National Forum

Can Anyone Name A More Forgone Conclusion Of A Competition Than The Leinster Football Championship?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Dubh_linn:  "There is an issue here with the argument that this is all down to money and funding and that is that Dublin hurlers have not won these multiple titles that the footballers have. We won a league and Leinster 8 and 10 years ago under Anthony Daly with a very talented bunch of players but that is the extent at county senior level and I have seen nothing to demonstrate that this will change anytime soon.If you wish to suggest otherwise then that is fine but it is purely speculation and if anything the performances have regressed. Anthony Cunningham's tenure was a disaster for Dublin hurling and it is still struggling to recover.
Finance of course is essential but it is far from the be all and end all and there is no shortage of finance in all the main contenders for All Ireland's.
Coaching and shrewd management are vital and Pat Gilroy, Jim Gavin and Dessie Farrell are all successful and committed individuals in their own right who have spent their lives involved in Dublin Football.
They have also been lucky to have some very knowledgeable people work with them to enable the players to reach their potential while following their own paths professionally.
Lastly,best of luck to Dublin hurlers against Kilkenny today. Hopefully there will be signs of promise for these no less committed players."
I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 08/05/2021 15:09:21    2340547

Link

Replying To Greenfield:  "
Replying To Viking66:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "Even though the GAA didn't set out to create a "Super Team" in Dublin, they ought to have known that their unfair actions would have done just that. You see, there was a time in Dublin not so long ago when Gaelic games were looked at by many in Dublin as something only "country people" played, "bog ball" it was known as. Clearly they still had lads playing the game, many of them introduced to it by Guards from the country and so on.

There came a point when the GAA became terrified at the reality of other sports getting a foothold in the capital and in the most basic of terms this is what lead to massive investments in Dublin GAA, helped along by Bertie Ahern, who "happened" to be a man steeped in Dublin GAA.

There is an inherent fear of "foreign games" within the GAA dating back to its formation, and it still exists today. All you need to do is read some of the posts here to get a sample of that, it's like going back in time and it's this fear which has lead us to the farcical situation we are in today, especially when it comes to the Leinster Championship, which isn't dying, it's already dead.

Had the "the free market choices" of sport prevailed and not been interfered with by the GAA and the government at the time, then I have no doubt that we would have a more competitive Leinster and All-Ireland championship now and I have no doubt that Dublin would not have won six in a row either. Nobody questions that Dublin wouldn't still have produced good players and that they wouldn't win the odd All-Ireland, of course they would, but they definitely wouldn't have the dominance they have today.

Throw in the use of Croke Park as your home ground, to know every blade of grass like the back of your hand and know your range, sure how could you not win. I just wonder is there anything else the GAA could do to help them.

If it hadn't been for the likes of Kerry, Mayo and Donegal over the last few years, the farce would have been exposed even more.

If you look at a player like Andy Moran of Mayo as an example, who probably played on the best team Mayo ever produced and indeed one of the best teams that ever played, great on the eye, to think that in all likelihood he and that team were denied because of the unfairness of the GAA, is scandalous and simply wrong. That was a classic generational team, not a team helped by millions to create robots, the money even turned Jim Gavin into a robot in the end, if he had stayed in the game much longer he would have been electrocuted with all the wires hanging out of his ears. Will David Clifford of Kerry suffer the same fate as Moran or will time save him, who knows. How many more generational teams will be denied by the money men ? It's wrong.

