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With all the talk over the years of having a "Champions League" format for the football championship it got me thinking about how the new UEFA Champions League format would work for football. This is where all 36 the teams play 10 matches against different teams seeded to be as fair as possible to all. They are then ranked in a single league table 1-36 with the knockout competition then following on.
I think a format like this would work excellently for the Football Championship. It would be extremely flexible and give all teams solid games over the summer. It would also allow for the flexibility of having provincial finals but without the provincial knock out games. Let me explain.
1. Decide how many matches you want each team to have. Lets say 6 each. Every team plays 6 teams seeded to play a similar strength of opponents. (You seed 1-3 and make sure you play 2 #1 seeds; 2 #2 seeds and 2 #3 seeds)
2. Put the teams in a league table
3. The top 2 teams from each traditional province play a provincial final. This could either feed to the All Ireland Knock out series into a quarter final or be a stand alone final with no impact to the All Ireland.
4. Play a knockout based on the rankings from the first stage
This could either be a single table with all 32 teams in it or split into a Top Tier / Bottom Tier structure with any split of teams in each.
Personally I'd split the teams into tiers with 16 teams each. Play off provincial finals with the winners going into All Ireland 1/4 finals. Then allow the next 7 seeded teams from tier 1 and the top team from tier 2 (the top 2 would play off) to play a preliminary 1/4 final to join them. With a tier 2 competition knock out to be run at the same time. 2 up / 2 down each year.
I'd also add rugby style bonus points system with a bonus point for 3 goals and / or a narrow defect.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 25/06/2021 10:47:37
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Replying To brianb: "With all the talk over the years of having a "Champions League" format for the football championship it got me thinking about how the new UEFA Champions League format would work for football. This is where all 36 the teams play 10 matches against different teams seeded to be as fair as possible to all. They are then ranked in a single league table 1-36 with the knockout competition then following on.
I think a format like this would work excellently for the Football Championship. It would be extremely flexible and give all teams solid games over the summer. It would also allow for the flexibility of having provincial finals but without the provincial knock out games. Let me explain.
1. Decide how many matches you want each team to have. Lets say 6 each. Every team plays 6 teams seeded to play a similar strength of opponents. (You seed 1-3 and make sure you play 2 #1 seeds; 2 #2 seeds and 2 #3 seeds)
2. Put the teams in a league table
3. The top 2 teams from each traditional province play a provincial final. This could either feed to the All Ireland Knock out series into a quarter final or be a stand alone final with no impact to the All Ireland.
4. Play a knockout based on the rankings from the first stage
This could either be a single table with all 32 teams in it or split into a Top Tier / Bottom Tier structure with any split of teams in each.
Personally I'd split the teams into tiers with 16 teams each. Play off provincial finals with the winners going into All Ireland 1/4 finals. Then allow the next 7 seeded teams from tier 1 and the top team from tier 2 (the top 2 would play off) to play a preliminary 1/4 final to join them. With a tier 2 competition knock out to be run at the same time. 2 up / 2 down each year.
I'd also add rugby style bonus points system with a bonus point for 3 goals and / or a narrow defect." I've suggested similar but not quite the same previously. I don't think it'd be popular at the minute with the average GAA fan though. Maybe if the Champions League format works well and we get more familiar with that style of competition. I think at the minute regular group formats would be better received.
2 groups of 8 or 4 groups of 4 split into 2 tiers would work well for me.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 25/06/2021 14:02:15
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Replying To brianb: "With all the talk over the years of having a "Champions League" format for the football championship it got me thinking about how the new UEFA Champions League format would work for football. This is where all 36 the teams play 10 matches against different teams seeded to be as fair as possible to all. They are then ranked in a single league table 1-36 with the knockout competition then following on.
I think a format like this would work excellently for the Football Championship. It would be extremely flexible and give all teams solid games over the summer. It would also allow for the flexibility of having provincial finals but without the provincial knock out games. Let me explain.
