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Replying To MicktheMiller: "Why should the Republic always have to make concessions to the Unionists, who in their heyday practised discrimination on their Nationalist fellow citizens? The only word in their vocabulary is no, and we can see the absolute disaster the DUP made of that over Brexit.
I would like to know what are they prepared to concede as part of a future settlement in this country." I feel you're already going wrong when you say why do the Republic have to make concessions. It's kinda the opposite. It'll not be the Republic in that sense anymore. It's like Young_gael said, it will most likely be a new state with new constitution with new symbols in the event of unity. They're not being annexed by the Republic by the way, it'll be a union of the two. And as certain things are so different in the two, there will be concessions or a mix on both sides. Don't think that it'll be one way, or that we have to 'make concessions' only to the Unionists. This will have to be done, we can't do to them what they did in the North 100 years ago. That's a recipe for disaster if we're not inclusive. We need to be better
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 26/05/2021 13:07:53
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Replying To Young_gael: "Look dont get me wrong, i agree with the principle of everything youre saying and of course youre right but the only way this thing will work is if we can forget about history and literally create a brand new state or a federation of two states. That may mean losing the tricolour, the anthem, civil service etc, or perhaps joint authority from Dublin/Belfast with special reservations for seats from the British community. The biggest obstacle to reunification may well become people in the south who might not want to bother or would not like to see us borrow money every year to integrate the six counties, and I understand their positions wholeheartedly, but if people think that the final frontier are just going to "admit defeat", and are going to live under a tricolour and sing amhrain na bhiann, they have another thing coming, you know?
The facts are:
1) If NI went independent, for arguments sake, tomorrow morning - its national debt would be 27% of its GDP. Ours in the South is 1%.
2) The GDP of NI is a completely falsified figure of 10 billion pounds which is a yearly stipend from Britain to run the place. Ours in the south is 300 billion.
3) 40% of the NI workforce are public servants. The economy cannot attract the investment which the south can and in spite of unionist plans to remove the NI protocol, if it goes they will be dragged into an economic abyss. The united Irish economy is already a complete reality.
4) the average Joe in the south has double the spending power of that in the north.
5) There are more immigrants on the island than unionists.
All nationalists have to do is wait... the ball is very firmly in the court of unionism to make moves toward the future, id love if they would just look at the figures like the ones above, see the writing on the wall, join up with the south and that would be that - be I fear they will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into any form of unification." "40% of the NI workforce are public servants" That figure is way off the mark, it's nowhere near 40%.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 26/05/2021 13:11:42
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "I feel you're already going wrong when you say why do the Republic have to make concessions. It's kinda the opposite. It'll not be the Republic in that sense anymore. It's like Young_gael said, it will most likely be a new state with new constitution with new symbols in the event of unity. They're not being annexed by the Republic by the way, it'll be a union of the two. And as certain things are so different in the two, there will be concessions or a mix on both sides. Don't think that it'll be one way, or that we have to 'make concessions' only to the Unionists. This will have to be done, we can't do to them what they did in the North 100 years ago. That's a recipe for disaster if we're not inclusive. We need to be better" 100%. Very good post.
Many people on here don't seem to realise that a 32 county Ireland, and a United Ireland, are not necessarily one and the same.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1708 - 26/05/2021 15:01:51
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Replying To Galway9801: "100%. Very good post.
Many people on here don't seem to realise that a 32 county Ireland, and a United Ireland, are not necessarily one and the same." Most people think it'll be a simple 26+6 Republic, and carry on as we were without any idea of what that means. I'm all for unity, but I am aware of what we would need to concede and add on, and what they will need to do too.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 26/05/2021 15:23:05
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Replying To Galway9801: "100%. Very good post.
Many people on here don't seem to realise that a 32 county Ireland, and a United Ireland, are not necessarily one and the same." I think most of us do. Sorry to burst your bubble.
MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 421 - 26/05/2021 15:30:52
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Replying To Wally: "Very good post." I agree, excellent post.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 274 - 26/05/2021 15:48:45
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "I can tell you straight away. Essentially nothing. You must remember what you describe as "this country" does not exist if you mean a 32 county entity. As far as they are concerned, you and I live in a foreign country so they won't be conceding anything ever. Like it or not, if there ever is a united Ireland the concessions will all be one way -- unless unionist support in N.I/ 6 Counties fades away over time to something like 10% - 15% , which of course is not going to happen." As Young_Gael said the South has become more secular in outlook, and whilst it isn't as obvious this goes for many parts of the North as well; which is shown by an upsurge in votes for secular/liberal parties particularly in traditional unionist areas. I think unification is achievable in those communities and many may see the more secular outlook as a positive step, as opposed to hanging on to a "culture" that does little for them.
