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Penalise Hurling's Sliotar Throw !

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https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/the-rucks-and-mauls-are-endemic-now-why-liam-griffin-feels-hurling-is-heading-in-the-wrong-direction-40033739.html

Liam Griffin no longer thinks Hurling is the Riverdance of sport. Called me old fashioned but I agree with most if not all he has to say. The 'let if flow' at all costs is having negative effects on the game.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 31/01/2021 21:32:58    2329915

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Replying To ZUL10:  "https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/the-rucks-and-mauls-are-endemic-now-why-liam-griffin-feels-hurling-is-heading-in-the-wrong-direction-40033739.html

Liam Griffin no longer thinks Hurling is the Riverdance of sport. Called me old fashioned but I agree with most if not all he has to say. The 'let if flow' at all costs is having negative effects on the game."
I read Liam's article yesterday and I thought it was a little naive at best From memory the three proposals he had were;
One- Introduce a penalty and a sin Bin for any cynical foul that prevents a clear goal chance. Firstly, I think this particular foul is very seldom seen in hurling. I think forwards will quickly learn how to take advantage of this and start playing for cynical fouls. It will be a case of placing a giant at the edge of the square and let the full back foul him/her all day. Won't be pretty viewing. Management teams are so smart that they will find other ways around it.

Point two was that a third player can't go into a tackle so a ruck won't be formed. Can really see this working. What if two players arrive at the tackle at the same?

Third point was rigid penalising of the "spare arm tackle" - in my opinion this will have a devastating stop/start effect on the game.

He also compared fouling on a hurling pitch to someone cheating on a golf course by moving their ball in the rough. I'm surprised that Liam (whom I have huge respect for) said this. Contact sports are full of cynical fouling. Who has played the game, or indeed any contact sport, without committing a cynical foul. The reality is both teams would be down to 10 players in minutes if all cynicism was spotted.

I think Liam, like many others have to accept the game has changed - or has it? His own Wexford of the 90's era were well able to dish out the cynical foul or two!!!
A certain Patrickswell man could tell a story or two there!

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 02/02/2021 00:25:43    2330067

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "I read Liam's article yesterday and I thought it was a little naive at best From memory the three proposals he had were;
One- Introduce a penalty and a sin Bin for any cynical foul that prevents a clear goal chance. Firstly, I think this particular foul is very seldom seen in hurling. I think forwards will quickly learn how to take advantage of this and start playing for cynical fouls. It will be a case of placing a giant at the edge of the square and let the full back foul him/her all day. Won't be pretty viewing. Management teams are so smart that they will find other ways around it.

Point two was that a third player can't go into a tackle so a ruck won't be formed. Can really see this working. What if two players arrive at the tackle at the same?

Third point was rigid penalising of the "spare arm tackle" - in my opinion this will have a devastating stop/start effect on the game.

He also compared fouling on a hurling pitch to someone cheating on a golf course by moving their ball in the rough. I'm surprised that Liam (whom I have huge respect for) said this. Contact sports are full of cynical fouling. Who has played the game, or indeed any contact sport, without committing a cynical foul. The reality is both teams would be down to 10 players in minutes if all cynicism was spotted.

I think Liam, like many others have to accept the game has changed - or has it? His own Wexford of the 90's era were well able to dish out the cynical foul or two!!!
A certain Patrickswell man could tell a story or two there!"
Liam's contribution to the current debate about the state of hurling is to be welcomed.
All his points are valid and make a lot of sense.

One big talking point is the cynical foul. Let's be clear, this has always been there but has really surfaced in the last 5 or so years. There is no doubt in my mind that when a defence move breaks down and a ball is won by the attacking team and there is even a hint of a goal, a foul is invariably committed. This is happening wholesale and we need to face up to that. The solution as has been discussed many times is a black card AND a penalty.

We need to ensure that it does not pay to foul cynically in such circumstances.

The rucks are a blight in the game in my opinion and what would be wrong with just having 2 players battle for the ball...a good idea I think...it definitely would add spice to the games with 2 players only in a ruck, speed up the play and stop referees from throwing in the ball so much. It might also mean that players might actually mark their players as opposed to marking space which I think would add to the game more. And I think players would enjoy that battle and respond to such a cha ge very quickly.