So no matter what way you look at it, the paper trail leads you back to the unfair investment, but don't blame Dublin, it's the GAA who have created the monster but unless things are radically changed, in time the monster will end up costing the GAA big time."
Agreed. I don't think many actually blame Dublin, it was a massive mess up by the gaa. Dublin benefited but it was not their doing."
Well Dublin attract criticism as well because they go on the defensive and try to convince themselves and others that their success has nothing to do with unfair investment and other perks. Nobody wants their playing career tainted by constant reminders of unfairness, so it's understandable. I heard Pat Gilroy say that "nobody was giving out when Kerry and Kilkenny were winning everything", he's right, people weren't giving out because people understood their successes had nothing to do with unfair investment by the GAA and Government. "]How much money from either the government or GAA goes into their squad? None I'd be guessing!"]How do you mean "into the squad" ? Sure the squad is the one of the end products of the investment."]You are still missing the point. If this current team is the product of the government's/GAA's investment in underage Dublin football/social projects then why arent they winning All Ireland Minor titles every year?"]Quite simply cause that is not the age they want them to achieve prime fitness etc. It's all geared towards when they hit 20 and beyond. Like any professional outfit burn out is a huge thing. Dubs couldn't give a toss about minor or u20. And if that's the hope you holding onto for them to fade away then you can forget about it. Reading while back about the Kildare lad who played and won against them at minor, same fella he came up against in a match few years later took him apart. It's all about been primed for senior. Ask any dub this and those who are been honest will say the same, Meath have over the past 5 years beat dubs at minor more often than lost. Meet at senior it's entirely different."]There is a limited connection between underage and senior success in sport, fact. Take a look at Con O'Callaghan's incredible development as a good example of the jump needed. Minors are only young lads and shouldn't be expected to turn into men before their time.

I posed the question earlier regarding Dublin's "best" player and probably the best player in the country, certainly in his position, and that player is Brian Fenton, the current footballer of the year, the second time he has won the award in two years. Great player, no one can question that.

Well believe it or not Brian Fenton was told he wasn't good enough for the Dublin Minor team about 10 years ago.

Ironically the manager was none other than Dessie Farrell.

I hope this helps to answer the good question Viking66 directed at me yesterday."]Good answer. So you are saying Dublin have a really good longterm approach to developing senior footballers? What is stopping other counties doing this? If other counties prioritise minor success as the traditional route to developing good senior players and this is why they are coming up short then why dont they change their approach?"]Funding. Plain and simple.
I'm not going to google this so these figures are going to be off slightly, but last year it was reported dubs got 170+ per registered player. Meath got 70+. Or something crazy like that. Look someone I'm sure will come up with the exact amount, but to be able to see raw talent that has potential and bide ur time can only be done with proper resources and funding."]In what way does funding make the difference? Better food? Better longterm strength and conditioning or skills training? I still dont see how the government funding infrastructure projects at clubs in Dublin to help keep kids out of gangs or off the streets leads to a better intercounty senior team. Maybe the fact that alot of the great team they have currently come from poorer areas has given then a hunger to succeed when up against players from predominantly comfortable backgrounds in other counties. It was often a criticism of many clubs around the country even as late as the 90s that the number of acres your family farmed or the size of the family business directly influenced your chances of being picked to play especially at underage. Most of the worlds great soccer players came from poorer backgrounds also."]GAA apologists are getting really tiresome.

So funding makes no difference in the development of players? Someone should tell professional sports organisations all across the world.

If the extra millions of funding pumped into Dublin has made no difference over the last 15 years then it has been a huge waste of money and out of character for an organisation frequently referred to as "grab all" and should be stopped straight away before any more is wasted.

On the other hand if it has been successfully spent and has caused the collapse of the all Ireland as a serious competition (which IMO it has) then it should be stopped straight away.

Either way what is happening is ridiculous and people who can't see the problem really aren't helping."]dubs always say money has nothing to do with their success even though its very easy for everyone 1 to see that's since the money started being pumped in since 2002 their men's senior team have won a 6 in a row when the holy grail of a 5 never looked like being done before and they've won 8 in 10 years.

Their U20/21 have been in lots of finals winning 4/5 since 2010 and they had nothing to show for the previous how many years.

dublins hurlers were competing at kerrys level and were quite poor but now they're play with the big boys and competing well having won a div 1 title and a leinster and played in an allireland semifinal.

