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Replying To Kerry15:  "It'll be very unpopular but I think Fenton is very overrated. Yes he's one of many fantastic players Dublin have but right know I'd have Kilkenny and O'Callaghan ahead of him and in more of an all time context I'd have McCarthy and Kilkenny well ahead of him. For me he is the best midfielder around at the moment (very little competition) but I'd have him just outside the top 5 footballers in the country currently.

He's a very well rounded footballer but for me he shouldn't be in this kind of a discussion, yet at least. The main reason I'd have is that when the heat turns on and the big players need to step up he is nowhere to be seen. At the moment it's Kilkenny or O'Callaghan who produce when really really needed. Similarly his performances in All Ireland semis and finals are never as good as what you'd see in some league games or in Leinster. I wouldn't see him as a big game player at all, the looser it is the better he looks. Also his attacking output is seen as one of his biggest strengths yet whenever a suitable marker is put on him he has no impact. If he was a forward and went missing every time a good man marker was put on him he wouldn't be rated at all so why is it different for a midfielder. A final reason is I've never seen him dominate the skies in a game. He can make some spectacular catches but they're not very frequent. I accept Dublin's and their opposition's kickout strategies are a big reason for this but it's still another factor for me.

I'm not disputing he's a great player, I'm just disputing some of the hyperbolic commentary around him like being in an all time team and head and shoulders the best player in the country. Most will strongly disagree but is there anyone who agrees?"
While I don't agree, you're not the first person that I have heard such an opinion from. See, the thing is Fenton is deceptively good. The game these days is less about being on the ball or being seen on the ball. Today, it's more about what any given player is doing to be effective when he hasn't the ball or isn't directly involved in a move.

As a Kerryman, I'd suggest: think Ogie Moran. Was he the best no. 11 Kerry ever had? Perhaps? He won 8 AI medals there. How many games was he almost invisible in? Quite a few, as probably reflected in his one All-Star award. That doesn't mean that he was bad in these games, or probably in any game he ever played for Kerry. He'd a role to play, and played it excellently, to the detriment of his own game. He'd to open up space for the Sheehy, Spillane, Power, etc. Hanahoe did a similar thing for the Dubs.

Fenton is more on the ball player than Ogie Moran was, but when he is not, he's still causing 2-3 opponents a headache as regard where they should be and what they should be doing.

I'd still say Jacko would ate Fenton alive!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 09/02/2021 02:31:29    2330769

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "While I don't agree, you're not the first person that I have heard such an opinion from. See, the thing is Fenton is deceptively good. The game these days is less about being on the ball or being seen on the ball. Today, it's more about what any given player is doing to be effective when he hasn't the ball or isn't directly involved in a move.

As a Kerryman, I'd suggest: think Ogie Moran. Was he the best no. 11 Kerry ever had? Perhaps? He won 8 AI medals there. How many games was he almost invisible in? Quite a few, as probably reflected in his one All-Star award. That doesn't mean that he was bad in these games, or probably in any game he ever played for Kerry. He'd a role to play, and played it excellently, to the detriment of his own game. He'd to open up space for the Sheehy, Spillane, Power, etc. Hanahoe did a similar thing for the Dubs.

Fenton is more on the ball player than Ogie Moran was, but when he is not, he's still causing 2-3 opponents a headache as regard where they should be and what they should be doing.

I'd still say Jacko would ate Fenton alive!"
Gun to head for my best player of all time, I'd have to go with Jacko.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 10/02/2021 15:01:45    2330925

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Around 1990 I knew an old priest in Cork, who was from Kerry. He was an avid Kerry Football follower and had seen all the great ones going right back to the 1920s. I asked him who was the greatest Kerry Footballer he ever saw. I thought he go for a star of his younger years like John Joe Sheehy Paddy Kennedy or even Mick O'Connell. However Jack O'Shea was by far and away the best man to ever wear the famous Kingdom jersey, in his opinion, in his lifetime.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4338 - 10/02/2021 15:45:52    2330927

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "While I don't agree, you're not the first person that I have heard such an opinion from. See, the thing is Fenton is deceptively good. The game these days is less about being on the ball or being seen on the ball. Today, it's more about what any given player is doing to be effective when he hasn't the ball or isn't directly involved in a move.

