners.
I'm not against the McGuinness Kelly suggestion of 16. Some might find the top 11 from the league a harsh cull on the rest depending on the provincial winners.
The one disadvantage of using the league for championship is that it takes away games for development players.
Hurling has gone to 2 even groups in the league so as to give flexibility for being able to play players in a development manner!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6321 - 22/11/2021 16:54:10    2390365

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Replying To legendzxix:  "11 teams compete in the hurling provincial championships and 6 in the Joe McDonagh Cup.
I'm leaning towards 16 plus 4 provincial winners plus Tailteann Cup winners.
I'm not against the McGuinness Kelly suggestion of 16. Some might find the top 11 from the league a harsh cull on the rest depending on the provincial winners.
The one disadvantage of using the league for championship is that it takes away games for development players.
Hurling has gone to 2 even groups in the league so as to give flexibility for being able to play players in a development manner!"
How about 16 in each Tier, with an incentive by giving 8 a 2nd chance in each Tier - per my post earlier on this page?

I also had a prior post, with only the top 8 of 16 (Div 1, 2 groups of 8) going to Tier 1 playoffs (4 with 2nd chance) and bottom 8 (Div 1) merging with the top 8 of 16 (Div 2, 2 groups of 8) for a 'Mid 16' Tier 2 (8 with 2nd chance) and bottom 8 (Div 2) out, unless they are a KO Prov Champ.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 23/11/2021 14:40:34    2390459

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Replying To omahant:  "How about 16 in each Tier, with an incentive by giving 8 a 2nd chance in each Tier - per my post earlier on this page?

I also had a prior post, with only the top 8 of 16 (Div 1, 2 groups of 8) going to Tier 1 playoffs (4 with 2nd chance) and bottom 8 (Div 1) merging with the top 8 of 16 (Div 2, 2 groups of 8) for a 'Mid 16' Tier 2 (8 with 2nd chance) and bottom 8 (Div 2) out, unless they are a KO Prov Champ."
Seán Kelly and Jimmy McGuinness have a good championship structure to be fair.
The Round of 16 in both competitions could be played over 2 legs giving all a home game each before the quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6321 - 23/11/2021 15:46:39    2390469

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Seán Kelly and Jimmy McGuinness have a good championship structure to be fair.
The Round of 16 in both competitions could be played over 2 legs giving all a home game each before the quarter-finals."
Yeah, SK/JMcG are good ideas (not sure which is better, given Muns so easy and Uls so hard).
I still prefer a 2 chance/1 chance split so JMcG's top 11 would have more to strive for.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 23/11/2021 20:34:42    2390515

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Replying To omahant:  "Yeah, SK/JMcG are good ideas (not sure which is better, given Muns so easy and Uls so hard).
I still prefer a 2 chance/1 chance split so JMcG's top 11 would have more to strive for."
With the McGuinness suggestion, the provincial champions should be the top seeds. The other 12 should be placed in Pots 2, 3 and 4 on league placing.
Provincial winners should be drawn against a Pot 4 opponent. Pot 2 teams should be drawn against a Pot 3 opponent.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6321 - 24/11/2021 09:20:05    2390534

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