The dublin ladies never raised a gallop in women's football till about 10 years ago and now they have 4 in a row and heading towards 5 this year but we're supposed to believe the money has nothing to do with it.

It's funny if you speak of taking the money away and some dub posters throw a wobbler.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 08/05/2021 16:11:52    2340557

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 08/05/2021 16:47:55    2340563

Link

Tis gas to see the usual suspects complaint about money issues now that they're winning shag all.
Never saw them bawling about finances when they were winning. Never saw them complaining about winning when they had all the cards stacked in their favour ,and still have by the way ,and don't remember them drawing any attention to the destruction of the minor football competition due to their dominance.
Tis a funny one alright when you read some of the double standards these boys can apply and think everyone else is blind.
Ah, sure, when were they any different I suppose. They don't like it up em.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 08/05/2021 18:53:40    2340585

Link

I want to wish both Meath and Kildare the best of luck in Leinster this year. Also good luck to Wexford, Carlow, Louth and Offaly and others. Anyway respect Dublin's great achievements and don't be intimidated though. Slán

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2517 - 08/05/2021 20:10:43    2340596

Link

Replying To galwayford:  "I want to wish both Meath and Kildare the best of luck in Leinster this year. Also good luck to Wexford, Carlow, Louth and Offaly and others. Anyway respect Dublin's great achievements and don't be intimidated though. Slán"
Amen to that galwayford.
Let the games begin.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 08/05/2021 22:05:55    2340615

Link

Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "
Replying To Greenfield:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Viking66:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=royaldunne:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "Even though the GAA didn't set out to create a "Super Team" in Dublin, they ought to have known that their unfair actions would have done just that. You see, there was a time in Dublin not so long ago when Gaelic games were looked at by many in Dublin as something only "country people" played, "bog ball" it was known as. Clearly they still had lads playing the game, many of them introduced to it by Guards from the country and so on.

There came a point when the GAA became terrified at the reality of other sports getting a foothold in the capital and in the most basic of terms this is what lead to massive investments in Dublin GAA, helped along by Bertie Ahern, who "happened" to be a man steeped in Dublin GAA.

There is an inherent fear of "foreign games" within the GAA dating back to its formation, and it still exists today. All you need to do is read some of the posts here to get a sample of that, it's like going back in time and it's this fear which has lead us to the farcical situation we are in today, especially when it comes to the Leinster Championship, which isn't dying, it's already dead.

Had the "the free market choices" of sport prevailed and not been interfered with by the GAA and the government at the time, then I have no doubt that we would have a more competitive Leinster and All-Ireland championship now and I have no doubt that Dublin would not have won six in a row either. Nobody questions that Dublin wouldn't still have produced good players and that they wouldn't win the odd All-Ireland, of course they would, but they definitely wouldn't have the dominance they have today.

Throw in the use of Croke Park as your home ground, to know every blade of grass like the back of your hand and know your range, sure how could you not win. I just wonder is there anything else the GAA could do to help them.

If it hadn't been for the likes of Kerry, Mayo and Donegal over the last few years, the farce would have been exposed even more.

If you look at a player like Andy Moran of Mayo as an example, who probably played on the best team Mayo ever produced and indeed one of the best teams that ever played, great on the eye, to think that in all likelihood he and that team were denied because of the unfairness of the GAA, is scandalous and simply wrong. That was a classic generational team, not a team helped by millions to create robots, the money even turned Jim Gavin into a robot in the end, if he had stayed in the game much longer he would have been electrocuted with all the wires hanging out of his ears. Will David Clifford of Kerry suffer the same fate as Moran or will time save him, who knows. How many more generational teams will be denied by the money men ? It's wrong.

