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Supreme All Stars

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Replying To Llaw_Gyffes:  "I think you are doing Cillian a disservice in saying that he scored heavily in games against London, Leitrim and New York. In his championship career so far Cillian has scored a total of 30 goals and 339 points. 6 goals and 24 points of that were against those three teams which hardly distorts his scoring average. Apart from being the highest championship scorer of all time Cillian has also scored the most championship goals of all time, one more than the great Mikey Sheehy. He also has the highest average championship score of any player, ahead of Matt Connor and also the highest individual score in a championship game. To give the lie to the consensus that Cillian scores heavily against weaker teams, his average per game over his career is 7.3 points whereas his average against, arguably the greatest team of all time, Dublin is 8 points per game. I'm not pitting Cillian against Gooch, who are totally different type players, just putting the record straight regarding Cillians phenomenal scoring record."
Oh I admire Cillian Liaw. I was just making a point to a poster that he d prefer him to Gooch cos Gooch is nt the all time top scorer. That's a silly statement. Also that poster was saying Gooch was playing against weak teams so I pointed out about New York and London. Gooch has scored 4.-33 in all Irelands alone. I did nt mean disrespect to Cillian who I admire and a brilliant score nó doubt. For me I would have many forwards ahead of him like Maurice Fitz Diarmuid Connolly and your own Ciarán McDonald but that's just my opinion and I might be wrong. I love war hing Cillian play and yes a true great player.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 02/02/2021 12:16:30    2330095

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Picking a team of 15 'supreme' players, in football or hurling, from the last 50 years is always going to be a difficult and subjective task. What usually catches peoples attention is not so much the players picked, but the ones left out. I think you could pick a second team, from the players omitted, in both codes, that would be just as good.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2478 - 02/02/2021 12:19:00    2330096

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Let's not forget the bould Gooch got a nice fat testimonial too.
I doubt Cillian will get one of those.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 02/02/2021 12:38:04    2330102

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Picking a team of 15 'supreme' players, in football or hurling, from the last 50 years is always going to be a difficult and subjective task. What usually catches peoples attention is not so much the players picked, but the ones left out. I think you could pick a second team, from the players omitted, in both codes, that would be just as good."
For sure Cockney. Also alot of us are biased towards our own as we ve seen them play more with their county and club. Also we tend to remember things done in big matches more so than the lesser games. However you are so right in what you say. If we picked a second team it would be just as good

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 02/02/2021 12:39:32    2330103

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "For sure Cockney. Also alot of us are biased towards our own as we ve seen them play more with their county and club. Also we tend to remember things done in big matches more so than the lesser games. However you are so right in what you say. If we picked a second team it would be just as good"
Exactly. Also when it comes to teams like this, people can list 20 players that should be on the teams as well, but rarely name who they should replace. There's maybe half the team at most, that the vast majority would agree on. The rest are all up for debate.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2046 - 02/02/2021 13:01:31    2330106

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Replying To catch22:  "Let's not forget the bould Gooch got a nice fat testimonial too.
I doubt Cillian will get one of those."
Nor would he have the stones to do it either. Still ye can't blame the Gooch for milking it while he could.

lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 02/02/2021 13:01:49    2330107

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Replying To catch22:  "Let's not forget the bould Gooch got a nice fat testimonial too.
I doubt Cillian will get one of those."
Sure why don't you arrange one for him?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 02/02/2021 13:17:08    2330108

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Cluxton is an interesting one. In my opinion in the traditional role of goal keeper (saving shots, strong under a high ball) Cluxton is average. But his accurate kickouts to team mates changed the game hugely and became crucial to a teams chances of winning games. As other teams adapted to employing kick out strategies Cluxton remained the best at accurate kickouts and was adaptable, if a team pushed up on the kickouts he could go long and punish them.
But pre the kicking tee no goal keeper could have tried to do what Cluxton did with kickouts.
That's why I find it nearly impossible to compare Cluxton to top goal keepers of the olden days."
The role of goalkeeper has changed from the 1970s to 1990s. Nowadays a goalkeeper's kick out is part of a team's tactics, the launchpad for attacks. In times past the full back usually kicked out the ball, to midfield, where the midfielders contested the ball, looking to start an attack. The keeper's primary role was to prevent scores. This is the primary function of the No 1 position, at all times

Goalkeepers are free takers today, rarely happened in former times, when teams had specialised place kickers. Different eras require a different skill set for the goalies, while retaining their primary shot stopping role. Stephen Cluxton is a very good player of the modern game, but there were other excellent goalkeepers down the years, as there are today.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 421 - 02/02/2021 18:25:55    2330154

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Replying To oneoff:  "The point about the kicking tee is the main one. As Shane Curran is the one who came up with it is he not the one who changed the role of a keeper?

