National Forum

Dubs V Mayo

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "Dubs only took proper control in the last ten in 2020, whereas they only got a slight scare at the end in 2018."
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Tbf the 2018 final was over at HT. Had it not been or the outcome been different we might have heard a lot more about the stone cold black card Lane let Colm Cavanagh away with just before the break. Dubs were 2 goals up at that stage and it was obvious (to all the grown up neutrals in the pub I watched in) that Lane was trying to keep the game alive as a contest - Cavanagh being perceived as one of Tyrone's main men. Probably one of the more blatant ones since Enright in 2014 but it wasn't going to affect the outcome.
Which makes the Jesuitical debate on the "Rules" etc somewhat surreal - it rather misses the elephant in the room.
And no, I'm not having a pop at Tyrone or Lane.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 19/08/2021 12:02:58    2373004

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Replying To cluichethar:  "I wouldn't put much into what David Coldrick does, for me the man isn't a very good refree.
Still the rule says shoulder to shoulder not shoulder to chest. A frontal challenge is a cardable offence"
That's all fine and dandy, your rating of Coldrick, & I get the point you are making. However the fact remains that Coldrick was reffing his 4th AIF and is down for the Kerry Tyrone Semi.

But salvation is at hand in the shape of Marty Duffy who this spring was appointed head of the Central Referees' Appointments Committee. Some Crac eh?
Marty is outstanding in his field; analogous to Dessie Dolan in co commentary or Ben Gilroy in epidemiology.
Ben has many followers on HS apparently and I hope my bracketing him with Marty makes clear my sincere belief that things are going to improve.

timmyhogan (UK) - Posts: 290 - 19/08/2021 12:58:04    2373025

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Replying To jacktheDub:  "McConville was laughable on RTE radio 1 commentary he was a canary/ cheer leader for Mayo there was zero objectivity from him you knew exactly where his loyalties lay through out that game, the exact same with McStay on live commentary Mayo man who had zero objectivity."
Are ye wise? Mc Stay seemed to have his Dublin hat on during commentary. Mc Conville as usual called it fairly.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2291 - 19/08/2021 13:15:24    2373036

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Are ye wise? Mc Stay seemed to have his Dublin hat on during commentary. Mc Conville as usual called it fairly."
Dubs have different eyes and ears than everyone else didn't you know.

They'll be telling you next that they weren't financially doped. Lol.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 13:46:22    2373055

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Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 19/08/2021 13:49:11    2373057

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For Hennelly's first point McStay had decided it would be missed and damage Mayo morale before the kick was taken. He goes way overboard in trying to not appear biased.

Immer (Mayo) - Posts: 33 - 19/08/2021 13:55:51    2373060

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "It's important for me to point out why Sindar is wrong when he says "It is never a red card in GAA for unintentional action".

I know Sindar is a referee but he's not an Inter-County referee and the guidelines which were brought in back in 2018 are quite specific regarding contact to the head.

Perhaps Sindar is not up to date with the guidelines and perhaps he has no reason to be.

So what Sindar is claiming here leaves him zero wiggle room "It is never a red card in GAA for unintentional action"

So by claiming this Sindar is saying there is absolutely no sanction on a player who makes contact with the head of an opponent because the tackler mistimes what would normally be a legitimate tackle.

And I am saying that this is absolutely not correct, the sanction is a straight red card.

And whether Small meant it or not is totally irrelevant, he mistimed it and made contact with the head of McLoughlin and the guidelines set out are clear in relation to head contact, red card.

I have no problem in backing this up but I will let Sindar respond."
I'm not a referee like Sindar is, well he is actually more than that he is a referee's tutor as well, but I don't need to be a referee to be able to read and understand rules and I really cannot understand why he has any doubt at all whether there is anything in the rule book which would have allowed the ref to send Small off and I'll explain why clearly.

So this was my view on page 55 of the thread:

"Small illegal charge on E McLoughlin, a red card all day long. It became illegal once contact was made with the head, regardless of intent"

And I stick by that completely.

Had Small connected with McLaughlin's shoulder then it was legal but when he connected with his head it became illegal. Common sense really.

But Sindar disagreed with me and said:

"As for your Small comment "regardless of intent" you are completely wrong again"
"It is never a red card in GAA for unintentional action"


"I work from the rule book and keep myself very much up to date. When other refs ask me about scenarios (I'm a refs tutor also) I refer them to what the rules state and not what we think the correct action should be. I invite you to do the same."

So I took him up on his invite to look at the rules even though I knew the rule in any case. So what the rules list as Immediate Ordering Off Infractions (Red Cards):

1. Striking or attempting to strike with arm, elbow, hand, knee or head.
2. Kicking or attempting to kick with minimal force or with force or causing injury.
3. Behaving in any way which is dangerous to an opponent.
4. Spitting at an opponent.
5. Contributing to a melee.
6. Stamping.
7. Inflicting injury recklessly.
8. Abusive language towards a Referee, Umpire, Linesman or Sideline Official.

Now there is no doubt that John Small was reckless and there is no doubt that McLoughlin was injured and therefore there is no doubt a red card should have been shown.