So no matter what way you look at it, the paper trail leads you back to the unfair investment, but don't blame Dublin, it's the GAA who have created the monster but unless things are radically changed, in time the monster will end up costing the GAA big time."
Agreed. I don't think many actually blame Dublin, it was a massive mess up by the gaa. Dublin benefited but it was not their doing."
Well Dublin attract criticism as well because they go on the defensive and try to convince themselves and others that their success has nothing to do with unfair investment and other perks. Nobody wants their playing career tainted by constant reminders of unfairness, so it's understandable. I heard Pat Gilroy say that "nobody was giving out when Kerry and Kilkenny were winning everything", he's right, people weren't giving out because people understood their successes had nothing to do with unfair investment by the GAA and Government. "]How much money from either the government or GAA goes into their squad? None I'd be guessing!"]How do you mean "into the squad" ? Sure the squad is the one of the end products of the investment."]You are still missing the point. If this current team is the product of the government's/GAA's investment in underage Dublin football/social projects then why arent they winning All Ireland Minor titles every year?"]Quite simply cause that is not the age they want them to achieve prime fitness etc. It's all geared towards when they hit 20 and beyond. Like any professional outfit burn out is a huge thing. Dubs couldn't give a toss about minor or u20. And if that's the hope you holding onto for them to fade away then you can forget about it. Reading while back about the Kildare lad who played and won against them at minor, same fella he came up against in a match few years later took him apart. It's all about been primed for senior. Ask any dub this and those who are been honest will say the same, Meath have over the past 5 years beat dubs at minor more often than lost. Meet at senior it's entirely different."]There is a limited connection between underage and senior success in sport, fact. Take a look at Con O'Callaghan's incredible development as a good example of the jump needed. Minors are only young lads and shouldn't be expected to turn into men before their time.

I posed the question earlier regarding Dublin's "best" player and probably the best player in the country, certainly in his position, and that player is Brian Fenton, the current footballer of the year, the second time he has won the award in two years. Great player, no one can question that.

Well believe it or not Brian Fenton was told he wasn't good enough for the Dublin Minor team about 10 years ago.

Ironically the manager was none other than Dessie Farrell.

I hope this helps to answer the good question Viking66 directed at me yesterday."]Good answer. So you are saying Dublin have a really good longterm approach to developing senior footballers? What is stopping other counties doing this? If other counties prioritise minor success as the traditional route to developing good senior players and this is why they are coming up short then why dont they change their approach?"]Funding. Plain and simple.
I'm not going to google this so these figures are going to be off slightly, but last year it was reported dubs got 170+ per registered player. Meath got 70+. Or something crazy like that. Look someone I'm sure will come up with the exact amount, but to be able to see raw talent that has potential and bide ur time can only be done with proper resources and funding."]In what way does funding make the difference? Better food? Better longterm strength and conditioning or skills training? I still dont see how the government funding infrastructure projects at clubs in Dublin to help keep kids out of gangs or off the streets leads to a better intercounty senior team. Maybe the fact that alot of the great team they have currently come from poorer areas has given then a hunger to succeed when up against players from predominantly comfortable backgrounds in other counties. It was often a criticism of many clubs around the country even as late as the 90s that the number of acres your family farmed or the size of the family business directly influenced your chances of being picked to play especially at underage. Most of the worlds great soccer players came from poorer backgrounds also."]GAA apologists are getting really tiresome.

So funding makes no difference in the development of players? Someone should tell professional sports organisations all across the world.

If the extra millions of funding pumped into Dublin has made no difference over the last 15 years then it has been a huge waste of money and out of character for an organisation frequently referred to as "grab all" and should be stopped straight away before any more is wasted.

On the other hand if it has been successfully spent and has caused the collapse of the all Ireland as a serious competition (which IMO it has) then it should be stopped straight away.

Either way what is happening is ridiculous and people who can't see the problem really aren't helping."]dubs always say money has nothing to do with their success even though its very easy for everyone 1 to see that's since the money started being pumped in since 2002 their men's senior team have won a 6 in a row when the holy grail of a 5 never looked like being done before and they've won 8 in 10 years.

