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Replying To bloodyban: "Irish history is taught from a nationalist perspective. It's very poor. They don't teach much about our generals in the British army or hard fought campaigns all over the world in forging the Empire. Its all Norman invasion, Cromwell...failed up risings ect and the 1916 rising is seen as some sort of messianic pure revolt. No balance. Jez I forgot the 'Famine...the auld Gortha mor. Its only brought up every 10 mins by the beardie teachers and repubkicans....The uprisings failed because the people didn't want them to succeed by the way..spies and informers are used as reasons..all baloney..they didn't have support.
And the patronising tone of the poster who notes the partitionist views in the commuter belt. An awful attitude of superiority...as if we can't come to any conclusions that don't align with his one eyed republicanism. As if being proud of our state as it currently is ,is a heresy or slur on our ancestors. Give me a break. I love Ireland as it is without Northern Ireland . We fought a bitter civil war to keep the 26 counties and to keep Republicans from wrecking the whole island. . The Northern Nationalist view point has no respect for the 'free Stater' like me so why should I respect them. Id prefer a United Ireland with the Unionists but without the Northern Nationalists. Iv more in common with them ,except hurling..but then the Northern Republicans wouldn't know much about hurling either." Unfortunately you are falling into your own trap re history, what you are rightly calling out unfortunately you are throwing the bath water out with the baby. Lets be clear in the 19thC 75% of the entire British army was based in Ireland for training purposes. We had an armed police force of nearly 20,000. I agree with you that the Duke of Wellington and his brother have been ignored or had false words put in his mouth namely by Daniel O'Connell. But it was due to the two Wellingtons that Catholic emancipation came about. And on O'Connell he was a member of the Whigs and the same party as Lord Trevelyan. In 1798 he was a Yeoman and in the 1830's harshly treated his tenants. BUT to say that the cause of Ireland had no ground swell of support is totally incorrect. Ireland was grinding under laws from 1696 to 1800 that forced 80% of the population into poverty, end off. In the French Military records for the 1700's there records of 500,000 soldiers and families from Ireland receiving pensions. In Dublin City between 1784 and 1790 there was 240 public executions, live was bitch for ordinary people. The scale of this is what would you call it? It amazes me that people in grinding misery facing muskets, bayonets or the rope managed to rebel at all. But all movements had huge ground swells of support. Read the reports by the English they where terrified. But i accept the Catholic church mainly was responsible for wriitting their narrative which wrote enlightened protestants out.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 27/05/2021 10:07:57
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Replying To bloodyban: "Very patronising view of Southerners here. The idea that being proud of Ireland as the 26 county entity is a risible thing is pathetic. I'm proud of Ireland as it is. I do t need any Republicans telling me I'm reading my History incorrectly. Some patronising. If there's ever a united Ireland I'd have way more in common with middle class Unionists than anyone else up there. Iv lived there and the assumption amongst the Nationalist community that Southerners should row in behind their narrative should be dismissed straight away. One of my main hero's is Kevin O Higgins and I agree with almost all his actions. Do you think we will give that up for a country run by working class Republicans. No thanks" So you are saying if you are a republican you are a blue collar/working class. Sounds like an old stereotype. I bet many unionists are working class too, it breaks pretty even I would imagine. I know in the west of Ireland many republicans are middle class and educated. You use the word "patronising" lol but I enjoyed your post thank you.
suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 27/05/2021 10:19:46
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There will be a United Ireland within twenty years, possibly within ten. It is inevitable. If you look at the numbers there is consistently high support for unity among those under 40. Unity will likely be delayed for a little while as there is significant number of West Brits from the Catholic/ Nationalist community who have been indoctrinated into the British state. These people are primarily motivated by selfish self interest. The irony being they are propping up a state and a Unionist people who sought to make them second class citizens. Unionist support for a United Ireland is virtually nothing, less tham 5℅. If a border poll was held now the votes of the West Brits woud likely win the border poll for the Unionists. Given the levels of support for unity among those under 40 in 5-10 yrars a border pol will pass.