The 'free hand' and how it is used is a massive problem and also needs attention in my view.
Just watch ANY game over the past few years, players use it to PREVENT their opponents from getting their ball carrying hand free to play the ball. That to me is a foul and needs to be penalised, as opposed to the current situation where referees often penalise the player for over holding the sliotar.
The 'free hand' and its use has developed over the last 6 to 8 years and due to it being very effective, other counties have followed suit, and it has become the accepted norm.

Now we have commentators commenting on its effectiveness. Just because something has been added as a new tactic and it is effective should not make it necessarily acceptable as part of the game.

That is how the game has developed and adapted but I believe it's time to actually rule on such scenarios to ensure the game is protected for the future.
Why not have ALL players behind the 45 for the start of each half... again in an effort to prevent rucks...I believe leaving 4 midfielders to contest the ball would be of benefit and stop these linesmen coming in half ways across the pitch. Their intervention has made absolutely no difference and it looks like a desperate measure to stop something that could more easily be prevented.

I agree that the game has changed and many changes made are excellent but it can be improved also. Too many - especially managers have not wanted change due to vested interest and that needs to be challenged. Too often in the GAA commentary has been shut down when respected and often long serving managers have spoken and a potential excellent debate is summarily ended.
So, I think it's a healthy thing that Liam Griffin has put his views out there . I think if other influential and highly respected ex managers added to the debate, we could see positive changes coming in sooner rather than later and have a BETTER game for players and fans to look forward to.
Forgive the rant but this covid staying at home gives me too much time ...

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1819 - 02/02/2021 12:25:30    2330099

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Good to see a Limerick player acknowledge that cynical play is a factor as well as Ned Quinn from Kilkenny also pushing for something to be done on cynical fouling .
Amazing how people change their mindset in a few short years.... plenty not willing to acknowledge and rubbish the need for action a few years ago !
The GAA is a reactive organisation.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1819 - 03/02/2021 12:50:23    2330208

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Is it not the case that most fouls on opponents are cynical? It's just that some look more obvious than others. The cynical foul was always there, especially when a forward was through for a certain goal. Teams are definitely coached to stop a goal at any cost those days, in particular if a certain goal is on. Would a penalty stop this? Maybe? I just think there will be a knock on effect that could be a bigger problem. So I don't particularly think the "cynicism" in front of goal is that big a problem that merits a rule change.
Fouling in general is a problem. Then we blame the referees if they blow it up too much? A classic eg was Limerick & Cork in the NHL in PUC in 2020 and there was the same problem in a wexford game the same day. The refs blew for everything that day and there was uproar by the media. And rightly so in my opinion. By the letter of the law they were right but the games were destroyed.
I don't hear too many Limerick people complaining about the rules at the moment. If Clare/Wexford/Tipp/Cork etc were on top at the moment I would bet my bottom dollar that they wouldn't think there was a problem with the game?

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 06/02/2021 16:41:41    2330448

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Is it not the case that most fouls on opponents are cynical? It's just that some look more obvious than others. The cynical foul was always there, especially when a forward was through for a certain goal. Teams are definitely coached to stop a goal at any cost those days, in particular if a certain goal is on. Would a penalty stop this? Maybe? I just think there will be a knock on effect that could be a bigger problem. So I don't particularly think the "cynicism" in front of goal is that big a problem that merits a rule change.
Fouling in general is a problem. Then we blame the referees if they blow it up too much? A classic eg was Limerick & Cork in the NHL in PUC in 2020 and there was the same problem in a wexford game the same day. The refs blew for everything that day and there was uproar by the media. And rightly so in my opinion. By the letter of the law they were right but the games were destroyed.
I don't hear too many Limerick people complaining about the rules at the moment. If Clare/Wexford/Tipp/Cork etc were on top at the moment I would bet my bottom dollar that they wouldn't think there was a problem with the game?"
Just because somethings always been happening doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.
Besides I've watched hurling for 22 years and I don't think it was anywhere near as bad as when I first started following it. Maybe I'm looking back with Rose tinted glasses.
I've no idea about stats or anything but I feel like hurling is a far more regimented, physical game now than the eccentric crazy sport I fell in love with long ago. Not as much goals, too many rucks etc.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1696 - 06/02/2021 17:16:21    2330455

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What I meant was it wasn't as bad when I first started following it.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1696 - 06/02/2021 17:41:31    2330457

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Just because somethings always been happening doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.
Besides I've watched hurling for 22 years and I don't think it was anywhere near as bad as when I first started following it. Maybe I'm looking back with Rose tinted glasses.
I've no idea about stats or anything but I feel like hurling is a far more regimented, physical game now than the eccentric crazy sport I fell in love with long ago. Not as much goals, too many rucks etc."
It's still a fantastic game with breathtaking skills.