Their U20/21 have been in lots of finals winning 4/5 since 2010 and they had nothing to show for the previous how many years.

dublins hurlers were competing at kerrys level and were quite poor but now they're play with the big boys and competing well having won a div 1 title and a leinster and played in an allireland semifinal.

The dublin ladies never raised a gallop in women's football till about 10 years ago and now they have 4 in a row and heading towards 5 this year but we're supposed to believe the money has nothing to do with it.

It's funny if you speak of taking the money away and some dub posters throw a wobbler."]Its funny it took you so long to comment -:)

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 08/05/2021 23:22:43    2340626

Link

Replying To galwayford:  "Regarding Galway beating Dubs. They drew with them in the league down in Salthill a few years ago. They also played them in the All Ireland semi in Aug 2018. They were even in the first half and Galway were awarded a peno. Unfortunately Cluxton saved it, Dubs went on to win out in the second half easily enough. Missed peno cost Galway dear."
Regarding Galway beating Dublin, Galway haven't beaten Dublin in the championship in 87 years. Its the worse record any of the top successful traditional teams in the country have against Dublin. Dublin going back generations are seen as Galway's bogey team. Interesting fact, since 1950 every single county that has won an All Ireland has beaten Dublin in the championship at some point in the last 70 years. The exception, the odd one out is Galway. Tyrone beat Dublin in 2005 and 2008, Armagh beat Dublin in 2002, Derry beat Dublin in 1993, Down beat Dublin in 1994, Donegal beat Dublin in 1992 and 2014. Cork beat Dublin in 1989 and 2010. Meath and kerry both defeated Dublin in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. Offaly beat Dublin in 1980 and 1982. The only county to win an All Ireland in the last 70 years since 1950 and not beat Dublin in the championship in that 70 year period is Galway. Even Galways main rival, Mayo have beaten Dublin in the championship recently. Mayo beat Dublin in 2006 and 2012 and also drew with Dublin in 1985, 2015 and 2016. Galway have beaten Dublin twice in the championship and those wins were nearly 90 years ago. The two and only Galway wins v Dublin in the championship ever were in 1933, 1934.

Kingkeegan (UK) - Posts: 55 - 09/05/2021 04:13:27    2340643

Link

Replying To Kingkeegan:  "Regarding Galway beating Dublin, Galway haven't beaten Dublin in the championship in 87 years. Its the worse record any of the top successful traditional teams in the country have against Dublin. Dublin going back generations are seen as Galway's bogey team. Interesting fact, since 1950 every single county that has won an All Ireland has beaten Dublin in the championship at some point in the last 70 years. The exception, the odd one out is Galway. Tyrone beat Dublin in 2005 and 2008, Armagh beat Dublin in 2002, Derry beat Dublin in 1993, Down beat Dublin in 1994, Donegal beat Dublin in 1992 and 2014. Cork beat Dublin in 1989 and 2010. Meath and kerry both defeated Dublin in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. Offaly beat Dublin in 1980 and 1982. The only county to win an All Ireland in the last 70 years since 1950 and not beat Dublin in the championship in that 70 year period is Galway. Even Galways main rival, Mayo have beaten Dublin in the championship recently. Mayo beat Dublin in 2006 and 2012 and also drew with Dublin in 1985, 2015 and 2016. Galway have beaten Dublin twice in the championship and those wins were nearly 90 years ago. The two and only Galway wins v Dublin in the championship ever were in 1933, 1934."
So what ? When was the last time Kerry beat Down in the championship ?
Your point being ?

