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Who really cares. If it's close to legal then let it off - if its very obvious then pull it. I think that is pretty much happening now anyway.
The last thing anyone wants is to slow up the game and for the ref to be constantly blowing for that. It would drive everyone mad. Refs don't want to blow for that either.
What possibly should be trialed is a maximum of 1 hand pass and then strike, meaning the hand pass would only be used to get out of trouble.
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 377 - 14/01/2021 16:48:55
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Refs need to penalise players consistenly fouling too. Instead we have players getting end of year awards.
gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 636 - 14/01/2021 19:55:39
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Replying To ZUL10: "Great thread and a topic that needs discussion.
Some of the great handpasses of the past like Dj careys were from the hurl to the hand or the switched hands. They are a joy to watch. However the problem is not with this type of handpass but with the throw type where the ball is thrown up and passed with the same hand. Asking refs to judge distance between the ball and the hand is futile. It wont work. Better getting rid of the one handed pass altogether. TBF the skill required is not much more than a throw anyway. There is too much handpassing now and it time to take action before it looks like another game ruined already by handpassing." So the cleanest way to police/ensure a legal handpass seems to be - to only allow it off the hurl - i.e. hand to hurl to palmed pass - my 2nd option at this thread's beginning.
This restriction would likely lessen the handpass use frequency or shorten their sequences - killing two birds with one stone !
Now for football - what can be done ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 14/01/2021 23:31:25
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Replying To omahant: "So the cleanest way to police/ensure a legal handpass seems to be - to only allow it off the hurl - i.e. hand to hurl to palmed pass - my 2nd option at this thread's beginning.
This restriction would likely lessen the handpass use frequency or shorten their sequences - killing two birds with one stone !
Now for football - what can be done ?" It is not always possible to be able to hand pass off the hurl. It would end up in a load of shemozzles as players would end up just having to drop the ball if they cant get the hand pass away. Teams would put huge focus on bundling up the player so he/she can't get a quick hand pass away which is possible in today's game.
There are a few people on this thread who obviously don't or never have played the game.
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 377 - 15/01/2021 10:29:36
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Replying To omahant: "So the cleanest way to police/ensure a legal handpass seems to be - to only allow it off the hurl - i.e. hand to hurl to palmed pass - my 2nd option at this thread's beginning.
This restriction would likely lessen the handpass use frequency or shorten their sequences - killing two birds with one stone !
Now for football - what can be done ?" It's a good job we have you to sort these problems out for us.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 15/01/2021 11:30:32
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Replying To hopballref: "It is not always possible to be able to hand pass off the hurl. It would end up in a load of shemozzles as players would end up just having to drop the ball if they cant get the hand pass away. Teams would put huge focus on bundling up the player so he/she can't get a quick hand pass away which is possible in today's game.
There are a few people on this thread who obviously don't or never have played the game." Maybe players would think twice about lifting the ball to hand in a ruck if they couldn't easily handpass it away then. The problem with rucks is that once a player gets possession they can easily handpass the ball away. Thats why we have so many of them now. I would argue that less handpassing would mean less rucks and shemozzles and maybe even some ground hurling to get the ball into space.
A simple solution might be that you cant handpass the ball if you received one.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 15/01/2021 11:56:50
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Replying To ZUL10: "Maybe players would think twice about lifting the ball to hand in a ruck if they couldn't easily handpass it away then. The problem with rucks is that once a player gets possession they can easily handpass the ball away. Thats why we have so many of them now. I would argue that less handpassing would mean less rucks and shemozzles and maybe even some ground hurling to get the ball into space.
A simple solution might be that you cant handpass the ball if you received one." Maybe players would also think twice about lifting the ball if you were allowed to pull on it when its there.I've a funny feeling though that todays players and referees would lose their life at the mere thought of it or sound of it
UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 147 - 15/01/2021 21:44:14
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Replying To Suas Sios: "I was never great at the hand pass in the first place but I disagree with some of your suggestions.
The back of the hand? Using the fist? This will reduce the accuracy of the pass and I can't see anyone supporting it.
Pass off the hurl is fine.
Encouraging people to draw the hand further back (e.g. 30cm) before contact to show the ref a clear striking action could be coached maybe.