1. Decide how many matches you want each team to have. Lets say 6 each. Every team plays 6 teams seeded to play a similar strength of opponents. (You seed 1-3 and make sure you play 2 #1 seeds; 2 #2 seeds and 2 #3 seeds)
2. Put the teams in a league table
3. The top 2 teams from each traditional province play a provincial final. This could either feed to the All Ireland Knock out series into a quarter final or be a stand alone final with no impact to the All Ireland.
4. Play a knockout based on the rankings from the first stage
This could either be a single table with all 32 teams in it or split into a Top Tier / Bottom Tier structure with any split of teams in each.
Personally I'd split the teams into tiers with 16 teams each. Play off provincial finals with the winners going into All Ireland 1/4 finals. Then allow the next 7 seeded teams from tier 1 and the top team from tier 2 (the top 2 would play off) to play a preliminary 1/4 final to join them. With a tier 2 competition knock out to be run at the same time. 2 up / 2 down each year.
I'd also add rugby style bonus points system with a bonus point for 3 goals and / or a narrow defect." Not a fan of the Swiss format. I'd rather split the the counties into a knockout 2 tier championship based on league placings and move the provincials to the start of the year.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 25/06/2021 23:31:27
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It is a shame that the best football compeition currently (ulster championship) will get inevitably scrapped due to the other farcical provinces. I have no interest in the all ireland this year. Ulster is where it is at with 4 teams have real ambitions of winning it with the most entertaining games as shown during this years league.
bobo91 (Monaghan) - Posts: 16 - 26/06/2021 11:12:14
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Thanks for your comments. I think its fair to say there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for this - having said that there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for any proposed change while everyone seems to agree something must change.
I think the format has a lot of benefits; its flexible to do whatever you want with it. As I see it the key changes wanted are:
1 - More games in the summer for all counties
2 - A second tier championship but only if it has a way into the main Sam Maguire championship for the current year but with a final played on All Ireland final day
3 - An element of Provincial Competition but without the blowouts typically seen primarily in the provincial competitions
This would deliver on each of those points as well as keeping the majority of counties involved in football into July and August.
A brief calendar would look something like this with 2 tiers:
May - 3/4 games for all counties
June - 3/4 games for all counties
July - Week 1 - Provincial final for top two ranked teams from each Province + Tier 2 playoff for All Ireland spot
July - Week 2/3 - preliminary quarter final for 7 top ranked non provincial champions and Tier 2 play off winner; plus preliminary quarter final for Tier 2 cup & relegation playoffs for bottom Tier 1 teams (2 down)
July Week 4 - All Ireland Quarter finals (4 prelim winners & 4 provincial champions) & Tier 2 Quarter Finals
August - Semi Finals and Final in both All Ireland and Tier 2 Cup (winners of Tier 2 cup join play off winner in Tier 1 next year)
I'd summarize by saying that we'd basically be replacing the early rounds of provincial action and the qualifiers in favour of a seeding competition where everyone is involved.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 28/06/2021 11:21:29
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Replying To brianb: "With all the talk over the years of having a "Champions League" format for the football championship it got me thinking about how the new UEFA Champions League format would work for football. This is where all 36 the teams play 10 matches against different teams seeded to be as fair as possible to all. They are then ranked in a single league table 1-36 with the knockout competition then following on.
I think a format like this would work excellently for the Football Championship. It would be extremely flexible and give all teams solid games over the summer. It would also allow for the flexibility of having provincial finals but without the provincial knock out games. Let me explain.
1. Decide how many matches you want each team to have. Lets say 6 each. Every team plays 6 teams seeded to play a similar strength of opponents. (You seed 1-3 and make sure you play 2 #1 seeds; 2 #2 seeds and 2 #3 seeds)
2. Put the teams in a league table
3. The top 2 teams from each traditional province play a provincial final. This could either feed to the All Ireland Knock out series into a quarter final or be a stand alone final with no impact to the All Ireland.