Had Small connected with McLaughlin's shoulder and even dislocated his shoulder even though McLoughlin would have been injured we could not say he was injured recklessly because the tackle was legal, but that was not the case,

Small made contact with McLoughlins head and at that point the tackle went from been legal to illegal and intent does not come into it.

It is totally immaterial what Small intended to do, society does not work that way, where a person's good intentions are not punished by their own failure to execute their good intentions properly and the responsibility lay totally with Small to execute a legal tackle properly and that he did not do.

So we have established easily that the ref could and should have sent Small off within the basic disciplinary rules of the game, we don't need to be referees to quickly establish that and therefore I was 100% correct to say "regardless of intent" in my post.

The final point regarding my contradiction of Sindar is this, he maintains "It is never a red card in GAA for unintentional action."

He is also wrong here as well because we have established that a player can be sent off for Inflicting injury recklessly.

So if we assume that Small went in to execute a legal tackle but he recklessly injured McLoughlin by his own failure to execute the tackle properly, then we must also say that Small did not intend to injure McLoughlin because a reckless action by the letter of the law is not an intentional action, it is a step down the ladder from intentional.

So therefore the action of Inflicting injury recklessly while being unintentional is still a red card offence and therefore Sindars view that "It is never a red card in GAA for unintentional action" is totally incorrect."
Fair play for going to the rule book. I didn't think you would :)

However, did you read my post at 18/08/2021 15:40:46? It's is absolutely clear that there must be intent (deliberate) and I quoted exactly where that comes from. Also, I never said that the Small incident was not a sending off.

I think you seem to think that intent (deliberate) and reckless are completely seperate. They are not but I understand the confusion as it comes up at ref forums/sessions now and then.

I'm not trying to be smart here but we need to define the term reckless: "without thought or care for the consequences of an action" - Oxford English Dictionary.

Let's assume Small intended to execute a legal shoulder which he obviously didn't achieve but did not intend to connect with the head. In this case, intent does not refer to connecting with the head but refers to the attempt at a legal challenge that was executed without care (reckless) and caused injury which is a red card offence.
It was reckless because he knew 1) he was coming in with a lot of force and could connect with the head, 2) the player was in a vulnerable position, and 3) there were other ways he could have legally tackled the player.

Let's take different example which might help. A player is bending down to pick up a loose ball. An opponent comes in with the boot and force to the ball. He connects with the player's head in clearing the ball. His intent was to clear the ball but he executed it recklessly and caused injury - red card.

In relation to the rulebook, It is not perfect. It can be quite difficult to understand at times and wording is all important. I have read it cover to cover dozens of times and referred to it hundreds of times when I had doubts. Any ref who doesn't cannot possibly understand it to the level required. I ref Ladies also and that rulebook is much clearer and understandable.

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 19/08/2021 13:56:38    2373061

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "Dubs have different eyes and ears than everyone else didn't you know.

They'll be telling you next that they weren't financially doped. Lol."
Muppet.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1991 - 19/08/2021 13:56:39    2373062

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually."
Dublin were 5 points up with 63 minutes on the clock, cruising to victory.

Dublin were never as good as many people thought, the margin of victory in most of their All-Irelands will tell you that.

It was dark arts which got them over the line, not footballing ability.

Greatest team ever ?

Total nonsense.

I mean a county that has a population of 2 million should be winning every All-Ireland so the real heroes in the last few years have been Mayo and Kerry who ran them so close with relatively tiny populations.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 19/08/2021 14:11:41    2373068

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually."
I agree with you regarding the unsurprising nature of the defeat. However, I still think the squad were capable of performing far better this year. Conor McKeon on Off The Ball was saying that, due to the departure of so many veterans, Jim Gavin would not have won the semi-final just gone. I heartily disagree. Furthermore, I believe the corrollary to be true: Dessie Farrell would not have won the tight matches v Mayo throughout the Gavin era.

Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 19/08/2021 14:12:04    2373069

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Replying To Mailman98:  "Flynn was 100% right. McConville since his road to Damascus moment has become an insufferable yes man. He's everywhere. He even turned up on Prime Time with his pitiful views on the border issue. I can remember a few of his teammates who weren't to worried about the health of their opponents. There's certainly at least one Mayo player who'd risk the life of an opponent and that's the sort of player you need to win the big prizes. If a player on a team we support did what Small or O'Hora did last Saturday and got away with it we'd give it a big cheer and say he's a mighty bit of stuff. Let's all admit it and move on."
You're talking absolute guff, just like Flynn. Anti-Dublin media bias? Are you for real? They are the most lauded team to ever play the game, and rightly so. Then Flynn says there is an anti-Dublin bias because a few pundits and journalists have the gall to call out the poor discipline of the Dublin team in the 2nd half last Saturday? There's some big conspiracy when you point out that the likes of McCarthy lost their discipline? All the country are against the poor little Dubs because people are saying Small should've seen the line? Pure nonsense.