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 09/05/2021 09:30:30    2340649

Link

Replying To Kingkeegan:  "Regarding Galway beating Dublin, Galway haven't beaten Dublin in the championship in 87 years. Its the worse record any of the top successful traditional teams in the country have against Dublin. Dublin going back generations are seen as Galway's bogey team. Interesting fact, since 1950 every single county that has won an All Ireland has beaten Dublin in the championship at some point in the last 70 years. The exception, the odd one out is Galway. Tyrone beat Dublin in 2005 and 2008, Armagh beat Dublin in 2002, Derry beat Dublin in 1993, Down beat Dublin in 1994, Donegal beat Dublin in 1992 and 2014. Cork beat Dublin in 1989 and 2010. Meath and kerry both defeated Dublin in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. Offaly beat Dublin in 1980 and 1982. The only county to win an All Ireland in the last 70 years since 1950 and not beat Dublin in the championship in that 70 year period is Galway. Even Galways main rival, Mayo have beaten Dublin in the championship recently. Mayo beat Dublin in 2006 and 2012 and also drew with Dublin in 1985, 2015 and 2016. Galway have beaten Dublin twice in the championship and those wins were nearly 90 years ago. The two and only Galway wins v Dublin in the championship ever were in 1933, 1934."
"Galway haven't beaten Dublin in the championship in 87 years. Its the worse record any of the top successful traditional teams in the country have against Dublin."

As they say, 'context is everything'.

Galway have played Dublin 10 times in the Championship, winning twice. A 20% success rate.

Mayo have played Dublin 17 times in the Championship, winning twice (with 4 draws). A 12% success rate.

Cork have played Dublin 16 times in the Championship winning twice (with 2 drawn games). A 13% success rate.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2448 - 09/05/2021 09:58:26    2340651

Link

Replying To Dubh_linn:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 09/05/2021 10:06:14    2340654

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 09/05/2021 13:07:16    2340694

Link

Replying To Dubh_linn:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 09/05/2021 15:00:48    2340716

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is."]So you're kind of admitting that a huge part of Dublins success is their commitment to and love of gaelic football, that if they didn't care so much they wouldn't have achieved a fraction of what they did the last 10 years.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1699 - 09/05/2021 15:47:22    2340732

Link

Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is."]Sorry, I'm not sure where you are going with this or where Kerry came into the equation. Any comment in relation to obsession is purely speculation and not really relevant.
Anyway, I've tried to get my point across and will leave it there. All the best.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 09/05/2021 16:20:34    2340746

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is."]So you're kind of admitting that a huge part of Dublins success is their commitment to and love of gaelic football, that if they didn't care so much they wouldn't have achieved a fraction of what they did the last 10 years."]Who are you asking ?

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 09/05/2021 16:23:09    2340747

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is."]So you're kind of admitting that a huge part of Dublins success is their commitment to and love of gaelic football, that if they didn't care so much they wouldn't have achieved a fraction of what they did the last 10 years."]Well I think you are right teams need a lot of things to be successful, the most important is motivation, look at the stranded whales beached in the English premiership no money will motivate you to win if your pocket is stuffed full of money already. That is something Dublin doesn't have, but motivation is a real key to their success, along with the other things. The ratio of Hurling to Football across both genders is roughly 3:1 in Dublin so Dublin doesn't have a rich pool of talent a lot of them play Football not hurling. Anf that is the core problem for Dublin. When people look around Leinster and see the the de-motivation at county level football it is happening in Dublin at club level, the more Dublinfootball achieves at county the first loser is Hurling always.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4895 - 09/05/2021 17:03:34    2340765

Link

Replying To arock:  "
Replying To Galway9801:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "[quote=Dubh_linn:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "I'm not a hurling man but I'd say there are far more top hurling teams in the country than there are top football teams. When I say top, I mean capable of beating each other on any given day, and capable of winning an All-Ireland, so I wouldn't expect Dublin to reach the summit of Hurling as fast or if ever indeed, considering tactics would be much more limited in hurling. The money hasn't done Limerick any harm though. Correct me if I'm wrong."
Money does not do any harm and as I mentioned is vital for success but no, there are not more serious contenders.
In the last 20 years 6 teams have won the All Ireland hurling title while 7 have won the Football so even with Dublins dominance in the past decade there are still more teams that have won in football. Galway, won their first All Ireland in 30 years along with Limericks emergence over the last few years having not won one for 45 years.Waterford another county that are waiting for a first in over 60 years while it's been 16 years since Cork lifted the Liam McCarthy with Clare winning one so no there are relatively few that are habitual contenders.
In fact , if you look at the hurling and football finals over the last decade the hurling has been far more clean cut.
Now, if the logical progression is that money is the biggest reason for Dublins success in footballing terms then you would expect the hurlers to have had more success.
My point is that the easy option is to point to finances as the main reason for Dublin doing so well while ignoring the lack of success in the other code."
At least you are honest enough to say to succeed money is vital, which is just a nicer way of saying money can buy success.