Once the unity votes pass a 32 county Socialist Republic can be set up. Money can be redistributed from the rich to the poor. This might help slighty to appease poor communities like the Shankill etc. The Irish army will be needed to deal woth disgruntled Unionists on the ground and UN peace keepers.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 10:29:37
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The Covid pandemic has emphasised the need for a United within as much as anything. Such situations would have been much better managed with an all-island approach and strategy.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 10:45:25
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Interesting quote from Sammy Douglas DUP. Suggests that the Unionist revolt would eventually subside, but it would very bad for a number of years.
"I know a lot of people fear a united Ireland. But it is a bit like death. Most people don't fear being dead, they fear the process of dying.
"Irish unity wouldn't be as bad as the process of getting Irish unity. You could actually probably live quite peacefully in a united Ireland; it is just that the ten years of it becoming a united Ireland would probably be pretty awful."
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 10:57:16
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Replying To Bon: "6 county republicans chips on both shoulders." You'd need a chip on your brain to believe that sweeping statement
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 27/05/2021 11:14:06
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "Interesting quote from Sammy Douglas DUP. Suggests that the Unionist revolt would eventually subside, but it would very bad for a number of years.
"I know a lot of people fear a united Ireland. But it is a bit like death. Most people don't fear being dead, they fear the process of dying.
"Irish unity wouldn't be as bad as the process of getting Irish unity. You could actually probably live quite peacefully in a united Ireland; it is just that the ten years of it becoming a united Ireland would probably be pretty awful."" And probably pretty savage as well.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 27/05/2021 11:17:12
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "There will be a United Ireland within twenty years, possibly within ten. It is inevitable. If you look at the numbers there is consistently high support for unity among those under 40. Unity will likely be delayed for a little while as there is significant number of West Brits from the Catholic/ Nationalist community who have been indoctrinated into the British state. These people are primarily motivated by selfish self interest. The irony being they are propping up a state and a Unionist people who sought to make them second class citizens. Unionist support for a United Ireland is virtually nothing, less tham 5℅. If a border poll was held now the votes of the West Brits woud likely win the border poll for the Unionists. Given the levels of support for unity among those under 40 in 5-10 yrars a border pol will pass.
Once the unity votes pass a 32 county Socialist Republic can be set up. Money can be redistributed from the rich to the poor. This might help slighty to appease poor communities like the Shankill etc. The Irish army will be needed to deal woth disgruntled Unionists on the ground and UN peace keepers." Lol, yeah, I'm sure all these rich working people like postmen and carpenters will have no problem with "the poor" getting 5 bedroom houses given to them free of charge while they can barely afford rent. Roll on the socialist utopia.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 27/05/2021 13:02:39
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Replying To Galway9801: "Lol, yeah, I'm sure all these rich working people like postmen and carpenters will have no problem with "the poor" getting 5 bedroom houses given to them free of charge while they can barely afford rent. Roll on the socialist utopia." Wouldn't say hes talking about rich carpenters and postmen. The 26 counties is the 5th richest country by GDP per capita in the world. Google it. We have a shocking GINI coefficient, the measure of wealth distribution. Google that also. The richest in Ireland should be paying more tax. Postmen and carpenters should both be paying less tax than currently in any fair 32 county socialist society.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 27/05/2021 13:34:25
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Replying To Galway9801: "Lol, yeah, I'm sure all these rich working people like postmen and carpenters will have no problem with "the poor" getting 5 bedroom houses given to them free of charge while they can barely afford rent. Roll on the socialist utopia." Loyalists accept living in poverty under British rule due to their attachment to Britain. They will fight more against a United Ireland if they are left in poverty in what they would see as a hostile state. Poverty will fuel resentment. Reasons given for the recent riots in loyalist areas included that they have seen no economic dividend from the Good Friday agreement. This could cause more trouble than flags and emblems; it could be explained to loyalists that they are already represented on the Irish flag. A hardcore of loyalists will never accept a United Ireland. With the British gone they are limited in what they could do as they have no allies but they could cause serious disruption.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 13:35:36