4. Play a knockout based on the rankings from the first stage
This could either be a single table with all 32 teams in it or split into a Top Tier / Bottom Tier structure with any split of teams in each.
Personally I'd split the teams into tiers with 16 teams each. Play off provincial finals with the winners going into All Ireland 1/4 finals. Then allow the next 7 seeded teams from tier 1 and the top team from tier 2 (the top 2 would play off) to play a preliminary 1/4 final to join them. With a tier 2 competition knock out to be run at the same time. 2 up / 2 down each year.
I'd also add rugby style bonus points system with a bonus point for 3 goals and / or a narrow defect." Well done Kildare man, for at least trying to put some ideas out. Instead of the "football is dead" mullarkey of a lot. Good man.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2520 - 28/06/2021 11:48:56
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Replying To brianb: "Thanks for your comments. I think its fair to say there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for this - having said that there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for any proposed change while everyone seems to agree something must change.
I think the format has a lot of benefits; its flexible to do whatever you want with it. As I see it the key changes wanted are:
1 - More games in the summer for all counties
2 - A second tier championship but only if it has a way into the main Sam Maguire championship for the current year but with a final played on All Ireland final day
3 - An element of Provincial Competition but without the blowouts typically seen primarily in the provincial competitions
This would deliver on each of those points as well as keeping the majority of counties involved in football into July and August.
A brief calendar would look something like this with 2 tiers:
May - 3/4 games for all counties
June - 3/4 games for all counties
July - Week 1 - Provincial final for top two ranked teams from each Province + Tier 2 playoff for All Ireland spot
July - Week 2/3 - preliminary quarter final for 7 top ranked non provincial champions and Tier 2 play off winner; plus preliminary quarter final for Tier 2 cup & relegation playoffs for bottom Tier 1 teams (2 down)
July Week 4 - All Ireland Quarter finals (4 prelim winners & 4 provincial champions) & Tier 2 Quarter Finals
August - Semi Finals and Final in both All Ireland and Tier 2 Cup (winners of Tier 2 cup join play off winner in Tier 1 next year)
I'd summarize by saying that we'd basically be replacing the early rounds of provincial action and the qualifiers in favour of a seeding competition where everyone is involved." How would you deal with badly distributed quality between the provinces.
Like what if Dublin were top of the ladder, Meath were 11th, say. Could Meath still qualify for the All Ireland. What if Ulster had say the 3rd, 5th and 6th placed finishers. Would the 6th placed team get another chance?
Is it just a bit weird to have teams qualifying for the finals of a provincial competition and they haven't played anyone from their province?
Why is it important to play 6 or 8 games rather than 7 games in say an 8 team round robin?
What if there's only 1 team from a province in tier 1?
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 28/06/2021 14:34:31
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Replying To Whammo86: "How would you deal with badly distributed quality between the provinces.
Like what if Dublin were top of the ladder, Meath were 11th, say. Could Meath still qualify for the All Ireland. What if Ulster had say the 3rd, 5th and 6th placed finishers. Would the 6th placed team get another chance?
Is it just a bit weird to have teams qualifying for the finals of a provincial competition and they haven't played anyone from their province?
Why is it important to play 6 or 8 games rather than 7 games in say an 8 team round robin?
What if there's only 1 team from a province in tier 1?" I'd see the provincial route as a nod towards tradition ensuring that each province will be represented in the last 8. Winning the final gets you into the last 8. I'm trying to propose a way to keep the provincial finals involved as they are traditionally once of the best days of the football calendar. A lot of the Provincial matches are very one sided but the finals tend to be much more competitive (the last few years or the Leinster championship excepted).
As for your questions - I'd say the following:
What if Dublin were top of the ladder, Meath were 11th, say. Could Meath still qualify for the All Ireland? - Assuming Dublin beat Meath they'll be in the 1/4 final. Meath would be into the Preliminary 1/4 final (last 12) as 11th would just make it unless a lower ranked team won a province.