As a Kerryman, I'd suggest: think Ogie Moran. Was he the best no. 11 Kerry ever had? Perhaps? He won 8 AI medals there. How many games was he almost invisible in? Quite a few, as probably reflected in his one All-Star award. That doesn't mean that he was bad in these games, or probably in any game he ever played for Kerry. He'd a role to play, and played it excellently, to the detriment of his own game. He'd to open up space for the Sheehy, Spillane, Power, etc. Hanahoe did a similar thing for the Dubs.

Fenton is more on the ball player than Ogie Moran was, but when he is not, he's still causing 2-3 opponents a headache as regard where they should be and what they should be doing.

I'd still say Jacko would ate Fenton alive!"
I enjoyed reading your post and found myself nodding in agreement a lot!
Brian Fenton is a magnificent player and I have watched him up close against Carlow in Portlaoise a few years ago when he was up against one of our better known players, Brendan Murphy.
Fenton did his job really well, dominating the aerial balls and keeping Brendan starved of possession by top class positioning. I thought he was really top class. He kept his concentration and stayed to task right till the end, even when many players would not have stayed on task and lost some drive as the game was being won fairly easily.
Jack played at a different time and was a great player, up there with the best ever. Brian is 27 and has another few years where if he keeps injury free and continues to progress will be up there with the very best also.
He has terrific speed and is very accurate from his right out the field and from the left closer to goals.
He can do a marking job if required and stay on task. Overall, a real joy to watch!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1821 - 10/02/2021 16:05:18    2330933

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "While I don't agree, you're not the first person that I have heard such an opinion from. See, the thing is Fenton is deceptively good. The game these days is less about being on the ball or being seen on the ball. Today, it's more about what any given player is doing to be effective when he hasn't the ball or isn't directly involved in a move.

As a Kerryman, I'd suggest: think Ogie Moran. Was he the best no. 11 Kerry ever had? Perhaps? He won 8 AI medals there. How many games was he almost invisible in? Quite a few, as probably reflected in his one All-Star award. That doesn't mean that he was bad in these games, or probably in any game he ever played for Kerry. He'd a role to play, and played it excellently, to the detriment of his own game. He'd to open up space for the Sheehy, Spillane, Power, etc. Hanahoe did a similar thing for the Dubs.

Fenton is more on the ball player than Ogie Moran was, but when he is not, he's still causing 2-3 opponents a headache as regard where they should be and what they should be doing.

I'd still say Jacko would ate Fenton alive!"
I think it all depends on how teams play and set up and what you say is very true. Ogie was before my time but I'd admit that my father would've spoke highly of him, and he was hard pleased. As you say Ogie did a job for the team and did it well. 11's in the mould of Trevor Giles, Declan O'Sullivan and Brian McGuigan were more based around dictating and quarterbacking a game for their teams. They weren't required to be another presence in midfield too.

I think the games have changed markedly and i saw someone mention that Fenton doesn't high field and make big catches etc as a yardstick to compare him to Jacko. Honestly who does in the modern possession based game. Who are all these great high fielders of a ball cos i can't think of any. The days of keepers lumping it down the middle and a big man winning possession are long gone. They went out with the gang tackle around midfield and when players realised they gave away frees coming down from the clouds to get a ball.

Fenton does a job and does it extremely well for the Dubs. He attracts a double marker almost every game. As someone said he's a rolls royce of a player and I'd take him on any team. I think he's as important to the Dublin team as anyone and would be sorely missed if he was to be missing. I'd say he's one player the Dubs don't have a suitable replacement for. Every other player could be replaced from within but i don't know have they a player to replace Fenton.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 10/02/2021 16:21:14    2330936

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Replying To Kerry15:  "It'll be very unpopular but I think Fenton is very overrated. Yes he's one of many fantastic players Dublin have but right know I'd have Kilkenny and O'Callaghan ahead of him and in more of an all time context I'd have McCarthy and Kilkenny well ahead of him. For me he is the best midfielder around at the moment (very little competition) but I'd have him just outside the top 5 footballers in the country currently.

He's a very well rounded footballer but for me he shouldn't be in this kind of a discussion, yet at least. The main reason I'd have is that when the heat turns on and the big players need to step up he is nowhere to be seen. At the moment it's Kilkenny or O'Callaghan who produce when really really needed. Similarly his performances in All Ireland semis and finals are never as good as what you'd see in some league games or in Leinster. I wouldn't see him as a big game player at all, the looser it is the better he looks. Also his attacking output is seen as one of his biggest strengths yet whenever a suitable marker is put on him he has no impact. If he was a forward and went missing every time a good man marker was put on him he wouldn't be rated at all so why is it different for a midfielder. A final reason is I've never seen him dominate the skies in a game. He can make some spectacular catches but they're not very frequent. I accept Dublin's and their opposition's kickout strategies are a big reason for this but it's still another factor for me.