There would be no short kick outs etc had there never been a tee."
Was it Shane Curran ?, I thought the GAAs justification for bringing the kicking tee in for kickouts was because it was suspossed to save people damaging their ankles over time from repeatedly kicking the ball out ?

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 02/02/2021 22:08:11    2330186

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "1.S.Cluxton (Dub) 2.R. Ó Malley (Meath). 3.J.O Keefe (Kerry) 5.T.O Se(Kerry). 6.J.McCarthy (Dub) 7.S.Moynihan (Kerry). 8.J.O Shea(Kerry). 9.B.Fenton (Dub). 10.M.Connor (Offaly). 11.L.Tompkins (Cork). 12.P.Spillane(Kerry).13.M.Sheehy (Kerry). 14.P.Canavan (Tyrone). 15.C.Cooper (Kerry"
Who was right corner back (no. 4)?

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 02/02/2021 22:09:23    2330187

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Was it Shane Curran ?, I thought the GAAs justification for bringing the kicking tee in for kickouts was because it was suspossed to save people damaging their ankles over time from repeatedly kicking the ball out ?"
He came up with the original design for them

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 03/02/2021 11:04:39    2330199

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Who was right corner back (no. 4)?"
Keith Higgins

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5016 - 03/02/2021 12:13:34    2330205

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "1.S.Cluxton (Dub) 2.R. Ó Malley (Meath). 3.J.O Keefe (Kerry) 5.T.O Se(Kerry). 6.J.McCarthy (Dub) 7.S.Moynihan (Kerry). 8.J.O Shea(Kerry). 9.B.Fenton (Dub). 10.M.Connor (Offaly). 11.L.Tompkins (Cork). 12.P.Spillane(Kerry).13.M.Sheehy (Kerry). 14.P.Canavan (Tyrone). 15.C.Cooper (Kerry"
Couldn't argue too much with this team, being honest you could probably pick another team with maybe only 2 of the 15 names (Jack O'Shea, best footballer of all time for me and Peter Canavan) and it would be equally valid for me, so many good names left out but nearly an impossible task. From Meath point of view I could have picked a fair few that I think would be in the running (especially Colm O'Rourke) but I'm sure loads of counties would say the same. I would have had Brian Mullins there instead of Fenton.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 03/02/2021 14:44:05    2330215

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Couldn't argue too much with this team, being honest you could probably pick another team with maybe only 2 of the 15 names (Jack O'Shea, best footballer of all time for me and Peter Canavan) and it would be equally valid for me, so many good names left out but nearly an impossible task. From Meath point of view I could have picked a fair few that I think would be in the running (especially Colm O'Rourke) but I'm sure loads of counties would say the same. I would have had Brian Mullins there instead of Fenton."
Growing up Brian Mullins was my idol, when he was on form Dublin won but he's not in the same league as Brian Fenton but then again who is?

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 932 - 07/02/2021 11:41:39    2330509

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Couldn't argue too much with this team, being honest you could probably pick another team with maybe only 2 of the 15 names (Jack O'Shea, best footballer of all time for me and Peter Canavan) and it would be equally valid for me, so many good names left out but nearly an impossible task. From Meath point of view I could have picked a fair few that I think would be in the running (especially Colm O'Rourke) but I'm sure loads of counties would say the same. I would have had Brian Mullins there instead of Fenton."
Growing up Brian Mullins was my idol, when he was on form Dublin won but he's not in the same league as Brian Fenton but then again who is?