What if Ulster had say the 3rd, 5th and 6th placed finishers? - 3rd and 5th play an Ulster Final with the winners through to the 1/4 final and the losers into a preliminary 1/4 finals along with the 6th place finisher.
Is it just a bit weird to have teams qualifying for the finals of a provincial competition and they haven't played anyone from their province? - Perhaps so, but I would say better than the current one sided games we see.
Why is it important to play 6 or 8 games rather than 7 games in say an 8 team round robin? - Any time an 8 team round robin or something like that is proposed it comes at the expense of the provincial games and provincial champions. I feel it is important to have the provincial championship finals.
What if there's only 1 team from a province in tier 1? The top team from the second tier still gets into the Provincial final and has a chance of progressing from there.
As an example - say this years League placings gave the following ranking:
1. Kerry
2. Dublin
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Armagh
7. Galway
8. Roscommon
9. Mayo
10. Kildare
11. Meath
12. Clare
13. Down
14. Cork
15. Westmeath
16. Laois
17. Derry
18. Offaly
This would mean 4 Provincial Finals:
Ulster - Donegal V Tyrone - assume Donegal win
Munster - Kerry v Clare - assume a massive shock and Clare win
Leinster - Dublin v Kildare - assume Dublin win
Connaught - Galway v Roscommon - assume Galway in
This would mean Donegal, Clare, Dublin and Galway would be in the traditional 1/4 final slots.
The preliminary 1/4 finals would then be as follows with the winners joining the 4 provincial winners in the 1/4 finals.
Kerry (1) v Kildare (10)
Tyrone (4) v Mayo (9)
Monaghan (5) v Roscommon (8)
Armagh (6) v Tier 2 Playoff winner (Derry / Offaly)
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 28/06/2021 16:31:41
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Replying To brianb: "I'd see the provincial route as a nod towards tradition ensuring that each province will be represented in the last 8. Winning the final gets you into the last 8. I'm trying to propose a way to keep the provincial finals involved as they are traditionally once of the best days of the football calendar. A lot of the Provincial matches are very one sided but the finals tend to be much more competitive (the last few years or the Leinster championship excepted).
As for your questions - I'd say the following:
What if Dublin were top of the ladder, Meath were 11th, say. Could Meath still qualify for the All Ireland? - Assuming Dublin beat Meath they'll be in the 1/4 final. Meath would be into the Preliminary 1/4 final (last 12) as 11th would just make it unless a lower ranked team won a province.
What if Ulster had say the 3rd, 5th and 6th placed finishers? - 3rd and 5th play an Ulster Final with the winners through to the 1/4 final and the losers into a preliminary 1/4 finals along with the 6th place finisher.
Is it just a bit weird to have teams qualifying for the finals of a provincial competition and they haven't played anyone from their province? - Perhaps so, but I would say better than the current one sided games we see.
Why is it important to play 6 or 8 games rather than 7 games in say an 8 team round robin? - Any time an 8 team round robin or something like that is proposed it comes at the expense of the provincial games and provincial champions. I feel it is important to have the provincial championship finals.
What if there's only 1 team from a province in tier 1? The top team from the second tier still gets into the Provincial final and has a chance of progressing from there.
As an example - say this years League placings gave the following ranking:
1. Kerry
2. Dublin
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Armagh
7. Galway
8. Roscommon
9. Mayo
10. Kildare
11. Meath
12. Clare
13. Down
14. Cork
15. Westmeath
16. Laois
17. Derry
18. Offaly
This would mean 4 Provincial Finals:
Ulster - Donegal V Tyrone - assume Donegal win
Munster - Kerry v Clare - assume a massive shock and Clare win
Leinster - Dublin v Kildare - assume Dublin win
Connaught - Galway v Roscommon - assume Galway in
This would mean Donegal, Clare, Dublin and Galway would be in the traditional 1/4 final slots.
The preliminary 1/4 finals would then be as follows with the winners joining the 4 provincial winners in the 1/4 finals.