I'm not disputing he's a great player, I'm just disputing some of the hyperbolic commentary around him like being in an all time team and head and shoulders the best player in the country. Most will strongly disagree but is there anyone who agrees?"
What a load of rubbish, Fenton, not a big game player? You have no credibility after a statement like that.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 685 - 10/02/2021 21:21:49    2330965

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Replying To sligo joe:  "What a load of rubbish, Fenton, not a big game player? You have no credibility after a statement like that."
Not in recent years anyway. I thought he was quiet at best anonymous at worst in the 2 finals in 2019 and this year's final.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 958 - 10/02/2021 22:53:44    2330977

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Replying To Kerry15:  "Not in recent years anyway. I thought he was quiet at best anonymous at worst in the 2 finals in 2019 and this year's final."
Yes very quiet in drawn game 2019, was doubtful going into that game with illness, big game in the replay, playing deeper than usual, though his performance was probably eclipsed by the Kerry midfielder, Moran's assist for Murchan's goal.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 685 - 12/02/2021 14:51:46    2331201

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Yes very quiet in drawn game 2019, was doubtful going into that game with illness, big game in the replay, playing deeper than usual, though his performance was probably eclipsed by the Kerry midfielder, Moran's assist for Murchan's goal."
Thought he was extremely quiet in the replay as well. If that performance is considered big then standards are very low. Moran has nothing to do with this conversation but he did have an awful game that day. Not only the Murchan goal but also kicking 3 wides.

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 958 - 13/02/2021 16:44:02    2331283

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Replying To Kerry15:  "Thought he was extremely quiet in the replay as well. If that performance is considered big then standards are very low. Moran has nothing to do with this conversation but he did have an awful game that day. Not only the Murchan goal but also kicking 3 wides."
RTE.ie player ratings after replay 2019, Fenton, uncharacteristically quiet in drawn game was back to his impressive best ....... Rating 7.5

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 685 - 13/02/2021 19:38:34    2331296

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Replying To sligo joe:  "RTE.ie player ratings after replay 2019, Fenton, uncharacteristically quiet in drawn game was back to his impressive best ....... Rating 7.5"
While I've seen Fenton play better than he did in the replay, I'd still give him a B+ grade for that game. He and McCarthy comfortably dealt with the Kerry mid-field that day. So, to say Fenton was poor or that he didn't perform, is in my opinion, way off the mark.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 13/02/2021 22:03:15    2331306

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Keegan and kilkenny should be included instead of McCarthy and spillane.

Sssthe (Mayo) - Posts: 57 - 14/02/2021 00:24:38    2331317

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Replying To Sssthe:  "Keegan and kilkenny should be included instead of McCarthy and spillane."
Sorry sssthe. What do you mean? Lee Keegan and Kilkenny should ve included in what before? Is it James Mccarthy and which Spillane?

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 14/02/2021 21:59:38    2331392

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Replying To Sssthe:  "Keegan and kilkenny should be included instead of McCarthy and spillane."
I'd put Keegan in before Keith Higgins alright, but not before James McCarthy. And as annoying as I find Spillane both as a pundit and a person, I have to look objectively when rating footballers. After Jack O'Shea, Pat Spillane is the most nailed on certainty for his position on that team.

I'll let you in on a small little secret, this is an All-Stars team over the last 50 years. Only one player has won 9 All-Stars in football in that timeframe. That one player is Pat Spillane. I think the next highest number is 6 (I might be wrong), which Jacko and perhaps, Peter Canavan hold.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 14/02/2021 22:22:04    2331397

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "I'd put Keegan in before Keith Higgins alright, but not before James McCarthy. And as annoying as I find Spillane both as a pundit and a person, I have to look objectively when rating footballers. After Jack O'Shea, Pat Spillane is the most nailed on certainty for his position on that team.

I'll let you in on a small little secret, this is an All-Stars team over the last 50 years. Only one player has won 9 All-Stars in football in that timeframe. That one player is Pat Spillane. I think the next highest number is 6 (I might be wrong), which Jacko and perhaps, Peter Canavan hold."
Sorry, I forgot Colm Cooper. He has 7 or 8, I think.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 15/02/2021 03:01:29    2331403

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "I'd put Keegan in before Keith Higgins alright, but not before James McCarthy. And as annoying as I find Spillane both as a pundit and a person, I have to look objectively when rating footballers. After Jack O'Shea, Pat Spillane is the most nailed on certainty for his position on that team.