Could it be that inter county players are so fast and skilled that it looks like a throw even when they have performed the pass legally?" Agree on the last point, I think Limerick, especially players like Lynch are singled out for throwing where as most of the time they are just skilfully doing it very quickly with minimal space between the ball and hand, but enough to be legal. The times they've been pulled for it were times where it made no sense for them to throw it i.e not under physical pressure. Anyone who plays the game knows it's not that hard to handpass and it's almost an unnatural feeling to throw the ball. Why then would a player under no pressure throw the ball 5 yards? The answer is they're not..
blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 1055 - 18/01/2021 02:46:00
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Replying To blackspot91: "Agree on the last point, I think Limerick, especially players like Lynch are singled out for throwing where as most of the time they are just skilfully doing it very quickly with minimal space between the ball and hand, but enough to be legal. The times they've been pulled for it were times where it made no sense for them to throw it i.e not under physical pressure. Anyone who plays the game knows it's not that hard to handpass and it's almost an unnatural feeling to throw the ball. Why then would a player under no pressure throw the ball 5 yards? The answer is they're not.." I played the game for many years but I dont buy this. Your basically saying that they are so good at it we cant tell the difference between a throw and a legal pass. Are you telling me there are no players taking advantage of this? The problem is we cant tell the difference and some players are 100% taking advantage.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 18/01/2021 10:50:47
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Replying To Oldtourman: "Yes indeed. The other day, I looked back at the 1996 Clare/Limerick game in 1996, which was widely regarded as a great game at the time, and the standard looks very poor indeed, with simple points missed from very easy positions on both sides, hopeless deliveries into forwards and no movement from forwards into good receiving positions, among other glaring weaknesses, in comparison to how the game is played today." It's a fair point, I recently watched the Galway v Clare All Ireland semi final from 1995, and the standard was not good at all. Some of the misses on both sides were awful (particularly Galway), aimless driving of the ball up the field to nobody in particular, and it's amazing to see lads actually staying in their positions for the duration of the game. If you were a corner forward back then, you could literally go the entire game without touching the ball.
gilly1910 (Galway) - Posts: 170 - 18/01/2021 11:40:27
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Replying To omahant: "To Oldtourman (I didn't hit Reply as I wanted to avoid regenerating your post) -
I agree with much of what you said, we tend to see the games of yore through rose tinted glasses.
For me, the modern day scoring frequency lessens my enjoyment of the game. Don't get me wrong, I am in awe with the modern day players' skills and fitness, I just don't like the ball being popped over from all angles.
Back on topic, how would you improve policing of the handpass ?
Off topic, maybe it's time to cheapen point scoring by increasing the value of a goal to 5 pts ?" Problem there is it might encourage managers to get even more defensive.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 18/01/2021 13:26:43
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Replying To omahant: "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?
Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -
1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through." I only came back to HS after the winter break recently hence I'm only getting involved in this thread late.
I'm very interested that posters seem to have a problem with the hand pass? Many on saying limit it to two hand passes, then has to be a stick pass plus many more crazy suggestions!
If any of you are lucky enough to have a recording of the Limerick V Waterford All Ireland you should really watch it back with this thread in mind.
1. The hand pass is mainly used to get out of "rucks". If you didn't have it, there would be many more.
2. Most hand pass are actually legal. The skill is gone so quick that the ref cannot see it. D o Cusack has in the past shown many blown hand passes are infact legitimate in slow motion.
3. There is only about 5 instances where either team makes two hand pass in a row - throughout the whole game! I was amazed with this myself.
4. The skill levels are so high nowadays that any more than a lightening fast hand pass will be intercepted by the opposition, thus leading to more "rucks". So your idea of 30cm leads to bigger problems.
5. The players are so strong and skilful nowadays that they can break the tackle and lay off a perfect. The quality of the passing in the game was on another planet!
6. In general, when players were free of an opponent(s) they almost always used a stick pass.
7. Like it or not hurling has changed to a possession game. And the top teams are seriously good at it. If Cian Lynch had scored the brilliant rebounded save from SOK it would have gone down as one of the greatest hurling goals ever scored. The build up to it was just sublime.
I loved the clash of the ash myself but until a team finds an advantage with ground hurling (and I'm sure one will) it will only happen on the rare occasion.
Being from Limerick, I think the game is great at the moment. Would I look for rule changes if we were hovering around the wrong end of top five? I don't think so. We didn't look for rule changes down through the years when we weren't winning.
Maybe this thread is a bit like when Ger Loughnane was complaining that KK were constantly hitting the oppositions hands and he wanted referees to police better. But that was when Kilkenny looked unbeatable?
Seeking_silver (Limerick) - Posts: 411 - 18/01/2021 22:43:55
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Increased defence in hurling should be a losing strategy - as it makes popping over those less valuable points all the easier.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 19/01/2021 04:27:33
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Replying To Seeking_silver: "I only came back to HS after the winter break recently hence I'm only getting involved in this thread late.
I'm very interested that posters seem to have a problem with the hand pass? Many on saying limit it to two hand passes, then has to be a stick pass plus many more crazy suggestions!
If any of you are lucky enough to have a recording of the Limerick V Waterford All Ireland you should really watch it back with this thread in mind.