Kerry (1) v Kildare (10)
Tyrone (4) v Mayo (9)
Monaghan (5) v Roscommon (8)
Armagh (6) v Tier 2 Playoff winner (Derry / Offaly)" I've definitely got a few problems still with it.
A lot of the top section qualify for the knockout rounds, if there are only 1 or 2 teams in the top section what's the point of the league phase for them. They've qualified for their provincial finals.
A team in 3rd place could have to play a preliminary quarterfinal despite being the 3rd best team with lesser teams getting a way through to the quarterfinals despite it being clear that they are weaker.
In the current system the provincials are certainly unequal but I think it's way worse to have it somewhat proven on the field that a province is weaker and then still let their champion still directly into an All Ireland quarterfinal.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 28/06/2021 17:20:12
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Why not just have mixed prov championship group stages - a halfway house between tiered all Ireland
Tailteann Cup
4 groups of 4
Top 4 into semis and then final
SAM MAGUIRE CUP
1. Ulster A
Tyrone, Derry, Monaghan, Armagh,
2. Leinster A
Kildare, Meath, Westmeath, Laois
3. Connacht/Munster A
Roscommon, Galway, Cork, Clare
4. All Ireland Group (top 2 league teams plus previous year's finalists)
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Mayo
Group 4 teams play for 3 of them to get a bye to Q finals - top 2 get home draws in Q finals
Bottom teams in groups 1-3 go to Tailteann cup
A. 4th in group 4 v 3rd in group 3
B. 1st in group 3 v 3rd in group 2
C. 1st in group 2 v 3rd in group 1
D. 1st in group 1 v 2nd in group 2
E. 2nd group 1 v 2nd group 3
F. 3rd group v tailteann cup winner
G. 2nd group v tailteann cup r up
H. 1st group 4 get bye
A v E
B v F
C v G
D v H
All completely contrived to get as many competitive matches as possible and back door entry for Tailteann cup winner
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 28/06/2021 21:15:24
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Why not just have mixed prov championship group stages - a halfway house between tiered all Ireland
Tailteann Cup
4 groups of 4
Top 4 into semis and then final
SAM MAGUIRE CUP
1. Ulster A
Tyrone, Derry, Monaghan, Armagh,
2. Leinster A
Kildare, Meath, Westmeath, Laois
3. Connacht/Munster A
Roscommon, Galway, Cork, Clare
4. All Ireland Group (top 2 league teams plus previous year's finalists)
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Mayo
Group 4 teams play for 3 of them to get a bye to Q finals - top 2 get home draws in Q finals
Bottom teams in groups 1-3 go to Tailteann cup
A. 4th in group 4 v 3rd in group 3
B. 1st in group 3 v 3rd in group 2
C. 1st in group 2 v 3rd in group 1
D. 1st in group 1 v 2nd in group 2
E. 2nd group 1 v 2nd group 3
F. 3rd group v tailteann cup winner
G. 2nd group v tailteann cup r up
H. 1st group 4 get bye
A v E
B v F
C v G
D v H
All completely contrived to get as many competitive matches as possible and back door entry for Tailteann cup winner" That just looks awful.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 28/06/2021 23:18:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "I've definitely got a few problems still with it.
A lot of the top section qualify for the knockout rounds, if there are only 1 or 2 teams in the top section what's the point of the league phase for them. They've qualified for their provincial finals.
A team in 3rd place could have to play a preliminary quarterfinal despite being the 3rd best team with lesser teams getting a way through to the quarterfinals despite it being clear that they are weaker.
In the current system the provincials are certainly unequal but I think it's way worse to have it somewhat proven on the field that a province is weaker and then still let their champion still directly into an All Ireland quarterfinal." I see what you're saying there and agree it isn't perfect. Indeed if there were only 2 teams from a province in the Top 16 they'd be in a provincial final. They would both still have an incentive to get their seeding as high as possible though. If you don't finish high enough and don't win the provincial final you're out. A lower seeding would also get you a tougher game.
