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Replying To Saynothing: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." Nonsense about teams finishing 6th in Div1, two years ago Mayo were relegated yet got to All Ireland final. All teams in Div 1 would fancy their chances for All Ireland no matter where they finished in league. As I said before, I'm no fan of soccer but in FA cup, top teams enter when lower teams fight it out to a certain stage."
It'd do weaker counties no good in the long run to have a handy route to getting to an All Ireland playoff.
Proposal B takes away the opportunity for weaker teams to earn their spot in the latter rounds on merit.
Clare, Fermanagh, Tipperary and Wexford have all gone this route in the past and created great stories which mean more than just getting a shortcut to that stage.
There's change needed.
I think mostly it was scheduling related though.
League and Provincials being scheduled together would make a much better season even with minor changes to the competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 28/10/2021 12:32:40
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You know a reason to be positive about getting a better change coming quickly down the line.
John Horan isn't going to be involved.
I'm sure he's a well intentioned and very passionate Gael but I think his Tailteann cup legacy was a complicating factor in getting the right change.
I feel a knockout cup competition for weaker teams is a bad idea, it was totally illogical that it was implemented at congress before the fixtures review committee having not completed their work.
If a new committee is put in place with more of a blank slate and without this interference I think they can come up with a lot better.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 28/10/2021 12:57:26
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Maybe we're looking at this wrong, to me we have a tiered competition which is the league which puts teams of equal abilities against eachother.
Then we have the allireland which is a cup competition which means its all in and strong teams and not so strong teams play eachother.
Maybe we just need to make the league more important than the championship, run off the provincials and allireland first straight knockout and then play the league during the summer, have paid holidays for the winners of each division." I completely agree and I have seen it mentioned before but a proposal of 3 divisions of 11 teams could work, this would guarantee everyone 10 games.
PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1653 - 28/10/2021 18:19:32
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The proposed league-based Championship - with its 4 divisions of 8 teams - is very hierarchical. In my opinion, this is unsuitable in Proposal B, as the match schedule places too much of a 'handicap' on teams, particularly in the highest division.
In addressing this, I offer a reasonable solution - the league structure could be flatter with a more modest handicap, as follows:
- Create 4 equally-ranked, mixed-quality groups (A to D), with 8 teams in each group.
- Draw 2 teams from each NFL division to create those groups (1 from the upper and lower halves of each division for greater balance).
- Each group is 'mostly' played as a 7-match round robin, EXCEPT the 'div 1v4 pairings' as likely mismatches, are replaced.
- Certain 'inter-group matches' are substituted for those 'div 1v4 pairings', and include all div 1v1 & 4v4 matchups 'from across paired groups AvD & BvC'.
- The top 4 in each group advance to the 16-team AIC Series, played under the Sam Maguire Cup 'last 16' format used in 2017 and 2022 (8 teams get a second chance).
-. Bottom 4 in each group to Tier 2 AIC, with similar format.
- Retain KO Prov Championships, played concurrently through the Summer, with 4 Champs guaranteed low seed AIC KO berths, if not qualified via the league phase.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 28/10/2021 18:59:05
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Replying To Rolo2010: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." Proposal isn't getting through until the 6th place is dealt with. Macedonia were brutal in the Euros so not sure that is the best argument."
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 28/10/2021 19:00:56
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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." The North Macedonia example was a Nations League D team qualifying for a 24 team Finals.I was actually in favour of that. The Proposal B was two Div.3/4 teams qualifying for the final 10. So making 20% of the teams in the All Ireland series
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 30 - 28/10/2021 19:23:48
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Replying To Whammo86: "Weaker counties blaming the provincials for being rubbish is a lot of guff though too.
These counties get opportunities in the qualifiers.
They get opportunities to develop and progress in the league.
Counties like Monaghan, Cavan until recently in the league and Roscommon have all made advances up through the leagues and maintained higher levels for a while.
At the end of the day there are 32 counties in the competition, someone has to be worst.
Just because you can't cut it with the big guys doesn't mean you should get an leg up." So 1 or 2 qualifier championship games is an opportunity? The league is done by the end of March, what about the next 2-3 months for these teams get hammered in their province then get hammered in the backdoor. The problem is already there players are walking away from intercounty in there mid 20s cause they decide the sacrifice on the rest of their lives isn't worth it for 2-3 championship games, if they had a guarantee of a higher volume a few more might hang around. That will only get worse next year when if players sign up with their county team for the league they won't be able to get a permit to head to the states for the summer. Personally I'd have no issue with a tiered structure where Div 3 or 4 teams couldn't win Sam Maguire but this easy route narrative yourself and a few others threw around about proposal B is greatly exaggerated in my view, with proposal B 14 of 16 Div 3 or 4 teams wouldn't have made the knockouts, with the outcry of you and a few others you'd swear half the teams in these divisions would have made the knockouts.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 29/10/2021 07:28:29
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Apologies for repeating myself but the secret ballot at Congress badly needs to change and this isn't just based on Saturday, Colm Collins present at Congress has strong inclinations 3-4 counties voted differently to how they were mandated. If delegates are voting the opposite to the wishes of their players, management or football board then that's arguably an abuse of power.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 29/10/2021 09:24:35
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Replying To wexico15: "Apologies for repeating myself but the secret ballot at Congress badly needs to change and this isn't just based on Saturday, Colm Collins present at Congress has strong inclinations 3-4 counties voted differently to how they were mandated. If delegates are voting the opposite to the wishes of their players, management or football board then that's arguably an abuse of power." The only people who can change that are the Congress delegates!!!