In saying that if a Border Poll happened the reality is concessions would still have to be discussed; as part of the campaign to re-assure people from more liberal unionist areas that everything they knew before wouldn't disappear.
Irish Rugby have already shown the kind of compromises that would likely be required.
When a more secular society and cultural norms are solved and put on the table, everyday politics would take over; the union would be gone and genuine policies would be the order of the day.
Personally I think Unionism would find a home and a voice in politics and over time would see the economic benefits of one economy; it's possible there would be a structure in Belfast but I think what would be more likely is parties in the south would react to the new political landscape and hundreds of thousands of new votes coming into their political structure and react.
In my opinion parties would try to attract these votes; I feel purely Northern parties would struggle or disappear. As a result large parts of the "unionist voice" would find a strong voice/input and I think it's likely this voice would become part of FG meaning they'd be at the centre of one of the biggest political parties on the island.
SF would obviously concern the established parties more so than they do now due to their strong base in the North, hence why I do think FG would target unionist voices; there is probably a natural link there anyhow.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 26/05/2021 15:56:59
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Replying To MicktheMiller: "I think most of us do. Sorry to burst your bubble." That's the point. We know you and lots of others think that. It'll not be reality though I'm afraid. Quite naïve a bit to think so
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 26/05/2021 16:09:58
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Replying To bad.monkey: "I have found that most Irish people are very selective in what history they will learn and only read what supports their already entrenched political viewpoint - unfortunately they will only read the 'nationalist' version of Irish history and use silly terms like West Brits..etc at anyone who strays from the Nationalist agenda - like Irish peoples involvement in WW1. Irish history has become a political tool to indoctrinate. Sad state of affairs." No it hasn't. Irish history is what it is. What you take from it and how you interpret it is entirely your own prerogative.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 26/05/2021 16:37:10
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Irish history is taught from a nationalist perspective. It's very poor. They don't teach much about our generals in the British army or hard fought campaigns all over the world in forging the Empire. Its all Norman invasion, Cromwell...failed up risings ect and the 1916 rising is seen as some sort of messianic pure revolt. No balance. Jez I forgot the 'Famine...the auld Gortha mor. Its only brought up every 10 mins by the beardie teachers and repubkicans....The uprisings failed because the people didn't want them to succeed by the way..spies and informers are used as reasons..all baloney..they didn't have support.
And the patronising tone of the poster who notes the partitionist views in the commuter belt. An awful attitude of superiority...as if we can't come to any conclusions that don't align with his one eyed republicanism. As if being proud of our state as it currently is ,is a heresy or slur on our ancestors. Give me a break. I love Ireland as it is without Northern Ireland . We fought a bitter civil war to keep the 26 counties and to keep Republicans from wrecking the whole island. . The Northern Nationalist view point has no respect for the 'free Stater' like me so why should I respect them. Id prefer a United Ireland with the Unionists but without the Northern Nationalists. Iv more in common with them ,except hurling..but then the Northern Republicans wouldn't know much about hurling either.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 26/05/2021 22:00:56
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Very patronising view of Southerners here. The idea that being proud of Ireland as the 26 county entity is a risible thing is pathetic. I'm proud of Ireland as it is. I do t need any Republicans telling me I'm reading my History incorrectly. Some patronising. If there's ever a united Ireland I'd have way more in common with middle class Unionists than anyone else up there. Iv lived there and the assumption amongst the Nationalist community that Southerners should row in behind their narrative should be dismissed straight away. One of my main hero's is Kevin O Higgins and I agree with almost all his actions. Do you think we will give that up for a country run by working class Republicans. No thanks
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 26/05/2021 22:15:59
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Replying To bloodyban: "Irish history is taught from a nationalist perspective. It's very poor. They don't teach much about our generals in the British army or hard fought campaigns all over the world in forging the Empire. Its all Norman invasion, Cromwell...failed up risings ect and the 1916 rising is seen as some sort of messianic pure revolt. No balance. Jez I forgot the 'Famine...the auld Gortha mor. Its only brought up every 10 mins by the beardie teachers and repubkicans....The uprisings failed because the people didn't want them to succeed by the way..spies and informers are used as reasons..all baloney..they didn't have support.
And the patronising tone of the poster who notes the partitionist views in the commuter belt. An awful attitude of superiority...as if we can't come to any conclusions that don't align with his one eyed republicanism. As if being proud of our state as it currently is ,is a heresy or slur on our ancestors. Give me a break. I love Ireland as it is without Northern Ireland . We fought a bitter civil war to keep the 26 counties and to keep Republicans from wrecking the whole island. . The Northern Nationalist view point has no respect for the 'free Stater' like me so why should I respect them. Id prefer a United Ireland with the Unionists but without the Northern Nationalists. Iv more in common with them ,except hurling..but then the Northern Republicans wouldn't know much about hurling either." Your view of the teaching of Irish history in our schools today is poorly informed. Your interpretation of Irish history is jaundiced. Your sneering tone in relation to the events of The Famine is obnoxious. Your claim that you have more in common with middle class Unionists than Northern Nationalists rings true because you sound very like Gregory Campbell and his ilk.
Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 26/05/2021 22:46:16
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Replying To bloodyban: "Very patronising view of Southerners here. The idea that being proud of Ireland as the 26 county entity is a risible thing is pathetic. I'm proud of Ireland as it is. I do t need any Republicans telling me I'm reading my History incorrectly. Some patronising. If there's ever a united Ireland I'd have way more in common with middle class Unionists than anyone else up there. Iv lived there and the assumption amongst the Nationalist community that Southerners should row in behind their narrative should be dismissed straight away. One of my main hero's is Kevin O Higgins and I agree with almost all his actions. Do you think we will give that up for a country run by working class Republicans. No thanks" I am a bit confused here.You have a lot in common with unionists but are proud of a 26 county state separate from Britain. Your hero is a man that had his best man executed. I am sure you are not serious.
gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1057 - 27/05/2021 00:11:03
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6 county republicans chips on both shoulders.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1909 - 27/05/2021 00:17:29
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Replying To bloodyban: "Irish history is taught from a nationalist perspective. It's very poor. They don't teach much about our generals in the British army or hard fought campaigns all over the world in forging the Empire. Its all Norman invasion, Cromwell...failed up risings ect and the 1916 rising is seen as some sort of messianic pure revolt. No balance. Jez I forgot the 'Famine...the auld Gortha mor. Its only brought up every 10 mins by the beardie teachers and repubkicans....The uprisings failed because the people didn't want them to succeed by the way..spies and informers are used as reasons..all baloney..they didn't have support.
And the patronising tone of the poster who notes the partitionist views in the commuter belt. An awful attitude of superiority...as if we can't come to any conclusions that don't align with his one eyed republicanism. As if being proud of our state as it currently is ,is a heresy or slur on our ancestors. Give me a break. I love Ireland as it is without Northern Ireland . We fought a bitter civil war to keep the 26 counties and to keep Republicans from wrecking the whole island. . The Northern Nationalist view point has no respect for the 'free Stater' like me so why should I respect them. Id prefer a United Ireland with the Unionists but without the Northern Nationalists. Iv more in common with them ,except hurling..but then the Northern Republicans wouldn't know much about hurling either." Again to reiterate, I hate talking about politics on forums, Im here purely to talk GAA, namely football, and namely all things Meath. But in the spirit of the post where I am addressed twice, I have to respond.
I agree with you on education, by the way. It is thought from an Irish nationalist point of view, presented as an 800 year constant struggle of oppression and toil, and indulging the period from 1798 until 1922 as the tipping point in our history from which we prevailed into a free state and beyond. No mention of Tom Crean, nor Arthur Wellesley, and not a whole pile on Daniel O'Connell (which the main streets in 2/3 of our cities is named from, or my favourite Irish person of all time, CS Parnell. And the reason there isnt much on them and many others? They worked within the British system. Simple. It doesent suit a basic Irish history system to indulge the extremely complex nature of our history.
I dont have an attitude of superiority as you said of me... Im an Irish nationalist and id never call myself a Republican, again note the complexity of language in Irish society. I believe that truly deep down a lot of people, particularly when they study Ireland since partition, often wonder within themselves if freedom was even worth it, when you consider just how poor our leaders were almost non-stop for decades. When you consider the all-emcompassing rule of the catholic church. Absolutely. Ive often had this thought myself. I think that you, bloodyban, are probably a unionist yourself deep down. To further address your saying I have a patronising tone, I dont intend to. My way of writing has frequently been seen as patronsing on these forums, but its just the way I write.
Ireland must be unique among the nations on Earth in that aspousing nationalist views, and the nationalist ideal can be met with hostility. Again, I agree with a lot of what you said, just not the argumentative points. Im not here for arguments. Ive studied Irish history through every prism I can and I have enormous respect for figures far beyond the realms of what we teach our leaving certs. There were some great Irish people who worked within the empire, including 3 British prime ministers, one of which lived scarcely 10-12 miles from where I am writing. If Irish history teaches me one thing it is that conciliation is the most important thing, and accepting complexity and finding a common ground is the most important thing, but from my own learning I still conclude that we are better off by ourselves, ruling ourselves, and for that resason I am a 32 county nationalist and I think I always will be. Its not about starry eyed idealism for me, or slogans or chants, but I honestly believe the people of this country are better off free of Britain, while still accepting and coming to terms with our history. Theres only so much I can get across in a message on the forums but I hope your view point of me has changed, even slightly, and Im sure face to face we could discuss these things for hours.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 27/05/2021 06:52:51
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Replying To bloodyban: "Irish history is taught from a nationalist perspective. It's very poor. They don't teach much about our generals in the British army or hard fought campaigns all over the world in forging the Empire. Its all Norman invasion, Cromwell...failed up risings ect and the 1916 rising is seen as some sort of messianic pure revolt. No balance. Jez I forgot the 'Famine...the auld Gortha mor. Its only brought up every 10 mins by the beardie teachers and repubkicans....The uprisings failed because the people didn't want them to succeed by the way..spies and informers are used as reasons..all baloney..they didn't have support.