A lot of the top section qualify for the knockout rounds. Again I think this is a good thing; like the soccer European Championships; there are a lot of games played to get from 24 to 16 teams. For the 8 teams going home who previously wouldn't have qualified it can be great for fans and players alike.
If the top 3 teams are from one province; you're right that only one would win the province be straight to the 1/4 final with the other 2 in the last 12. I'd see this as better than the current system where at least one of the teams will be knocked out and have to go the qualifier route handing out ritual hammerings to other teams along the way to get to the last 12 where they'll start to get tougher games again.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 29/06/2021 09:20:43
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I don't think the GAA needs to reinvent the wheel too much.
I think everyone wants to keep the provincials, the national leagues are great the way they are.
The All Ireland needs to be a bit more balanced because of the lopsided nature of the provincials.
Play the National league and Provincials in parallel from February to May.
Play a seeded All Ireland championship which is a bit more streamlined than the qualifiers.
16 team round 1: 8 Provincial finalists plus best 8 others from the league get a bye. Can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.
Round 2: 16 teams: 4 provincial champions plus 4 best from the league get byes. 8 round 1 winners and 8 remaining teams play in this round.
Round 3: Last 16 organised on an All Ireland basis.
Provincials remain part of the All Ireland but to a lesser degree than now.
League becomes more important.
No need for a tier 2 competition because the leagues get played all the way up to May and are given more prominence.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 29/06/2021 09:41:19
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think the GAA needs to reinvent the wheel too much.
I think everyone wants to keep the provincials, the national leagues are great the way they are.
The All Ireland needs to be a bit more balanced because of the lopsided nature of the provincials.
Play the National league and Provincials in parallel from February to May.
Play a seeded All Ireland championship which is a bit more streamlined than the qualifiers.
16 team round 1: 8 Provincial finalists plus best 8 others from the league get a bye. Can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.
Round 2: 16 teams: 4 provincial champions plus 4 best from the league get byes. 8 round 1 winners and 8 remaining teams play in this round.
Round 3: Last 16 organised on an All Ireland basis.
Provincials remain part of the All Ireland but to a lesser degree than now.
League becomes more important.
No need for a tier 2 competition because the leagues get played all the way up to May and are given more prominence." The key is to keep the league in the calendar and maintain the provinces as a key path to progression.
Phase 1:
National league - run this off on consecutive weekends and drop the minor competitions like McGrath Cup etc
Phase 2:
Run off the provincials as usual with the 2 finalists in each province seeded for Phase 3
Phase 3:
8 groups of 4 (New York/London/Kilkenny could play off for the final position).
Lowest ranked team has home advantage in all 3 games, other teams get 1 home, 2 away.
Pot 1: Top 2 in each province, regardless of league position
Pot 2: Top ranked league teams that did not make the provincial decider
Pot 3: Next level of teams that didn't make the decider
Pot 4: Lowest ranked teams that didn't make the decider
From a quick look at last years league and provincial:
Pot 1: Tipperary, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Dublin, Donegal, Cavan
Pot 2: Kerry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Armagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Laois
Pot 3 Clare, Fermanagh, Down, Derry, Longford, Offaly, Leitrim, Louth
Pot 4 Limerick, Wicklow, Antrim, Wexford, Carlow, Sligo, Waterford, winner of London/New York/Kilkenny playoff
You could be a division 4 team and end up in a tough group with Dublin and Kerry, or you could end up with Tipperary, Laois, Fermanagh, Sligo. On their day, I reckon any of those 4 could give any of the others a run for it.
This would guarantee everyone 4 summer games, a visit from one or two of the big guns and, with a lucky draw, a possible trip to the Quarter Finals.