Don't kid yourself.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 06/02/2021 17:49:34    2330459

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "It's still a fantastic game with breathtaking skills.

Don't kid yourself."
Definitely.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1696 - 06/02/2021 18:59:07    2330462

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "It's still a fantastic game with breathtaking skills.

Don't kid yourself."
Totally agree. In fact the skill level is gone to such a high standard, scoring is fast and furious. Some of the scores this year from Tony Kelly to Aaron Gillane were just breathtaking!!
Some posters don't like this???

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 06/02/2021 20:59:40    2330473

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Replying To carlowman:  "Liam's contribution to the current debate about the state of hurling is to be welcomed.
All his points are valid and make a lot of sense.

One big talking point is the cynical foul. Let's be clear, this has always been there but has really surfaced in the last 5 or so years. There is no doubt in my mind that when a defence move breaks down and a ball is won by the attacking team and there is even a hint of a goal, a foul is invariably committed. This is happening wholesale and we need to face up to that. The solution as has been discussed many times is a black card AND a penalty.

We need to ensure that it does not pay to foul cynically in such circumstances.

The rucks are a blight in the game in my opinion and what would be wrong with just having 2 players battle for the ball...a good idea I think...it definitely would add spice to the games with 2 players only in a ruck, speed up the play and stop referees from throwing in the ball so much. It might also mean that players might actually mark their players as opposed to marking space which I think would add to the game more. And I think players would enjoy that battle and respond to such a cha ge very quickly.

The 'free hand' and how it is used is a massive problem and also needs attention in my view.
Just watch ANY game over the past few years, players use it to PREVENT their opponents from getting their ball carrying hand free to play the ball. That to me is a foul and needs to be penalised, as opposed to the current situation where referees often penalise the player for over holding the sliotar.
The 'free hand' and its use has developed over the last 6 to 8 years and due to it being very effective, other counties have followed suit, and it has become the accepted norm.

Now we have commentators commenting on its effectiveness. Just because something has been added as a new tactic and it is effective should not make it necessarily acceptable as part of the game.

That is how the game has developed and adapted but I believe it's time to actually rule on such scenarios to ensure the game is protected for the future.
Why not have ALL players behind the 45 for the start of each half... again in an effort to prevent rucks...I believe leaving 4 midfielders to contest the ball would be of benefit and stop these linesmen coming in half ways across the pitch. Their intervention has made absolutely no difference and it looks like a desperate measure to stop something that could more easily be prevented.

I agree that the game has changed and many changes made are excellent but it can be improved also. Too many - especially managers have not wanted change due to vested interest and that needs to be challenged. Too often in the GAA commentary has been shut down when respected and often long serving managers have spoken and a potential excellent debate is summarily ended.
So, I think it's a healthy thing that Liam Griffin has put his views out there . I think if other influential and highly respected ex managers added to the debate, we could see positive changes coming in sooner rather than later and have a BETTER game for players and fans to look forward to.
Forgive the rant but this covid staying at home gives me too much time ..."
Cynical Fouling only REALLY emerged in the past five years. Would you ever just check the 2007 AIF on utube and tell me that KK were not cynical that day. Take a look at both Seamus Hickey and Stephen getting the butt of a hurley in the face for a start or the foul on Mick Fitz before half. Note also how the KK half back line repeatedly fouled to stop fast ball going to LKs full forward line. I am not saying for a minute that Limerick were angels on the day, but it proves that cynicism was alive and well in hurling long before 2015. Of course it was not cynical, because it was done by one one of the major powers, back then it was 'celebrated' as 'playing on the edge'. All fine and dandy when one of the sides with over twenty All Irelands were at it.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 06/02/2021 22:31:33    2330480