DUBJOHN (Dublin) - Posts: 932 - 07/02/2021 11:42:06    2330510

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Replying To DUBJOHN:  "Growing up Brian Mullins was my idol, when he was on form Dublin won but he's not in the same league as Brian Fenton but then again who is?"
I would agree John. Up to a few years ago I would say the best two midfielders I have seen were Jacko and Mullins but now I would have Fenton ahead of Mullins. Jacko was special. I think we forget sometimes how could he was. He had some engine and was a big scorer too. Fenton has a big engine too and a good scorer also.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 07/02/2021 13:56:00    2330519

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "I would agree John. Up to a few years ago I would say the best two midfielders I have seen were Jacko and Mullins but now I would have Fenton ahead of Mullins. Jacko was special. I think we forget sometimes how could he was. He had some engine and was a big scorer too. Fenton has a big engine too and a good scorer also."
Agreed. Jacko was the best player that I've seen play the game. And while I would rate Fenton as a better player than Mullins, I much preferred Mullins' style of play. Mullins was far better to watch than Fenton. While Fenton is a Rolls-Royce of a player, he would not have (prob doesn't need) the same type of aggression that Mullins had. Mullins was really tough. That he came back from such a serious injury (broken pelvis, I think) to win another AI in 1983 illustrates that toughness.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 07/02/2021 18:12:46    2330547

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "Agreed. Jacko was the best player that I've seen play the game. And while I would rate Fenton as a better player than Mullins, I much preferred Mullins' style of play. Mullins was far better to watch than Fenton. While Fenton is a Rolls-Royce of a player, he would not have (prob doesn't need) the same type of aggression that Mullins had. Mullins was really tough. That he came back from such a serious injury (broken pelvis, I think) to win another AI in 1983 illustrates that toughness."
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Fenton does nt need to play tough and yes what Mullins did after the car crash was unbelievable. I think he ended up having one leg a little shorter but played in 3 more all ireland finals afterwards. On a Kerry note Fenton Dad is a Kerryman and Mullins Mom a Kerry woman. Mullins s uncle Bill Casey won a few all irelands with Kerry.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3678 - 07/02/2021 19:08:55    2330551

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Replying To CiarraiMick:  "I think you hit the nail on the head there. Fenton does nt need to play tough and yes what Mullins did after the car crash was unbelievable. I think he ended up having one leg a little shorter but played in 3 more all ireland finals afterwards. On a Kerry note Fenton Dad is a Kerryman and Mullins Mom a Kerry woman. Mullins s uncle Bill Casey won a few all irelands with Kerry."
Bill Casey, yeah, he won 4 with Kerry: 39-41 and again in 1946. All at center-back. He was supposedly a powerfully strong man.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 1926 - 08/02/2021 11:42:57    2330623

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It'll be very unpopular but I think Fenton is very overrated. Yes he's one of many fantastic players Dublin have but right know I'd have Kilkenny and O'Callaghan ahead of him and in more of an all time context I'd have McCarthy and Kilkenny well ahead of him. For me he is the best midfielder around at the moment (very little competition) but I'd have him just outside the top 5 footballers in the country currently.

He's a very well rounded footballer but for me he shouldn't be in this kind of a discussion, yet at least. The main reason I'd have is that when the heat turns on and the big players need to step up he is nowhere to be seen. At the moment it's Kilkenny or O'Callaghan who produce when really really needed. Similarly his performances in All Ireland semis and finals are never as good as what you'd see in some league games or in Leinster. I wouldn't see him as a big game player at all, the looser it is the better he looks. Also his attacking output is seen as one of his biggest strengths yet whenever a suitable marker is put on him he has no impact. If he was a forward and went missing every time a good man marker was put on him he wouldn't be rated at all so why is it different for a midfielder. A final reason is I've never seen him dominate the skies in a game. He can make some spectacular catches but they're not very frequent. I accept Dublin's and their opposition's kickout strategies are a big reason for this but it's still another factor for me.

I'm not disputing he's a great player, I'm just disputing some of the hyperbolic commentary around him like being in an all time team and head and shoulders the best player in the country. Most will strongly disagree but is there anyone who agrees?

Kerry15 (Kerry) - Posts: 958 - 08/02/2021 13:53:27    2330638

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