1. The hand pass is mainly used to get out of "rucks". If you didn't have it, there would be many more.
2. Most hand pass are actually legal. The skill is gone so quick that the ref cannot see it. D o Cusack has in the past shown many blown hand passes are infact legitimate in slow motion.
3. There is only about 5 instances where either team makes two hand pass in a row - throughout the whole game! I was amazed with this myself.
4. The skill levels are so high nowadays that any more than a lightening fast hand pass will be intercepted by the opposition, thus leading to more "rucks". So your idea of 30cm leads to bigger problems.
5. The players are so strong and skilful nowadays that they can break the tackle and lay off a perfect. The quality of the passing in the game was on another planet!
6. In general, when players were free of an opponent(s) they almost always used a stick pass.
7. Like it or not hurling has changed to a possession game. And the top teams are seriously good at it. If Cian Lynch had scored the brilliant rebounded save from SOK it would have gone down as one of the greatest hurling goals ever scored. The build up to it was just sublime.
I loved the clash of the ash myself but until a team finds an advantage with ground hurling (and I'm sure one will) it will only happen on the rare occasion.
Being from Limerick, I think the game is great at the moment. Would I look for rule changes if we were hovering around the wrong end of top five? I don't think so. We didn't look for rule changes down through the years when we weren't winning.
Maybe this thread is a bit like when Ger Loughnane was complaining that KK were constantly hitting the oppositions hands and he wanted referees to police better. But that was when Kilkenny looked unbeatable?" Have to agree. Especially point 4. I noticed both Wexford and Kilkenny persisted with the older fashioned looping exaggerated hand pass last year which resulted in many interceptions and blocked passes. Maybe Davy and Brian focused on this in training as there was supposed to be a clamp down on illegal hand passes last year with a clear striking motion being particularly emphasized but it resulted in many incomplete passes and actually made the games more scrappy with more rucks.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 19/01/2021 10:00:28
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Replying To omahant: "Increased defence in hurling should be a losing strategy - as it makes popping over those less valuable points all the easier." Maybe restrict the number of defensive players within the 45? Problem is with bringing in new rules its adding to the load the ref has already. Maybe it really is time for 2 refs who ref the same half of the pitch both sides of half time to even out the differences between their interpretations?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 19/01/2021 10:04:06
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Replying To Seeking_silver: "I only came back to HS after the winter break recently hence I'm only getting involved in this thread late.
I'm very interested that posters seem to have a problem with the hand pass? Many on saying limit it to two hand passes, then has to be a stick pass plus many more crazy suggestions!
If any of you are lucky enough to have a recording of the Limerick V Waterford All Ireland you should really watch it back with this thread in mind.
1. The hand pass is mainly used to get out of "rucks". If you didn't have it, there would be many more.
2. Most hand pass are actually legal. The skill is gone so quick that the ref cannot see it. D o Cusack has in the past shown many blown hand passes are infact legitimate in slow motion.
3. There is only about 5 instances where either team makes two hand pass in a row - throughout the whole game! I was amazed with this myself.
4. The skill levels are so high nowadays that any more than a lightening fast hand pass will be intercepted by the opposition, thus leading to more "rucks". So your idea of 30cm leads to bigger problems.
5. The players are so strong and skilful nowadays that they can break the tackle and lay off a perfect. The quality of the passing in the game was on another planet!
6. In general, when players were free of an opponent(s) they almost always used a stick pass.
7. Like it or not hurling has changed to a possession game. And the top teams are seriously good at it. If Cian Lynch had scored the brilliant rebounded save from SOK it would have gone down as one of the greatest hurling goals ever scored. The build up to it was just sublime.
I loved the clash of the ash myself but until a team finds an advantage with ground hurling (and I'm sure one will) it will only happen on the rare occasion.
Being from Limerick, I think the game is great at the moment. Would I look for rule changes if we were hovering around the wrong end of top five? I don't think so. We didn't look for rule changes down through the years when we weren't winning.
Maybe this thread is a bit like when Ger Loughnane was complaining that KK were constantly hitting the oppositions hands and he wanted referees to police better. But that was when Kilkenny looked unbeatable?" Would agree will most of that. Limericks' advantage is that they have the skill levels to implement that possession based game plan where many teams simply don't. All it takes is one mistake for it to break down. They make it look easy at times but it's not easy to string four or five short passes together under that much pressure. I can't see the game staying that way forever it just depends on the type of players within he group.
hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 377 - 19/01/2021 16:13:16
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Replying To Seeking_silver: "I only came back to HS after the winter break recently hence I'm only getting involved in this thread late.
I'm very interested that posters seem to have a problem with the hand pass? Many on saying limit it to two hand passes, then has to be a stick pass plus many more crazy suggestions!
If any of you are lucky enough to have a recording of the Limerick V Waterford All Ireland you should really watch it back with this thread in mind.