In the case of NY, it would mean 6 matches in the big apple should they qualify. Imagine the fun over there if they were welcoming Kilkenny and London for qualifier matches where they could win, then Kerry, Dublin and Derry in the championship
I think it is genius!!
kingdom_come (Kerry) - Posts: 76 - 29/06/2021 10:40:55
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think the GAA needs to reinvent the wheel too much.
I think everyone wants to keep the provincials, the national leagues are great the way they are.
The All Ireland needs to be a bit more balanced because of the lopsided nature of the provincials.
Play the National league and Provincials in parallel from February to May.
Play a seeded All Ireland championship which is a bit more streamlined than the qualifiers.
16 team round 1: 8 Provincial finalists plus best 8 others from the league get a bye. Can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.
Round 2: 16 teams: 4 provincial champions plus 4 best from the league get byes. 8 round 1 winners and 8 remaining teams play in this round.
Round 3: Last 16 organised on an All Ireland basis.
Provincials remain part of the All Ireland but to a lesser degree than now.
League becomes more important.
No need for a tier 2 competition because the leagues get played all the way up to May and are given more prominence." But that still means majority of games are played in the worst weather/earliest part of the season and when the other major sports in ireland are being played which doesnt make sense from PR/coverage/media perspective.
why not play league through the summer and have provincial/ireland cups in between the league games like soccer does with fa cup/champions league interspaced between premiershup games or like rugby has european cup in weekends in between pro12.
if you play league through the summer you could have the case where counties are knocked out of their province/all ireland by a county and then have to face them again in the league the following week?
Would make interesting viewing!
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 29/06/2021 10:46:21
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Replying To kingdom_come: "The key is to keep the league in the calendar and maintain the provinces as a key path to progression.
Phase 1:
National league - run this off on consecutive weekends and drop the minor competitions like McGrath Cup etc
Phase 2:
Run off the provincials as usual with the 2 finalists in each province seeded for Phase 3
Phase 3:
8 groups of 4 (New York/London/Kilkenny could play off for the final position).
Lowest ranked team has home advantage in all 3 games, other teams get 1 home, 2 away.
Pot 1: Top 2 in each province, regardless of league position
Pot 2: Top ranked league teams that did not make the provincial decider
Pot 3: Next level of teams that didn't make the decider
Pot 4: Lowest ranked teams that didn't make the decider
From a quick look at last years league and provincial:
Pot 1: Tipperary, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Dublin, Donegal, Cavan
Pot 2: Kerry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Armagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Laois
Pot 3 Clare, Fermanagh, Down, Derry, Longford, Offaly, Leitrim, Louth
Pot 4 Limerick, Wicklow, Antrim, Wexford, Carlow, Sligo, Waterford, winner of London/New York/Kilkenny playoff
You could be a division 4 team and end up in a tough group with Dublin and Kerry, or you could end up with Tipperary, Laois, Fermanagh, Sligo. On their day, I reckon any of those 4 could give any of the others a run for it.
This would guarantee everyone 4 summer games, a visit from one or two of the big guns and, with a lucky draw, a possible trip to the Quarter Finals.
In the case of NY, it would mean 6 matches in the big apple should they qualify. Imagine the fun over there if they were welcoming Kilkenny and London for qualifier matches where they could win, then Kerry, Dublin and Derry in the championship
I think it is genius!!" I agree about removing all the provincial pre season cups. Teams just need friendlies and already play loads of them ahead of league anyway
I dont think running the provincial championships off is right especially if played entirely before league etc.
A league based competition with games over 4/5 months should be main focus of the inter county season with the 4 provinces having cup competitions and then an all ireland cup as well would be great
New York wouldnt be able to play all them games. there's good reason they dont play in the league or qualifiers when knocked out of connacht championship.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 29/06/2021 11:23:17
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Replying To KillingFields: "I agree about removing all the provincial pre season cups. Teams just need friendlies and already play loads of them ahead of league anyway
I dont think running the provincial championships off is right especially if played entirely before league etc.