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Replying To Viking66: "Wouldn't say hes talking about rich carpenters and postmen. The 26 counties is the 5th richest country by GDP per capita in the world. Google it. We have a shocking GINI coefficient, the measure of wealth distribution. Google that also. The richest in Ireland should be paying more tax. Postmen and carpenters should both be paying less tax than currently in any fair 32 county socialist society." Exactly. The richest would pay more tax. Those on modest incomes like postmen and carpenters should pay less tax. Its only those above a certain income bracket who will need to pay more tax for the common good.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 13:45:49
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Replying To AfricanGael: "And probably pretty savage as well." Definitely. Given how loyalists are reacting to an "economic United Ireland" created by the protocol imposed upon them the British government . This is mild compared to what will happen when there is an actual United Ireland. The Irish Government will need to have a no nonsense approach.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 13:52:23
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Replying To Viking66: "Wouldn't say hes talking about rich carpenters and postmen. The 26 counties is the 5th richest country by GDP per capita in the world. Google it. We have a shocking GINI coefficient, the measure of wealth distribution. Google that also. The richest in Ireland should be paying more tax. Postmen and carpenters should both be paying less tax than currently in any fair 32 county socialist society." If you're still using GDP to tell you how rich Ireland is, you'll get a rude awakening by the truth one day. Maybe google Leprechaun Economics instead.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 27/05/2021 14:07:06
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Replying To Young_gael: "Again to reiterate, I hate talking about politics on forums, Im here purely to talk GAA, namely football, and namely all things Meath. But in the spirit of the post where I am addressed twice, I have to respond.
I agree with you on education, by the way. It is thought from an Irish nationalist point of view, presented as an 800 year constant struggle of oppression and toil, and indulging the period from 1798 until 1922 as the tipping point in our history from which we prevailed into a free state and beyond. No mention of Tom Crean, nor Arthur Wellesley, and not a whole pile on Daniel O'Connell (which the main streets in 2/3 of our cities is named from, or my favourite Irish person of all time, CS Parnell. And the reason there isnt much on them and many others? They worked within the British system. Simple. It doesent suit a basic Irish history system to indulge the extremely complex nature of our history.
I dont have an attitude of superiority as you said of me... Im an Irish nationalist and id never call myself a Republican, again note the complexity of language in Irish society. I believe that truly deep down a lot of people, particularly when they study Ireland since partition, often wonder within themselves if freedom was even worth it, when you consider just how poor our leaders were almost non-stop for decades. When you consider the all-emcompassing rule of the catholic church. Absolutely. Ive often had this thought myself. I think that you, bloodyban, are probably a unionist yourself deep down. To further address your saying I have a patronising tone, I dont intend to. My way of writing has frequently been seen as patronsing on these forums, but its just the way I write.
Ireland must be unique among the nations on Earth in that aspousing nationalist views, and the nationalist ideal can be met with hostility. Again, I agree with a lot of what you said, just not the argumentative points. Im not here for arguments. Ive studied Irish history through every prism I can and I have enormous respect for figures far beyond the realms of what we teach our leaving certs. There were some great Irish people who worked within the empire, including 3 British prime ministers, one of which lived scarcely 10-12 miles from where I am writing. If Irish history teaches me one thing it is that conciliation is the most important thing, and accepting complexity and finding a common ground is the most important thing, but from my own learning I still conclude that we are better off by ourselves, ruling ourselves, and for that resason I am a 32 county nationalist and I think I always will be. Its not about starry eyed idealism for me, or slogans or chants, but I honestly believe the people of this country are better off free of Britain, while still accepting and coming to terms with our history. Theres only so much I can get across in a message on the forums but I hope your view point of me has changed, even slightly, and Im sure face to face we could discuss these things for hours." Brilliant post.
I agree alot of our history taught in school is taught from the Nationalist view (probably most countries in the world have a bias to their side of history) it probably hasn't changed much within the education system since the forming of the republic of Ireland and Ireland's role within the British empire should be looked at more in school as well as the country's struggle for freedom. Also while it maybe uncomfortable there is a case should the abuse in industrial schools and mother and baby homes should be covered or remembered in schools a real shame on our history. But without sounding like a cliche Ireland as a small country has a long unique history.