1. The hand pass is mainly used to get out of "rucks". If you didn't have it, there would be many more.
2. Most hand pass are actually legal. The skill is gone so quick that the ref cannot see it. D o Cusack has in the past shown many blown hand passes are infact legitimate in slow motion.
3. There is only about 5 instances where either team makes two hand pass in a row - throughout the whole game! I was amazed with this myself.
4. The skill levels are so high nowadays that any more than a lightening fast hand pass will be intercepted by the opposition, thus leading to more "rucks". So your idea of 30cm leads to bigger problems.
5. The players are so strong and skilful nowadays that they can break the tackle and lay off a perfect. The quality of the passing in the game was on another planet!
6. In general, when players were free of an opponent(s) they almost always used a stick pass.
7. Like it or not hurling has changed to a possession game. And the top teams are seriously good at it. If Cian Lynch had scored the brilliant rebounded save from SOK it would have gone down as one of the greatest hurling goals ever scored. The build up to it was just sublime.
I loved the clash of the ash myself but until a team finds an advantage with ground hurling (and I'm sure one will) it will only happen on the rare occasion.
Being from Limerick, I think the game is great at the moment. Would I look for rule changes if we were hovering around the wrong end of top five? I don't think so. We didn't look for rule changes down through the years when we weren't winning.
Maybe this thread is a bit like when Ger Loughnane was complaining that KK were constantly hitting the oppositions hands and he wanted referees to police better. But that was when Kilkenny looked unbeatable?" This thread is not having a go at Limerick Hurling at least not by me anyway. They have the ability to do what they want when they want.
Have look at Laois v Clare last year. Laois played 5 and 6 handpasses in a row on a few occasions and 2 to 3 passes frequently. Surely your not promoting this kind of game? Its terrible to watch even if there legal which of course they are not all.
I dont want to take from Limerick just because they are playing so well now but a lot of hurling people are finding the game a bit boring these days.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 19/01/2021 17:06:35
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I originated the thread and can assure you that clipping Limerick wings was no where near the topic at hand.
My preferred solution to the handpass - only allow 'hand, to hurl, to palmed pass' - the ruck is still the problem ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 19/01/2021 23:27:36
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Replying To CiarraiMick: " Replying To seventyniner: " eplying To Oldtourman: "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today." It is hard to make an argument against what you say but I'll try. I was at many great matches back in the seventies, eighties and nineties and remember coming out from them drained and elated/devastated at what I witnessed. When TG4 started showing these matches a few years ago I eagerly looked forward to them but after watching them was left severely disappointed. The problem is we are looking at them from a 2021 perspective, and cameras dont capture atmosphere or excitement. Nowadays surfaces are better, camera work is better, players are fitter and all individuallity coached out of them, so we have a pretty good idea what to expect at any match.ie posession hurling, lots of rucks, retain possession at all costs, handpass/throw the ball around till you set up your shooter, and thats before I get into the pulling and dragging with the free hand, and also that dreaded word turnovers. I know i'm going totally against the grain here but I dont think that todays players are more skillful. They are faster, fitter, can hit the ball further ( albeit with a shorter hurl and a lighter more high quality ball). The ball travells faster and the one skill that they have over their predecessors is killing/controlling the ball with the first touch. Against that theres no one able to pull on the ball on the ground (hurl too short). I think Seamus Callanan is the only forward in the country that would have scored that goal against Wexford in 2019 as all others would have to get the ball into their hand. The skill of doubling on the ball in the air is gone forever. (Ring is probably turning in his grave). There is a lot of catching the ball high in the air now, but I would not consider that a skill as it is easy to catch a sliotar when you know that there are no flailing hurls and no risk of injury. In the past the fielders were few and far between as there could be serious consequences. That is why I have always admired Tony Doran, Joe McKenna, Ray Cummins and a few others as it was always a case of no pain no gain with them. To get back to the original point of the post, hurling is probably a better game now but it is not for me. I find it totally devoid of excitement. I watched the Galway Kilkenny under 21 game before Christmas and it was depressing. This was the grade that always gave us the best quality hurling. Everything in this life ages badly except music maybe. Look at all the old soccer matches and rugby matches and these that we thought were great at the time also look desperate to the modern eye. I'm not one that thinks that everything was great in my day and sh*te since and I accept that every game has to evolve but I think hurling peaked about 10 years ago ( I consider the 2009 All ireland as probably the best game I've seen). I think of the memorable games that I was lucky enough to have seen and even though they have not aged well, I still think they were great."
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 20/01/2021 14:55:47
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Yes, I can also rattle off the finalists in the 70s and 80s in both codes as well, but can't for many more recent - and yes, I'm getting old.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2592 - 20/01/2021 17:36:52
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