I wouldn't agree with you that there is a lack of success in Dublin hurling, look at the last 10 years compared to the previous 10. First League title since the 1930's in 2011, first Provincial title in 52 years in 2013. Three Minor Provincial titles in 2011,2012 and 2016 and got to two all Ireland finals in 2011 and 2012.

Considering the low base it started from and given the preference to play football in Dublin, I don't think we can say Dublin Hurling hasn't had success since the financial injections."]Well it's a fact that finance is essential and if you prefer the terminology that's fine.
Another way of looking at your point in relation to any success at underage for the Dublin hurlers is that it does demonstrate just how underfunded Dublin GAA has always been previously but this generally gets lost in the discussion. Dublin have always had talented hurlers but not the organisation and coaching required.
However, we are relating the funding issue to senior level success and Dublin in my opinion are no closer now to winning an all Ireland hurling title than they were before.
If there is evidence to show otherwise, I would be happy to see it."]The football was always the priority, the obsession was never to catch Kilkenny, Cork or Tipperary in hurling, it was to try and catch Kerry in the football, and still is."]So you're kind of admitting that a huge part of Dublins success is their commitment to and love of gaelic football, that if they didn't care so much they wouldn't have achieved a fraction of what they did the last 10 years."]Well I think you are right teams need a lot of things to be successful, the most important is motivation, look at the stranded whales beached in the English premiership no money will motivate you to win if your pocket is stuffed full of money already. That is something Dublin doesn't have, but motivation is a real key to their success, along with the other things. The ratio of Hurling to Football across both genders is roughly 3:1 in Dublin so Dublin doesn't have a rich pool of talent a lot of them play Football not hurling. Anf that is the core problem for Dublin. When people look around Leinster and see the the de-motivation at county level football it is happening in Dublin at club level, the more Dublinfootball achieves at county the first loser is Hurling always."]Can't compare teams in English Premiership to anything in Gaelic football, chalk and cheese, but if you want to, just look at Leeds United, let nobody say they don't have motivation. In Dublin, playing to retain your place is motivation enough, because there's always another man to take your place.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 09/05/2021 17:33:56    2340770

Link

Great win for Antrim, delighted for them. Let's hope they can drive on from here and its not just a token victory. I'm sure every hurling fan would love to see them on a roll.
Biggest problem Clare have and its been there for a good number of years is how nice they are. When you hear of the savage training sessions in the 90s there mustn't even be a hurl broke in anger in the current setup. Far too nice.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1899 - 09/05/2021 20:18:46    2340805

Link

Replying To galwayford:  "Regarding Galway beating Dubs. They drew with them in the league down in Salthill a few years ago. They also played them in the All Ireland semi in Aug 2018. They were even in the first half and Galway were awarded a peno. Unfortunately Cluxton saved it, Dubs went on to win out in the second half easily enough. Missed peno cost Galway dear."
Meath lost by 4 points to Dublin in Parnell Park last year shortly before the championship started, what seemed to be an encouraging display turned out to be completely irrelevant though come the championship.
What I found very disheartening last year was I thought with the disruption to preparation of teams it would give teams a much better chance against Dublin. It didn't work out that way.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1340 - 10/05/2021 12:14:11    2340897

Link