I'll let you in on a small little secret, this is an All-Stars team over the last 50 years. Only one player has won 9 All-Stars in football in that timeframe. That one player is Pat Spillane. I think the next highest number is 6 (I might be wrong), which Jacko and perhaps, Peter Canavan hold."
Pat Spillane has 9 All Stars. Colin Cooper has 8. Mikey Sheehy has 7. Jack O Shea, Ger Power, Stephen Cluxton and Peter Canavan all have 6. Great footballers all.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 15/02/2021 03:23:03    2331404

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Replying To Sssthe:  "Keegan and kilkenny should be included instead of McCarthy and spillane."
what did lee keegan win compared to pat spillane

mickcunningham (Westmeath) - Posts: 1806 - 15/02/2021 10:09:15    2331414

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Replying To Sssthe:  "Keegan and kilkenny should be included instead of McCarthy and spillane."
I don't know if you remember Pat Spillane playing but Pat would probably be the first name on the list. A man that could run all day defend and score long range points at his ease. In the all time top scoring list he is the only one in it that did nt take frees and he was a half forward. Spillane also missed 3 of his prime years due to a serious knee injury but came back to win motm awards in the 84 and 86 all irela D finals again. Even though he missed 3 years he still won 9 all stars. Spillane a certainty. On Lee Keegan yes a very good player but give me James Mccarthy everyday of the week.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 15/02/2021 12:00:23    2331434

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "I don't know if you remember Pat Spillane playing but Pat would probably be the first name on the list. A man that could run all day defend and score long range points at his ease. In the all time top scoring list he is the only one in it that did nt take frees and he was a half forward. Spillane also missed 3 of his prime years due to a serious knee injury but came back to win motm awards in the 84 and 86 all irela D finals again. Even though he missed 3 years he still won 9 all stars. Spillane a certainty. On Lee Keegan yes a very good player but give me James Mccarthy everyday of the week."
I'd agree with you Mick. I've seen every All Ireland final that every player on those lists hurling and football ever played in. Pat Spillane was a magnificent player. You've outlined a lot of his strengths in your post. He is an absolute certainty for that team. There are others most especially Matt Connor who deserve their place on the football team. A case could be made for every player named. Personally I would have reservations about Larry Tompkins. Others who didn't make it are the likes of Páidí Ó Sé, Maurice Fitzgerald, Pádraic Joyce, Stephen O Brien, Ciarán Kilkenny, Anton O Toole and most especially Kieran McGeeney. McGeeney is the best centre back I have ever seen. He is also the greatest on field leader I have ever seen. However that is the purpose of these teams Mick. In very difficult times they stimulate debate. Debate is all about opinions. There can be no doubt however but that Pat Spillane is a nailed on certainty for that team.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 15/02/2021 12:48:56    2331435

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "I'd put Keegan in before Keith Higgins alright, but not before James McCarthy. And as annoying as I find Spillane both as a pundit and a person, I have to look objectively when rating footballers. After Jack O'Shea, Pat Spillane is the most nailed on certainty for his position on that team.

I'll let you in on a small little secret, this is an All-Stars team over the last 50 years. Only one player has won 9 All-Stars in football in that timeframe. That one player is Pat Spillane. I think the next highest number is 6 (I might be wrong), which Jacko and perhaps, Peter Canavan hold."
Keegan was a better overall player than mcarthy in every aspect of the game but all ireland titles. He has more all stars, scored more points, has a player of the year award, and was a better defender who prevented the best forwards in the game from ever scoring more than 1 or 2 points when he was at his best.

The finals meanwhile cannot be blamed on keegan who up to this year had always outscored whoever he was marking from play in the final.

If you swap them round and put mcarthy on mayo and keegan on Dublin. Then mayo wouldn't of made the finals in 2016 or 2017 and Dublin would still have 8 titles in 10 years.


Kilkenny by the time he retires will probably have 6 or 7 all stars. He has being arguably the most influential player on the greatest team in history. I'm not saying that spillane isnt one of the greatest forwards ever. I'm saying that kilkenny is simply a better forward. Though looking at it again larry Tompkins probably deserves it less than either of them.

Sssthe (Mayo) - Posts: 57 - 15/02/2021 12:52:08    2331436

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