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Totally agree. In fact the skill level is gone to such a high standard, scoring is fast and furious. Some of the scores this year from Tony Kelly to Aaron Gillane were just breathtaking!!
Some posters don't like this???"
Sliotars are been thrown illegally on hurling pitches the length and breath of the country. Nothing to do with Limerick and was a problem long before they started to dominate. Telling us that Messi is breathtaking at soccer didnt stop VAR being introduced. We can continue wallowing in the positives of hurling and ignore the negatives.
But, If Limerick are beaten by a last minute throw or a cynical pull down in the square you might have a different view then.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 06/02/2021 23:36:57    2330486

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Totally agree. In fact the skill level is gone to such a high standard, scoring is fast and furious. Some of the scores this year from Tony Kelly to Aaron Gillane were just breathtaking!!
Some posters don't like this???"
The game is played at an unbelievable level but I wouldn't say scoring is fast and furious,, in fact I'd say that very little about the modern game is fast and furious.
Things are managed very well, strategically, avd the game is played to systems designed to help teams control the match, game management I guess you'd call it.
It's very modern and sophisticated but I still sometimes long for the day when the ball was thrown in among 30 lads (half of whom were hungover), they went hell for leather for 70 minutes and sure look it, whoever scored most won.
That's not to say that still doesn't happen though. The tipp wexford semi of 2019 was as good a game as I ever saw.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1696 - 06/02/2021 23:48:50    2330487

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Replying To Galway9801:  "The game is played at an unbelievable level but I wouldn't say scoring is fast and furious,, in fact I'd say that very little about the modern game is fast and furious.
Things are managed very well, strategically, avd the game is played to systems designed to help teams control the match, game management I guess you'd call it.
It's very modern and sophisticated but I still sometimes long for the day when the ball was thrown in among 30 lads (half of whom were hungover), they went hell for leather for 70 minutes and sure look it, whoever scored most won.
That's not to say that still doesn't happen though. The tipp wexford semi of 2019 was as good a game as I ever saw."
What was good about ot. A highly motivated team with the advantage of an extra man failed to hold out against what has since proved to be an ageing Tipp team. I am sure Wexford supporters would have far preferred if the game was managed better from the sideline and they had qualified for the final. I, for one, would always prefer to see my team win a poor game that lose a great one.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 07/02/2021 11:43:55    2330511

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Replying To ZUL10:  "Sliotars are been thrown illegally on hurling pitches the length and breath of the country. Nothing to do with Limerick and was a problem long before they started to dominate. Telling us that Messi is breathtaking at soccer didnt stop VAR being introduced. We can continue wallowing in the positives of hurling and ignore the negatives.
But, If Limerick are beaten by a last minute throw or a cynical pull down in the square you might have a different view then."
Limerick were beaten by KK in the 2019. The very last ball on that day should have been a 65 to Limerick. However, the linesman and ref missed it. This massive event was emphasised by Kiely, Darragh O Donovan and Paul Kinerk at that moment. However, it was barely mention since by Limerick. Kiely did say that Limerick shouldn't have had to rely on one event to win the game and he lamented that they lost it in the first 20min and not the last puck of the game.

Bringing VAR into the game will have a huge affect. Although, like everything else, times will move on some form of VAR will be introduced.

So imagine it will be like rugby where the referee asks the TMO to go back 3 or event 4 phases of play that led to a score. Or in soccer where every decision is now sent to VAR for scrutiny?

Maybe a if each manager could request two events per game to sent to the fourth official for TV analysis. I'm not sure what the answer is here but I do hate to see games decided by an incorrect decision.

Bottom line is teams are super skilful, super organised, sports science plays a huge part in today's game and possession is everything. That's not going to go backwards as some posters seem to want. I do believe changes will be introduced, technology will probably be one. The penalty for a goal chance foul probably will be introduced but I can't see it making a huge difference.

Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 07/02/2021 12:48:05    2330515

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "What was good about ot. A highly motivated team with the advantage of an extra man failed to hold out against what has since proved to be an ageing Tipp team. I am sure Wexford supporters would have far preferred if the game was managed better from the sideline and they had qualified for the final. I, for one, would always prefer to see my team win a poor game that lose a great one."
It was very entertaining,, that's what was good about it.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1696 - 07/02/2021 13:07:57    2330516

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Replying To Seeking_silver:  "Limerick were beaten by KK in the 2019. The very last ball on that day should have been a 65 to Limerick. However, the linesman and ref missed it. This massive event was emphasised by Kiely, Darragh O Donovan and Paul Kinerk at that moment. However, it was barely mention since by Limerick. Kiely did say that Limerick shouldn't have had to rely on one event to win the game and he lamented that they lost it in the first 20min and not the last puck of the game.

Bringing VAR into the game will have a huge affect. Although, like everything else, times will move on some form of VAR will be introduced.

So imagine it will be like rugby where the referee asks the TMO to go back 3 or event 4 phases of play that led to a score. Or in soccer where every decision is now sent to VAR for scrutiny?

Maybe a if each manager could request two events per game to sent to the fourth official for TV analysis. I'm not sure what the answer is here but I do hate to see games decided by an incorrect decision.

Bottom line is teams are super skilful, super organised, sports science plays a huge part in today's game and possession is everything. That's not going to go backwards as some posters seem to want. I do believe changes will be introduced, technology will probably be one. The penalty for a goal chance foul probably will be introduced but I can't see it making a huge difference."
You are assuming that the sideline ball was the only missed call that day .Who is to say there may have been a couple of calls that went against Kilkenny that would have put that line ball mute. The reason Limerick are in a good place is because Kiely doesn't give excuses. He was right on the mark, Limerick lost that game in the 1st half when they didn't match Kilkenny's intensity. Limerick learned their lesson and came back last year and walked to the All-Ireland and they can thank Kiely for the attitude he has instilled in the team.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 07/02/2021 14:30:30    2330521

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Cynical Fouling only REALLY emerged in the past five years. Would you ever just check the 2007 AIF on utube and tell me that KK were not cynical that day. Take a look at both Seamus Hickey and Stephen getting the butt of a hurley in the face for a start or the foul on Mick Fitz before half. Note also how the KK half back line repeatedly fouled to stop fast ball going to LKs full forward line. I am not saying for a minute that Limerick were angels on the day, but it proves that cynicism was alive and well in hurling long before 2015. Of course it was not cynical, because it was done by one one of the major powers, back then it was 'celebrated' as 'playing on the edge'. All fine and dandy when one of the sides with over twenty All Irelands were at it."
We have over 30 All-Irelands. 36 to be exact.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 07/02/2021 14:34:05    2330523

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Replying To gatha:  "We have over 30 All-Irelands. 36 to be exact."
That is still over 20. I do know that KK have 36. Elementary, my dear Gatha.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 07/02/2021 16:02:38    2330531

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Replying To Galway9801:  "The game is played at an unbelievable level but I wouldn't say scoring is fast and furious,, in fact I'd say that very little about the modern game is fast and furious.
Things are managed very well, strategically, avd the game is played to systems designed to help teams control the match, game management I guess you'd call it.
It's very modern and sophisticated but I still sometimes long for the day when the ball was thrown in among 30 lads (half of whom were hungover), they went hell for leather for 70 minutes and sure look it, whoever scored most won.
That's not to say that still doesn't happen though. The tipp wexford semi of 2019 was as good a game as I ever saw."
I have to agree with you about the modern game that the level of skill and attention to detail is light years ahead of where it was 15 years ago. Good Intercounty teams now don't give away the ball or even give 50/50 contested balls to a teammate, it's all about giving a pass which your man will be favoured to win. That contested ball is all but gone out of the game now and that's why the game has changed so much and what a lot of people are missing but when I was playing keeping possession and finding a free man was always encouraged but we just didn't have the skill or persistence to keep at it if it broke down and cost you a score. Teams are obviously coached to a level now where they can play this game at a very high level. Look at Graeme Mulcahy and the ball he gets into him is always to his advantage now whereas under previous Limerick management's he was getting killed under high ball with no hope of winning it. Fans might like the pull by the corner back across Graeme hand but I think Graeme is much happier with the ball he is getting now plus it is the intelligent way to play. Is that the problem with modern critic's of the game that the players are now too intelligent.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 812 - 07/02/2021 17:07:07    2330538

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