They rejected transparent voting a few years ago by a massive margin (was it 90%?)
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1397 - 29/10/2021 11:32:48
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I listened to Colm Collins, Clare Manager on the Football Pod on Off the Ball today. He spoke well about the vested interests of the GAA, especially in Ulster and especially the Provincial Councils. He referenced the Clare team of 1979 who were beaten by Kerry by 36 points. The newspapers said something had to change. 40 years later and nothing has. I fear that the same thing might happen here. It is imperative that we continue to press ahead with it, modify it if need be and get this over the line ASAP.
SerriedRanksofInisfail (USA) - Posts: 2 - 29/10/2021 11:35:27
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Replying To wexico15: "So 1 or 2 qualifier championship games is an opportunity? The league is done by the end of March, what about the next 2-3 months for these teams get hammered in their province then get hammered in the backdoor. The problem is already there players are walking away from intercounty in there mid 20s cause they decide the sacrifice on the rest of their lives isn't worth it for 2-3 championship games, if they had a guarantee of a higher volume a few more might hang around. That will only get worse next year when if players sign up with their county team for the league they won't be able to get a permit to head to the states for the summer. Personally I'd have no issue with a tiered structure where Div 3 or 4 teams couldn't win Sam Maguire but this easy route narrative yourself and a few others threw around about proposal B is greatly exaggerated in my view, with proposal B 14 of 16 Div 3 or 4 teams wouldn't have made the knockouts, with the outcry of you and a few others you'd swear half the teams in these divisions would have made the knockouts." I agree the schedule should change for league to not be played in February and March.
That fixes a lot of your problems without having to mess much with the actual competition structures.
I've a problem with division 2 teams also qualifying too and I've a problem with 5 from 8 teams making it from division 1.
It all just leads to a lack of intensity to the games which is the key ingredient making the leagues what they are.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 29/10/2021 11:48:30
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "The only people who can change that are the Congress delegates!!!
They rejected transparent voting a few years ago by a massive margin (was it 90%?)" Yeah I'm well aware of that, think it was a 86% vote in 2018, don't know if its possible but I think its that important that Congress shouldn't decide it and should be made at a bureaucratic level by president, director general etc. Dont know if thats possible unfortunately.
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 29/10/2021 12:38:33
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Replying To edu: " Replying To Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." The North Macedonia example was a Nations League D team qualifying for a 24 team Finals.I was actually in favour of that. The Proposal B was two Div.3/4 teams qualifying for the final 10. So making 20% of the teams in the All Ireland series"
Ireland got into a playoff via the Nations league pathway in spite of coming last in their group.
Just because some other sport implements a stupid format doesn't mean we should follow suit for our sport.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 29/10/2021 12:39:13
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Replying To wexico15: "Apologies for repeating myself but the secret ballot at Congress badly needs to change and this isn't just based on Saturday, Colm Collins present at Congress has strong inclinations 3-4 counties voted differently to how they were mandated. If delegates are voting the opposite to the wishes of their players, management or football board then that's arguably an abuse of power." You are correct, but unfortunately it is going to be the same Delegates voting the same way. Let's not forget Central Council the main decision body of the GAA were party to that motion been voted down. Some Delegates openly ridiculed the motion on the day.
The optics of it were shocking.
Ironically it was laughable to see very senior figures who watched that motion on Transparency get trounced, be on the end of it last week, hoping some Counties would back Proposal B & then watching as it was defeated & not knowing who voted against them.
That put down that time was a statement by those in power that they didn't want the CPA representing clubs & club players, at the top table. It's now clearly a Two Tier Association & the foremost important items for Croke Park are Finance, Inter County & the GPA. This was endorsed by the very public support of the President, ex President & the Ard Stiurothoir.
At this stage most people don't care about Transparency as they have lost interest & there is massive apathy. The whole structures are stale, full of people who are interested in furthering their own particular climb up the GAA ladder or using it as a platform for their local or national political careers. Genuine people won't go near it as the musical chairs at Board level is a farce.
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 29/10/2021 13:05:59
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One thing that definitely has to change is no votes should be secret ballot if each county can not stand up and vote openly on Gaa issues it goes to show they hiding something,,, there no way every county voted the way they said they would last weekend,,
Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 832 - 29/10/2021 13:36:43
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Replying To Whammo86: "I agree the schedule should change for league to not be played in February and March.