McConville didn't call out Flynn about the duty of care comment, he just quoted the rule book and Flynn tried to belittle him for that. I am calling Flynn out for his comment about players not having to give a damn about other players on the pitch. It is absolutely disappointing and outright stupid to suggest that the ref is the only one responsible for the players' health and safety on the pitch. Of course I'd be delighted with Neil McGee if he times a shoulder perfectly but if he breaks a man's jaw he should be sent off and there can be no questions about it. From a Donegal POV McGee did something disgraceful down in Tralee in a bad tempered league match and rightly saw the line. Saying players' don't have a duty of care to one another just means "do absolutely everything you can get away with" which is a nonsense. There's a world of difference between winding up your opponent to try and gain an advantage and niggling at them and then breaking bones and having them carted off the pitch on a stretcher.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 19/08/2021 14:14:55    2373074

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Replying To jacktheDub:  "McConville was laughable on RTE radio 1 commentary he was a canary/ cheer leader for Mayo there was zero objectivity from him you knew exactly where his loyalties lay through out that game, the exact same with McStay on live commentary Mayo man who had zero objectivity."
He couldn't contain himself. He loves Mayo or any Ulster team playing against any other team not from Ulster. Same as Canavan, no objectivity at all.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4743 - 19/08/2021 14:17:00    2373075

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually."
Totally agree. We were lucky to get as far as we did with the win last year. The squad has been ravaged by changes in the past 6 months and we've been in transition since last year's final. We all saw it coming in Dublin, the wheels had come off the juggernaut. You can have all the financial doping in the world and it won't get you a great team, just ask Kerry. We'll be back at some stage though.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4743 - 19/08/2021 14:20:40    2373077

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually."
What do you attribute this regression to? Is the regression due to retirements or would you attribute most of the reason to the loss of Jim Gavin. It is interesting that you point to the regression setting in after the 5 in a row, this would indicate that you think Jim Gavin stepping away as the primary reason why Dublin have regressed. Like yourself, I am surprised that people were shocked that Dublin lost last weekend. Their performances this year and towards the end of last year pointed to the fact that the team was operating on borrowed time and that something had changed in those 18 months. It will be interesting to see if the players who have stepped away, who are young and experienced enough rejoin the panel. Dublin and the manager definitely need the likes of Mannion and McCaffrey back as the squad seems very light weight when you look at the substitutes bench last weekend.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 2099 - 19/08/2021 14:20:47    2373078

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "Dublin were 5 points up with 63 minutes on the clock, cruising to victory.

Dublin were never as good as many people thought, the margin of victory in most of their All-Irelands will tell you that.

It was dark arts which got them over the line, not footballing ability.

Greatest team ever ?

Total nonsense.

I mean a county that has a population of 2 million should be winning every All-Ireland so the real heroes in the last few years have been Mayo and Kerry who ran them so close with relatively tiny populations."
Terrible isn't it pal.

I mean no wonder China has won all them world cups with their vastly larger population to everyone else

Oh wait.........

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 19/08/2021 14:21:08    2373080

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Are ye wise? Mc Stay seemed to have his Dublin hat on during commentary. Mc Conville as usual called it fairly."
McConville is brilliant as he doesn't pader to dublin like the rest of them and he made total dust of paul flynn on off the ball fair play to him.

Mcstay was a disaster, afraid to call the dublin hits but I gaurentee he'll be letting rip whether its Tyrone or Kerry in the final, I take it dessie Dolan will be Co commentator for Tyrone V Kerry.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 19/08/2021 14:23:03    2373082

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Replying To Gavvygavgav:  "I agree with you regarding the unsurprising nature of the defeat. However, I still think the squad were capable of performing far better this year. Conor McKeon on Off The Ball was saying that, due to the departure of so many veterans, Jim Gavin would not have won the semi-final just gone. I heartily disagree. Furthermore, I believe the corrollary to be true: Dessie Farrell would not have won the tight matches v Mayo throughout the Gavin era."
Fair point.

I think Jim Gavin will only truly be appreciated/recognized for his genius in years to come.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 19/08/2021 14:25:02    2373083

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Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Its gas how everyone on here is in complete shock at Dublin losing the weekend and how poor they played, when all year all us Dubs were calling it. And being accused of bull sh*ting people and being cute hoors etc.

None of us Dubs are that shocked to be honest. We have been steadily regressing since our 5 in a row heroics.

We managed to squeeze another all irleand out of the team last year and make it 6, but the writing was on the wall.

EVERYTHING comes to an end eventually."
But you've won the previous 6 all Irelands and for every one of those seasons most dubs in here, if not all, were prophesying defeat. You were bound to be right eventually.
And make no mistake, there'll be more all Irelands for this Dublin team.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 19/08/2021 14:27:58    2373086

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Replying To Joxer:  "He couldn't contain himself. He loves Mayo or any Ulster team playing against any other team not from Ulster. Same as Canavan, no objectivity at all."
Nobody enjoyed watching the Dublin Globetrotters as much as myself but Holy God, talking about anti Dublin media, serious.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2291 - 19/08/2021 14:34:19    2373088

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Replying To avonali:  "Muppet."
Who is this troll?

Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 383 - 19/08/2021 14:37:48    2373090

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