And the patronising tone of the poster who notes the partitionist views in the commuter belt. An awful attitude of superiority...as if we can't come to any conclusions that don't align with his one eyed republicanism. As if being proud of our state as it currently is ,is a heresy or slur on our ancestors. Give me a break. I love Ireland as it is without Northern Ireland . We fought a bitter civil war to keep the 26 counties and to keep Republicans from wrecking the whole island. . The Northern Nationalist view point has no respect for the 'free Stater' like me so why should I respect them. Id prefer a United Ireland with the Unionists but without the Northern Nationalists. Iv more in common with them ,except hurling..but then the Northern Republicans wouldn't know much about hurling either." Your next post after this one says people here are being very patronising about Southerners, yet here you are in this post being very patronising about Northerners. Come on now...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 27/05/2021 07:49:05
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Replying To Bon: "6 county republicans chips on both shoulders." Are you somehow surprised about this?
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 27/05/2021 09:24:10
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "Are you somehow surprised about this?" Not in the slightest.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1909 - 27/05/2021 09:37:19
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Replying To Young_gael: "Again to reiterate, I hate talking about politics on forums, Im here purely to talk GAA, namely football, and namely all things Meath. But in the spirit of the post where I am addressed twice, I have to respond.
I agree with you on education, by the way. It is thought from an Irish nationalist point of view, presented as an 800 year constant struggle of oppression and toil, and indulging the period from 1798 until 1922 as the tipping point in our history from which we prevailed into a free state and beyond. No mention of Tom Crean, nor Arthur Wellesley, and not a whole pile on Daniel O'Connell (which the main streets in 2/3 of our cities is named from, or my favourite Irish person of all time, CS Parnell. And the reason there isnt much on them and many others? They worked within the British system. Simple. It doesent suit a basic Irish history system to indulge the extremely complex nature of our history.
I dont have an attitude of superiority as you said of me... Im an Irish nationalist and id never call myself a Republican, again note the complexity of language in Irish society. I believe that truly deep down a lot of people, particularly when they study Ireland since partition, often wonder within themselves if freedom was even worth it, when you consider just how poor our leaders were almost non-stop for decades. When you consider the all-emcompassing rule of the catholic church. Absolutely. Ive often had this thought myself. I think that you, bloodyban, are probably a unionist yourself deep down. To further address your saying I have a patronising tone, I dont intend to. My way of writing has frequently been seen as patronsing on these forums, but its just the way I write.
Ireland must be unique among the nations on Earth in that aspousing nationalist views, and the nationalist ideal can be met with hostility. Again, I agree with a lot of what you said, just not the argumentative points. Im not here for arguments. Ive studied Irish history through every prism I can and I have enormous respect for figures far beyond the realms of what we teach our leaving certs. There were some great Irish people who worked within the empire, including 3 British prime ministers, one of which lived scarcely 10-12 miles from where I am writing. If Irish history teaches me one thing it is that conciliation is the most important thing, and accepting complexity and finding a common ground is the most important thing, but from my own learning I still conclude that we are better off by ourselves, ruling ourselves, and for that resason I am a 32 county nationalist and I think I always will be. Its not about starry eyed idealism for me, or slogans or chants, but I honestly believe the people of this country are better off free of Britain, while still accepting and coming to terms with our history. Theres only so much I can get across in a message on the forums but I hope your view point of me has changed, even slightly, and Im sure face to face we could discuss these things for hours." Parnell did not always work within the system. He encouraged the most vicious boycotting of People, mainly his fellow Protestants and he coined the phrase 'Let no man stop the march of a Nation' a slogan often used by Republicans, right up to this day, to justify attacks on NI. He certainly did not always preach conciliation either.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 27/05/2021 09:41:26
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Replying To Bon: "Not in the slightest." Indeed, although I'd forgive it a lot as they've had more to go through by being Irish. Being in a sectarian gerrymandered statelet gives them a bit of a right I suppose
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2385 - 27/05/2021 09:58:00
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