I mentioned on this site a few times I'm in favour of an United Ireland but it needs the Unionist to feel they are a part of the country for it to be peaceful, power sharing would play a big part if it's to happen. I agree Ireland would be better off without Britain but there should be a friendly relationship between us and them. Also I do believe there is a question to be asked would we be better off without the European Union also, I don't know the answer to this question yet but the pros and cons should be looked at down the line if they keep dictating to us the way they are.
DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 27/05/2021 14:13:23
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Replying To SaffronDon: "You'd need a chip on your brain to believe that sweeping statement" No I think you'll find your wrong there.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1909 - 27/05/2021 14:17:28
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Replying To REDANDBLACK30: "There will be a United Ireland within twenty years, possibly within ten. It is inevitable. If you look at the numbers there is consistently high support for unity among those under 40. Unity will likely be delayed for a little while as there is significant number of West Brits from the Catholic/ Nationalist community who have been indoctrinated into the British state. These people are primarily motivated by selfish self interest. The irony being they are propping up a state and a Unionist people who sought to make them second class citizens. Unionist support for a United Ireland is virtually nothing, less tham 5℅. If a border poll was held now the votes of the West Brits woud likely win the border poll for the Unionists. Given the levels of support for unity among those under 40 in 5-10 yrars a border pol will pass.
Once the unity votes pass a 32 county Socialist Republic can be set up. Money can be redistributed from the rich to the poor. This might help slighty to appease poor communities like the Shankill etc. The Irish army will be needed to deal woth disgruntled Unionists on the ground and UN peace keepers." This is a genuine question. From mostly Sinn Fein supporters I hear this "socialist republic" what does this entail?
I'm a socialist in that I believe every child should have a book, a chance at a decent education, a full stomach and clothes on their backs. I believe if someone has worked hard all their life they should be able to retire without financial worry and also hard working people who fall on hardship through loss of employment or fall on ill health they should be helped out to get them back on their feet. Also any person or child who is seriously sick or disabled there is the health care and services there to look after them. So when I wake up at 5:30am for work I know my income tax is going to the right people.
But sometimes when Mary Lou talks about the vulnerable I think she includes those who sleep in til noon who want the government and tax payers to fund their sky sports subscriptions, their trips to the pub and the bookies and their trips to Spain in summer. And they are others who want everything for nothing like big houses and stables for their horses who Sinn Fein pander to. These people should be made work for it instead getting everything handed it to them without question.
DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 27/05/2021 14:43:55
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Replying To Young_gael: "Again to reiterate, I hate talking about politics on forums, Im here purely to talk GAA, namely football, and namely all things Meath. But in the spirit of the post where I am addressed twice, I have to respond.
I agree with you on education, by the way. It is thought from an Irish nationalist point of view, presented as an 800 year constant struggle of oppression and toil, and indulging the period from 1798 until 1922 as the tipping point in our history from which we prevailed into a free state and beyond. No mention of Tom Crean, nor Arthur Wellesley, and not a whole pile on Daniel O'Connell (which the main streets in 2/3 of our cities is named from, or my favourite Irish person of all time, CS Parnell. And the reason there isnt much on them and many others? They worked within the British system. Simple. It doesent suit a basic Irish history system to indulge the extremely complex nature of our history.
I dont have an attitude of superiority as you said of me... Im an Irish nationalist and id never call myself a Republican, again note the complexity of language in Irish society. I believe that truly deep down a lot of people, particularly when they study Ireland since partition, often wonder within themselves if freedom was even worth it, when you consider just how poor our leaders were almost non-stop for decades. When you consider the all-emcompassing rule of the catholic church. Absolutely. Ive often had this thought myself. I think that you, bloodyban, are probably a unionist yourself deep down. To further address your saying I have a patronising tone, I dont intend to. My way of writing has frequently been seen as patronsing on these forums, but its just the way I write.