A league based competition with games over 4/5 months should be main focus of the inter county season with the 4 provinces having cup competitions and then an all ireland cup as well would be great
New York wouldnt be able to play all them games. there's good reason they dont play in the league or qualifiers when knocked out of connacht championship." In an ideal world of professional players, then 4 months of a competitive league would be the best system, but Its just not going to happen until the players are professional. Clubs are already without their county players for months on end and having a longer league will only exacerbate the issue.
One of the main stumbling blocks to an open 32 team draw is that the provincial councils won't give up their position in the hierarchy. Any plan to change the GAA must take that into account. There is no way they will allow the provincial structure be removed.
The league is already played in the early season, that stays the same
The provincials are played in early summer - stays the same
The only change is to have an additional group system, similar to the super 8 that have been agreed, but where everyone and not just the top 8 take part.
New York don't play in the league because they wouldn't be able to fulfill fixtures over a 4 month time frame - this is true. They also wouldn't be able to make away games because of some paperwork issues that players may have. This is why there is no league participation, not a lack of money or interest. But they do play championship each year and get the squad together regularly for training in the build up to that. It'd make more sense for them to have at least 2 or 3 games each year to reward their effort. In fairness to Leitrim and Sligo , they have a big contingent living in NY, but I'm sure NY would like a visit from the AI champions more often.
Nothing stopping the GAA from having the foresight to expand the game by taking the hit on subsidised travel for a few county boards, and with the money that would come rolling back in from the ex-pat community - who already donate huge amounts of cash to the GAA - I don't think it would break any bank in the long term.
kingdom_come (Kerry) - Posts: 76 - 29/06/2021 11:45:51
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this is the amateur g a a we are talking about . the provincial championship is going nowhere munster ulster connaught and ulster , thats how it is and how it will be .
mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1806 - 29/06/2021 11:54:15
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Replying To KillingFields: "I agree about removing all the provincial pre season cups. Teams just need friendlies and already play loads of them ahead of league anyway
I dont think running the provincial championships off is right especially if played entirely before league etc.
A league based competition with games over 4/5 months should be main focus of the inter county season with the 4 provinces having cup competitions and then an all ireland cup as well would be great
New York wouldnt be able to play all them games. there's good reason they dont play in the league or qualifiers when knocked out of connacht championship." I think theres a lot of merit in kingdom_come's suggestion. With that format I'd agree with KillingFields' idea to play the provincial matches along side the league games. It would end up with both the league finals and provincial finals being played in June which is when you want to start seeing the biggest games being played.
If New York wouldn't be able to host the games - then they shouldn't enter. I'd imagine they would enter and be able to host the games. It could even lead to a bigger interest in GAA in the US. It would certainly be a boon to the ex-pat population there.
The two drawbacks I see is that its missing is a 2nd tier competition. The Division 4 team is likely to get some big defeats that would inevitably lead to a clamor for a second tier competition. That format might negate that need due to the luck of the draw.
It also diminishes the impact of winning a provincial final. I'd feel that's a small thing - a provincial title is still a very valuable thing to win.
It would also allow for the introduction of a Swiss style system a few years down the road after we see how effective and flexible that is for allowing extra games for all teams.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 292 - 29/06/2021 11:59:40
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Replying To KillingFields: "But that still means majority of games are played in the worst weather/earliest part of the season and when the other major sports in ireland are being played which doesnt make sense from PR/coverage/media perspective.
why not play league through the summer and have provincial/ireland cups in between the league games like soccer does with fa cup/champions league interspaced between premiershup games or like rugby has european cup in weekends in between pro12.
if you play league through the summer you could have the case where counties are knocked out of their province/all ireland by a county and then have to face them again in the league the following week?
Would make interesting viewing!" I think soccer's fa cup and rugby's pro 14 competition illustrate why that's a bad idea.
The secondary competitions become a nuisance when they're inter mixed with the main competition.
Having the league as the main competition is bad as you'd only have 8 teams in the running each year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4237 - 29/06/2021 18:26:44
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