That fixes a lot of your problems without having to mess much with the actual competition structures.
I've a problem with division 2 teams also qualifying too and I've a problem with 5 from 8 teams making it from division 1.
It all just leads to a lack of intensity to the games which is the key ingredient making the leagues what they are." And instead of 1A/1B and 2A/2B, how about a 1-div 32-county, 4 balanced groups of 8 (my post on this page 51) ? I replace the 1v4 games with 1v1 and 4v4 pairings (div 1 teams play 3 head-to-head, 1 more than div 2 and div 3 play v div 1.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/10/2021 15:48:46
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To edu: "[quote=Tacaí Liatroma: "A lot of people (i.e. everyone) have been giving out about a system that would let the 25th best team in the country into the championship and the 6th best team would be excluded. And I'd agree: maybe have the top 6 teams in Div 1 and the top 2 in Div 2 (not top 3) and you might be getting somewhere. But regarding such a lowly Div 4 team in the championship, consider this. Other sports do something similar. A team from League D of the UEFA Nations League (North Macedonia) qualified for EURO 2020. UEFA explicitly set it up that way, and there was no clamour or rancour about the 40th (41st as it turned out) best team out of 55 in Europe being there (Iceland and Bosnia and Herzegovina (12th and 13th) missed out). In the 2020 Olympic golf events, the lowest ranked player in the field of 60 for the men's event was ranked 356th. The highest ranked non-qualifier other than those who excluded themselves or fell foul of Covid was 13th as far as I can see. For the women's, it was 454th (highest non-qualifier: 16th).
A team coming 6th in Div 1 probably knows they're not at All-Ireland winning level yet, but I'm sure they'd be relieved to avoid relegation; I'd imagine Div 2 would have been a dogfight under Proposal B. But as a Leitrim fan, I'd probably rather my team were 6th in Div 1 than only just getting out of Div 4, even if it meant being out of the championship. And under proposal B, the Div 4 winners would play a team from Div 2 and probably lose, but they'd have had a crack at it. Remember how the Div 4 winners used to go into the quarterfinals of the National Football League? Laois even won it from Division 3 once. Anyway." The North Macedonia example was a Nations League D team qualifying for a 24 team Finals.I was actually in favour of that. The Proposal B was two Div.3/4 teams qualifying for the final 10. So making 20% of the teams in the All Ireland series"
Ireland got into a playoff via the Nations league pathway in spite of coming last in their group.
Just because some other sport implements a stupid format doesn't mean we should follow suit for our sport."]Best kept secret - the GAA designed it !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/10/2021 15:50:17
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Replying To moc.dna: "You are correct, but unfortunately it is going to be the same Delegates voting the same way. Let's not forget Central Council the main decision body of the GAA were party to that motion been voted down. Some Delegates openly ridiculed the motion on the day.
The optics of it were shocking.
Ironically it was laughable to see very senior figures who watched that motion on Transparency get trounced, be on the end of it last week, hoping some Counties would back Proposal B & then watching as it was defeated & not knowing who voted against them.
That put down that time was a statement by those in power that they didn't want the CPA representing clubs & club players, at the top table. It's now clearly a Two Tier Association & the foremost important items for Croke Park are Finance, Inter County & the GPA. This was endorsed by the very public support of the President, ex President & the Ard Stiurothoir.
At this stage most people don't care about Transparency as they have lost interest & there is massive apathy. The whole structures are stale, full of people who are interested in furthering their own particular climb up the GAA ladder or using it as a platform for their local or national political careers. Genuine people won't go near it as the musical chairs at Board level is a farce." Given the demographics, how will inter-county imbalance be resolved- re-carve the nation into roughly equally populated units to create balanced competition ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/10/2021 16:04:58
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Andy Moran on OTB says he want a round robin stage for Leitrim, Sligo, and London at the start of Connacht next year if there isn't going to be any change. It would at least provide 2 extra games and they can still drop into the qualifiers or Tailteann Cup next year.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 29/10/2021 17:06:44
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Offering AI places to Div 3 and 4 teams is the type of nonsense that delays real change. Its a patronizing sop to weaker counties.
The only way to make a second tier competition relevant is to exclude these teams from competing in the AI series within that year. Then it becomes a real contest and the reward for winning is a shot at the big time next year. The celebrations following every Intermediate championship win over the next few weeks prove that. The achievement is the promotion, not just the cup itself. Grade 2 final on the same day as the All Ireland final by definition would be a great help. Counties like Antrim and Fermanagh and Monaghan will have to see sense on this
As for the provincials, the inequities in starting point do not need repeating. However, a link to AI will be needed to get change. In my view, the provincials should become the qualifiers/back door/wild card route into the knockout stages. To curb the risk of making things too easy for some counties, only 2 places from provincial winners should be reserved for the final knockout places.
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1056 - 29/10/2021 19:47:07
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