Ireland must be unique among the nations on Earth in that aspousing nationalist views, and the nationalist ideal can be met with hostility. Again, I agree with a lot of what you said, just not the argumentative points. Im not here for arguments. Ive studied Irish history through every prism I can and I have enormous respect for figures far beyond the realms of what we teach our leaving certs. There were some great Irish people who worked within the empire, including 3 British prime ministers, one of which lived scarcely 10-12 miles from where I am writing. If Irish history teaches me one thing it is that conciliation is the most important thing, and accepting complexity and finding a common ground is the most important thing, but from my own learning I still conclude that we are better off by ourselves, ruling ourselves, and for that resason I am a 32 county nationalist and I think I always will be. Its not about starry eyed idealism for me, or slogans or chants, but I honestly believe the people of this country are better off free of Britain, while still accepting and coming to terms with our history. Theres only so much I can get across in a message on the forums but I hope your view point of me has changed, even slightly, and Im sure face to face we could discuss these things for hours." Good post. I dont mean to come across as dismissive or angry. My posts are genuine but my writing isn't top notch. I agree with you...My shade of green is pale. I'm am proud of the State as it is and we are getting on OK. I worry about the 'republicanisation ' of our country. I'm a Conservative and feel I'm not represented properly by FG even though I'm a member. But that's all an aside. I'm believe we are in no fit state to unify with Northern Ireland. I dont want it for cultural and economic reasons. Alot of it is Sinn Fein.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 27/05/2021 14:44:05
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Replying To Bon: "No I think you'll find your wrong there." You know all of them personally do you?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 27/05/2021 15:01:02
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Replying To DUALSUPPORT: "This is a genuine question. From mostly Sinn Fein supporters I hear this "socialist republic" what does this entail?
I'm a socialist in that I believe every child should have a book, a chance at a decent education, a full stomach and clothes on their backs. I believe if someone has worked hard all their life they should be able to retire without financial worry and also hard working people who fall on hardship through loss of employment or fall on ill health they should be helped out to get them back on their feet. Also any person or child who is seriously sick or disabled there is the health care and services there to look after them. So when I wake up at 5:30am for work I know my income tax is going to the right people.
But sometimes when Mary Lou talks about the vulnerable I think she includes those who sleep in til noon who want the government and tax payers to fund their sky sports subscriptions, their trips to the pub and the bookies and their trips to Spain in summer. And they are others who want everything for nothing like big houses and stables for their horses who Sinn Fein pander to. These people should be made work for it instead getting everything handed it to them without question." It means a fairer society. Those with excess wealth with a lot more than they need to live a comfortable life making a fairer contribution to society. People who have lost their job in the pandemic for instance will often have to live on £75 a week. This is the level of JSA in the North. They might get slightly more on Universal credit. They will get vastly less than the €225 or so a week in the Republic. Many will have to use food banks just to get buy. Is this fair?? People become unemployed for many reasons including anxiety and depression, often no fault of the own. In a Socialist society the vunerable will be looked after. The uncapped greed of the rich will be checked.
REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 27/05/2021 15:15:20
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Replying To DUALSUPPORT: "This is a genuine question. From mostly Sinn Fein supporters I hear this "socialist republic" what does this entail?
I'm a socialist in that I believe every child should have a book, a chance at a decent education, a full stomach and clothes on their backs. I believe if someone has worked hard all their life they should be able to retire without financial worry and also hard working people who fall on hardship through loss of employment or fall on ill health they should be helped out to get them back on their feet. Also any person or child who is seriously sick or disabled there is the health care and services there to look after them. So when I wake up at 5:30am for work I know my income tax is going to the right people.
But sometimes when Mary Lou talks about the vulnerable I think she includes those who sleep in til noon who want the government and tax payers to fund their sky sports subscriptions, their trips to the pub and the bookies and their trips to Spain in summer. And they are others who want everything for nothing like big houses and stables for their horses who Sinn Fein pander to. These people should be made work for it instead getting everything handed it to them without question." Often the people that 'sleep until noon' as you put it are people that have opted out of the workforce for a variety of reasons. Not all of their own making. People that 'sleep until noon' are entitled to their dignity the same those that get up at 0530. As one of the 0530 brigade have no problem paying taxes to help those that sleep until noon. I would prefer if the wealthy owners of capital adhered to the spirit of taxation and paid their fair share (rather than trying to find loopholes to avoid paying).
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 27/05/2021 15:15:42
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